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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 09:48 am
I am not sure who you are trying to impress other than those who already side with you in the first place with all these meaningless cartoons, but with so much of them in all the threads, I am not so sure they are not spam.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 09:51 am
I share what I think is george's opinion that Israel is unlikely to welcome non-Jewish citizens even should all non-Jews in the Middle East recognize its right to exist.

Surely some Palestinian has, internally, made the argument that they need only recognize Israel and then wait for demographic forces to insure that Israel eventually become a muslim nation

Just as surely there have been violent fanatics that dismiss such a tactic out of hand, but I suspect there is also a more cunning lot that appreciate that while this is a very attractive ploy, the Israelis will never allow it to happen, and once they have recognized Israel's right to existence, any further acts of violence (in the strange ways of international politics) will be more readily seen as acts of war or rebellion, rather than resistance.

Again, I think that more cunning lot is correct.

Clearly Israel is not so enamoured of peace that it will allow itself to be transformed into a muslim nation through peaceful means.

This is the dilemma for Israel.

It is fundamentally and unalterably a jewish state.

We can argue whether or not this is just, but the fact remains that it is.

Should the nation, for whatever reason, cease to be a jewish state, it will no longer be Israel in spirit or, I suspect, in name.

Unless there is a dramatic increase in the birth rate among jewish Israelis, "creative" and probably controversial steps will have to be taken or continued to preserve Israel as a jewish state.

The majority of jews who are likely to emigrate to Israel are bound to be either poor and oppressed and/or religious zealots, and they are not likely, for either religious or economic reasons to welcome low income muslim citizens into their new home.

Why would a liberal Reform jew of means in the US give all this country has to offer for a land of personal peril? He may very well lend whatever support he can to the survival of Israel as a jewish state, but it's unlikely he will be willing to provide it with what it really needs - more jews.

It would seem that the best case scenario for Israel is a stable, peaceful Palestinian nation which is comfortable building it's economy on the back of guest-workers in Israel who are never considered for citizenship.

Existing non-Jewish citizens will need to be elevated, as quickly as possible, to a status of educational and economic privilege and thereby slow their reproduction.

The interesting question I ask myself and others is at what point does Israel no longer receive the benefit of "global affirmative action?" As long as Palestinian madmen blow themselves up in Israeli malls and terrorist states like Iran bankroll terrorist organizations in their attacks against the nation, they will likely continue to receive the benefits, but what happens if and when peace actually arrives and the goal is to preserve Israel from demographic and economic forces rather than those of the aggressor?
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 09:59 am
What about the issue of holy sites? It is a topic which gets ignored in these conversations, but is critical to the eventual solution.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 10:10 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
What about the issue of holy sites? It is a topic which gets ignored in these conversations, but is critical to the eventual solution.

Cycloptichorn


The issue of holy sites is wrapped up in the issue of national identity. Israel is not much of a jewish state if jewish holy sites are turned over to muslims.

From a position of pure equity however, muslims, with "one of the holiest sites in Islam" cropping up all over the world don't have much of a case when faced with a people whose entire collection of holy sites reside in one small square of earth.

Of course the day muslims approach religious issues with anything like equity in mind...
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 10:15 am
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
What about the issue of holy sites? It is a topic which gets ignored in these conversations, but is critical to the eventual solution.

Cycloptichorn


The issue of holy sites is wrapped up in the issue of national identity. Israel is not much of a jewish state if jewish holy sites are turned over to muslims.

From a position of pure equity however, muslims, with "one of the holiest sites in Islam" cropping up all over the world don't have much of a case when faced with a people whose entire collection of holy sites reside in one small square of earth.

Of course the day muslims approach religious issues with anything like equity in mind...


I don't disagree. But there will have to be some sort of shared arrangement worked out - or I doubt we'll see peace any time soon.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 10:25 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
What about the issue of holy sites? It is a topic which gets ignored in these conversations, but is critical to the eventual solution.

Cycloptichorn


The issue of holy sites is wrapped up in the issue of national identity. Israel is not much of a jewish state if jewish holy sites are turned over to muslims.

From a position of pure equity however, muslims, with "one of the holiest sites in Islam" cropping up all over the world don't have much of a case when faced with a people whose entire collection of holy sites reside in one small square of earth.

Of course the day muslims approach religious issues with anything like equity in mind...


I don't disagree. But there will have to be some sort of shared arrangement worked out - or I doubt we'll see peace any time soon.

Cycloptichorn


I doubt we will see peace any time soon.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 10:56 am
One of the reasons that Israel will not give up control of any part of Jerusalem involves religious sites. Before the '67 war, the Muslim desecrated every holy Jewish site under their control. The Western Wall overlooked a tawdry market, and an ancient Jewish cemetery was paved.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 11:13 am
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Clearly Israel is not so enamoured of peace that it will allow itself to be transformed into a muslim nation through peaceful means.

This is the dilemma for Israel.

It is fundamentally and unalterably a jewish state.

We can argue whether or not this is just, but the fact remains that it is.

Should the nation, for whatever reason, cease to be a jewish state, it will no longer be Israel in spirit or, I suspect, in name.

