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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Dec, 2006 07:16 pm
Quote:
Israel Did it! When in doubt, shout about Israel.
By Victor Davis Hanson National Review on Line

These are strange times.

Perennially beleaguered Israel, for instance, was hit all summer long
with rockets from Lebanon and Gaza, as the world watched and kept
score in an absurd new game of proportionality: Israel was to be
blamed because its hundreds of air strikes against combatants were
lethal, while Hezbollah was to be excused for shooting off thousands
of rockets aimed at civilians because of its relative incompetence.

This week Iran hosted an international conference on Holocaust denial.
The gathering was as bizarre as a bar out of Star Wars, a collection
of every crackpot anti-Semite the world over, all there for a
scripted, tightly controlled hatefest advertised as a "free" exchange
of ideas unknown in Europe.

Jimmy Carter, silent about Iran's latest promotion for its planned
holocaust, is hawking his latest book — in typical fashion, sorta,
kinda alleging that the Israelis are like the South Africans in
perpetuating an apartheid state, that they are cruel to many
Christians, and, as occupiers, are understandably the targets of
suicide bombers and other terrorist killers. Sadly, all that shields
this wrinkled-browed, lip-biting moralist from complete infamy is
sympathy for a man bewildered in his dotage.

Meanwhile, some members of the Iraqi Study Group apparently think that
since Israel's neocon surrogates got us into Iraq, their puppet master
must pay the price for getting us out. Thus, Israel must give up the
Golan Heights, or perhaps the West Bank, since that would make the
Islamic nations so collectively happy that they would join us in
ridding Iraq of the terrorists whom many of these nations have
subsidized, trained, and sheltered.

The surprise is no longer that the cretin Mahmoud Ahmadinejad calls
for the destruction of Israel, but only that his serial threats have
still not become banal. In any language, there can be only so many
synonyms and idioms for "wipe-out" and "vanish," yet Ahmadinejad
always finds some fresh way to express his fundamental desire.

In Washington, realists are back, and they have a point: Israel really
does remain at the heart of the furor of the Middle East — just not in
the way they suppose.

It is not "stolen" land, or "Zionist" killings, or Jewish "aggression"
that gnaws at the Arab Street. And the solution is therefore not to be
found in short-term Israeli land-concessions, but only in the now
caricatured and apparently waning policy of supporting democratic
reform inside the Middle East.

Why?

The real problem is that Israeli success ,and the resulting sense of
failure in the surrounding Arab world, fuels much of the rabid hatred.
Many of us have been writing exactly that for years and have been
dubbed novices — and worse — who don't understand the complex
undercurrents of the Middle East. In January 2004, for example, I
suggested in passing the following on these pages:

Instead, [Israel] stoked the fury arising from Arabs' sense of
weakness and self-contemp t. In the world of the Palestinian lobster
bucket, Israel's great sin is not bellicosity or aggression, but
succeeding beyond the wildest dreams of its neighbors. How humiliating
it must be to be incapable of even muttering the word "Israel" (hence
the need for "Zionist entity"), but nevertheless preferring an Israeli
to a Palestinian ID card.

To suggest primordial envy as a cause of the present conundrum is to
be written off as a reductionist by the realists and Arabists of the
State Department.

Most instead insist that the return of the Golan Heights and the West
Bank would at last inaugurate the missing peace in a way the
unilateral Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon and Gaza so far have not.

As with the writings and rantings of bin Laden and Dr. Zawahiri, these
experts should perhaps listen to what is actually being said by the
prominent Palestinians themselves — not what we keep thinking they
should say.

They might examine, for instance, an excerpt from the recent
statements of the Palestinian-born Al-Jazeera editor-in-chief, Ahmed
Sheikh, who granted an interview this month with Pierre Heumann, the
Middle East correspondent of the Swiss weekly Die Weltwoche. He is not
a mere propagandist, but a keen and influential observer of the
current Arab temperament.

Sheikh: In many Arab states, the middle class is disappearing. The
rich get richer and the poor get still poorer. Look at the schools in
Jordan, Egypt or Morocco: You have up to 70 youngsters crammed
together in a single classroom. How can a teacher do his job in such
circumstances? The public hospitals are also in a hopeless condition.
These are just examples. They show how hopeless the situation is for
us in the Middle East.

Heumann: Who is responsible for the situation?

Sheikh: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the most
important reasons why these crises and problems continue to simmer.
The day when Israel was founded created the basis for our problems.
The West should finally come to understand this. Everything would be
much calmer if the Palestinians were given their rights.

Heumann: Do you mean to say that if Israel did not exist, there
would suddenly be democracy in Egypt, that the schools in Morocco
would be better, that the public clinics in Jordan would function
better?

Sheikh: I think so.

Heumann: Can you please explain to me what the Israeli-Palestinian
conflict has to do with these problems?

Sheikh: The Palestinian cause is central for Arab thinking.

Heumann: In the end, is it a matter of feelings of self-esteem?

Sheikh: Exactly. It's because we always lose to Israel. It gnaws
at the people in the Middle East that such a small country as Israel,
with only about 7 million inhabitants, can defeat the Arab nation with
its 350 million. That hurts our collective ego. The Palestinian
problem is in the genes of every Arab. The West's problem is that it
does not understand this.

How strange that Mr. Sheikh, if for the wrong reasons, has
inadvertently echoed the neoconservative thesis that only with
fundamental reform will come Arab prosperity — a progress that in turn
will bolster the "collective ego" enough for Arabs to forget an Israel
that seems to "gnaw" at the Middle East.