Unless there is a dramatic increase in the birth rate among jewish Israelis, "creative" and probably controversial steps will have to be taken or continued to preserve Israel as a jewish state.


Finn has stated the essential points of the Israeli perspective.

The issue for the United States is whether support for a state that so defines and characterizes itself is compatable with American law, values and practice. The answer is clearly no.

The rationale offered to justify a modern state based on such backward and regressive principles is typically the alleged need for a refuge for Jews who otherwise would be subject to universal, continuing persecution and worse.

However the rather amazing failure of Jews throughout the world to emigrate to Israel - in the absence of other unrelated hardships - is rather vivid testimony that there is no such need -at least in the perception of the majority of the Jews in the world.

The history of mankind is full of horror, persecution, oppression and death - inflicted by one nation, group, tribe, religion on another, generally for a monotonous list of similar reasons, usually adding up to nothing more than greed, fear, and intolerance.

The persecutions of Jews in Europe, from Medieval times to the modern age have been vivid and occasionally truly horrible. However they should be considered in the context of other like events -- the persecutions of Diocletian; the ravages of the Goths and later the Vikings; the persecution of the Albegensian heretics in France; the struggles attendant to the Thirty Years War and other like religious conflicts. In the recent age we need look no farther than the Soviet treatment of Volga Germans, the Crimean Tatars and farmers in Ukraine; the extermination of the landowning class in revolutionary China; the extermination of millions in Cambodia merely because they had adopted some elements of modern life; the tribal genocide in southern Nigeria during the 1960s against the Ibos; the massacres in Rwanda. And, of course there is the Holocaust - an event which involved murder on a similar scale, but which combined with the methods and apparatus of a very modern state, long thought of as very progressive, reminded everyone of the dark possibilities that persist in the human spirit.

Shall every group, tribe, religion, etc that has been the victim of such acts require a piece of the world in which they can be "safe" behind walls built of the same intolerance that once injured them? The obvious conclusion is that there is no such "safety" to be found behind such walls, and there is no practical possibility of building them for every group that has been so oppressed. Indeed such attempts usually end up creating - for others - worse injustices than those from which their perpetrators were trying to escape,

We have been repeatedly propagandized into the belief that Israel is an indispensable strategic ally. This idea is palpably false. Israel is and has long been a huge burden to the United States, economically, politically and in terms of our strategic posture with states and sections of the world that represented truly serious threats to us. In most cases the supposed benefits of the strategic relation have been in partly aiding us in the management of threats that arose directly as a consequence of our support for their oppression of others.

Just as bad, our unqualified support for Israel has been harmful to it. This unquestioning support has been a significant factor in the otherwise unexplainable failure of that otherwise very progressive state to come to grips with the contradictions on which it is based and the dilemmas they create for it today.

The 'First law of Holes' is -- 'When you are in one, stop digging.'

We should stop digging.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 11:24 am
If I were a Jew, I would not move to Israel for the very simple reason that Muslim terrorists are far more likely to blow up the bus I am on in Jerusalem then in NYC.

I can't believe you would use "However the rather amazing failure of Jews throughout the world to emigrate to Israel" as some sort of justification for anything George. It's dangerous there. Not because of Israeli policy, but because of Muslim policy. The Muslim policy of eradicating Israel.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 11:27 am
That can't be a real argument, McG: from the very first (new) Jewish colonialism in Palestine in 1837 onwards until today it had been more dangerous there than in NYC.
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 11:29 am
I understand that many Israelis want out of the country. After all, Muslims now have the bomb, and will eventually use it even though many fellow Muslims would be incinerated.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 12:28 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Ican writes
Quote:
The Palestinian Arabs have yet to even acknowledge Israel's right to exist much less Israel's right to resist.


I intended to write EXIST rather than RESIST, but in a way both are applicable I guess. Smile


I think it fortuitous that you typed RESIST rather than EXIST. It encourages emphasizing that currently Israeli RESISTANCE is necessary for maintaining Israeli EXISTANCE. Furthermore, it encourages recognizing that the Israelis are the best judges of how best to RESIST in order to continue to EXIST. Certainly, the Palestinian Arabs are the worst judges of how Israel should best RESIST in order to continue to EXIST.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 01:02 pm
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 01:11 pm
In view of what has already happened to them, it seems to me that the Palestinian Arabs, Christians and others have every bit as much to fear for their own continued existence - or realistically, much more - than do the Israelis for their own. The body count among Israelis and Palestinians is very disproportionately weighted to the Palestinian side.

You are merely reciting the thin rationalization Zionists have used for the last forty years to divert attention from the systematic displacement of Palestinians from their land, property and political rights - all done by the expansionist Zionist elements in Israeli society.

The question is not so much Israel's right to exist per se as it is its continued right to exist as an exclusively Jewish (or forever Jewish dominated) state in a region in which the majority of the inhabitants are not Jews.

Is the Palestinian resistance directed at the lives of the Jewish inhabitants themselves or at the systematic injustice the state they created has done to them - and professes to do forever? Israeli propaganda would have us believe it is exclusively the former. However, there is no factual basis for that assertion - just as there is no factual basis on which to demonstrate that Israeli policy is not also based on an intent to exterminate the Palestinians.
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 01:15 pm
Foxfyre, I never thought I would agree with you on anything. However, your posts on this thread are very cogent and accurate.

I do feel, however, that the USA will continue to provide significant aid to Israel. Contrary to the views of some on this thread, we get a very big bang for the buck relative to Israel. For instance, during the Cold War, analysts have said that the benefit from the aid we provided Israel was about equal to the benefit from our bases in Germany, the cost of which was a large multiple of the aid given Israel.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 01:23 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
In view of what has already happened to them, it seems to me that the Palestinian Arabs, Christians and others have every bit as much to fear for their own continued existence - or realistically, much more - than do the Israelis for their own. The body count among Israelis and Palestinians is very disproportionately weighted to the Palestinian side.

You are merely reciting the thin rationalization Zionists have used for the last forty years to divert attention from the systematic displacement of Palestinians from their land, property and political rights - all done by the expansionist Zionist elements in Israeli society.

The question is not so much Israel's right to exist per se as it is its continued right to exist as an exclusively Jewish (or forever Jewish dominated) state in a region in which the majority of the inhabitants are not Jews.

Is the Palestinian resistance directed at the lives of the Jewish inhabitants themselves or at the systematic injustice the state they created has done to them - and professes to do forever? Israeli propaganda would have us believe it is exclusively the former. However, there is no factual basis for that assertion - just as there is no factual basis on which to demonstrate that Israeli policy is not also based on an intent to exterminate the Palestinians.


Yes, Israel is considerably more efficient beating up on the Palestinians than the Palestinians have been beating up on the Israelis. Surely you aren't one of the--shall we say reasonableness challenged?--who actually think that if there is unequal collateral damage, the one who experiences the most is automatically the victim of oppression?

The fact is, that when Israel is left alone, nobody has to fear that Israelis will kill them or harm them in any way.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 01:27 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
In view of what has already happened to them, it seems to me that the Palestinian Arabs, Christians and others have every bit as much to fear for their own continued existence - or realistically, much more - than do the Israelis for their own. The body count among Israelis and Palestinians is very disproportionately weighted to the Palestinian side.

You are merely reciting the thin rationalization Zionists have used for the last forty years to divert attention from the systematic displacement of Palestinians from their land, property and political rights - all done by the expansionist Zionist elements in Israeli society.

The question is not so much Israel's right to exist per se as it is its continued right to exist as an exclusively Jewish (or forever Jewish dominated) state in a region in which the majority of the inhabitants are not Jews.

Is the Palestinian resistance directed at the lives of the Jewish inhabitants themselves or at the systematic injustice the state they created has done to them - and professes to do forever? Israeli propaganda would have us believe it is exclusively the former. However, there is no factual basis for that assertion - just as there is no factual basis on which to demonstrate that Israeli policy is not also based on an intent to exterminate the Palestinians.



George, you are continuing to spout nonsense. The casualties among the Pals are about double the Israeli casualties. After all, Israel has a modern army.

Israel has not systematically displaced Pals. The former's settlements, which are being dismantled, were placed on barren land owned by no one.

Israel is an independent country and has the right to be slightly theocratic. Most Muslim countries are extremely theocratic, but I never see you objecting to this. You are silent on this even though minorities, such as Christians, are persecuted and driven out.

Israel certainly doesn't persecute its Arab citizens, who are prospering, and not fleeing the country.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 01:30 pm
Advocate wrote:
Contrary to the views of some on this thread, we get a very big bang for the buck relative to Israel. For instance, during the Cold War, analysts have said that the benefit from the aid we provided Israel was about equal to the benefit from our bases in Germany, the cost of which was a large multiple of the aid given Israel.


A truly laughable proposition. What benefits? What "analysts"? The principal "benefit" we got from Germany during the Cold War was the strength of its economy, and the military forces of the FRG itself. American forces were hardly the majority of the NATO order of battle, and the bases iin Germany were largely paid for by the FRG, not the United States.

I believe the otherwise incongruous junction of the views of Foxfyre and Advocate on this issue (to which Advocate referred) is most obviously explained by the duality of the standards and principles that Advocate applies to Israel and everything else.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 01:44 pm
Quote:

I simply cannot see how it is so wrong, backward, or anything else for the Jewis to have a tiny little place in the world intended to receive those Jews who need or want a friendly place to go.


That's not what Israel is at all, not one bit. Or else they wouldn't have picked the 'tiny little place in the world' which just happens to be the major religious worship sites for two other religions.

Advocate
Quote:

Israel has not systematically displaced Pals. The former's settlements, which are being dismantled, were placed on barren land owned by no one.


This is pure, 100% bullsh*t. The Israelis have gone to great lengths to keep the Palestinians from having a contiguous and self-sustainable country.

Cycloptichorn
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Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 01:49 pm
Cyclo, what nonsense! Israel has begged the Pals to sit down and work out something leading to a Pal state. The Pals won't even offer a map, since this would effectively recognize that there is, and should be, a state of Israel.
0 Replies
 
 

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