Elsewhere in the interview Ahmed Sheikh, who enjoys a prominent role
in forming recent public opinion throughout the Arab world, is largely
prescient about the West's misunderstanding of the "genes of every
Arab." As we see with the latest return of the surrealists to foreign
policy influence, we surely do not understand the depths or causes of
Arab and Muslim psychological exasperation with Israel.

Thus Jim Baker & Co. or a Jimmy Carter apparently assumes that Ahmed
Sheikh's dreamlike Arab version of middle class tax cuts, No Child
Left Behind, or Open Enrollments for HMOs will usher peace to the
region if only Israel would concede what its enemies demand or
disappear entirely.

This is utter nonsense, precisely because Arab detestation of Israel
is a symptom, not the malady, of the current Arab crisis of the
spirit. Ahmed Sheikh himself stumbles onto that truth. To gain the
necessary maturity and self-confidence that would mitigate
scapegoating Israel, the Arab Middle East would have to make vast
structural changes in traditional Islamic society that would usher in
freedom, prosperity, and security.

In other words, new Arab consensual societies would have to create the
sort of landscape that they see elsewhere in Europe, Asia, North
America, and Israel when they turn on their satellite TVs and browse
the internet — and also understand that such success came from within,
not merely from foreign aid or the accidental discovery of oil beneath
their feet.

And what would that landscape look like?

Something along the lines of what the West has been attempting in both
Afghanistan and Iraq: freedom of the press, alliance to the state
rather than to the tribe, constitutional government, tolerance for
diverse opinion and belief, equality of the sexes, an open economy,
and government transparency to ensure the protection of capital and
investment.

Meet even a partial list of all that, and soon an economy would
prosper without oil; schools would teach knowledge rather than hatred,
bias, and religious superstition; and clinics might have their own
competently trained and equipped medical personnel.

Palestine really is the touchstone of the Middle East, insofar as it
is a valuable window into the minds and hearts of Middle Easterners.
The sources of Arab anger about Israel should remind us of the need
both to keep pressuring Middle East governments to reform and to
continue trying to stabilize Iraq in hopes that something can emerge
there different from the theocracy to its south, the autocracy to its
west, and the monarchies to its east.

Finally, there is yet another irony to Mr. Sheikh's lamentations
(which we will apparently soon be privileged to hear, when al Jazeera
goes live in English throughout the West): Where alone in the Middle
East is there his dream of an Arab middle class of sorts? Where do
Arabs have good schools? And where is there adequate medical care?

Ask the over one million Palestinians who live in a democratic Israel.

— Victor Davis Hanson is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution. He
is the author, most recently, of A War Like No Other. How the
Athenians and Spartans Fought the Peloponnesian War.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 11:19 am
Wow Ican. So now, according to Hanson's essay, it's Israel's success that is so demoralizing the Arabs that they don't have the will to improve their schools, healthcare, and human rights in their countries? And if Israel ceased to exist, the Arabs would suddenly have so much new self esteem that they would have good schools and healthcare and a wonderful democratic environment for all their citizens?

You'll have to admit that's certainly a new wrinkle in the equation. Smile
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 12:55 pm
Foxfyre wrote:

Wow Ican.
...
You'll have to admit that's certainly a new wrinkle in the equation. Smile

Lots of us have believed this for a long time: "To suggest primordial envy as a cause of the present conundrum is to be written off as a reductionist by the realists and Arabists of the State Department."

What is astonishing to me is that a prominent Arab admits by clear and unambiguous implication that their "primordial envy" is the fundamental cause of Arab behavior.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 12:58 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:

Wow Ican.
...
You'll have to admit that's certainly a new wrinkle in the equation. Smile

Lots of us have believed this for a long time: "To suggest primordial envy as a cause of the present conundrum is to be written off as a reductionist by the realists and Arabists of the State Department."

What is astonishing to me is that a prominent Arab admits by clear and unambiguous implication that their "primordial envy" is the fundamental cause of Arab behavior.


Do you really believe that though? Do you believe they are actually immobilized and thus unable to progress because of their hatred of Israel's success? Or is it their inability (i.e. unwillingness) to join the modern world that causes them to hate Israel because it has succeeded while they could not? Chicken or egg?
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 05:42 pm
Good article on Iranian politics.

http://mondediplo.com/2006/12/04iran

Quote:
The break in diplomatic relations between Tehran and Washington dates back more than 25 years. The new conservative generation of political and military elite is therefore profoundly anti-US, if not anti-western. The feeling is that the West intends to eliminate the Islamic Republic, and the only way to avoid that is by having a nuclear capability. Officially Iran claims that it does not want a nuclear bomb, but access to uranium enrichment technology is perceived as vital to ensure Iran's independence in the event of a crisis in supplies of enriched uranium from the West, and to preserve its role as a regional power.

Iranian leaders are feeling encircled. Israel, Pakistan and India have the atom bomb, and all three are, to varying degrees, allies of the US. The collapse of the former Soviet Union has given birth to new central Asian states on the borders with Iran that are also in the US sphere of influence. And there are US troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Still popular abroad
Ahmadinejad may no longer be as popular in Iran as he was but he is very much appreciated in the Muslim world, despite being a Shia. His condemnation of US policy and Israeli hegemony in Lebanon, Egypt, North Africa and Pakistan has gained him much sympathy among ordinary Arabs. The unilateralism of the US, its alignment with Israel, its refusal to recognise the popularity of Hizbullah in Lebanon or of Hamas in the Palestinian territories, worry many Muslim countries. Ahmadinejad likes to think he represents them, sometimes against the wishes of their own governments. That also lies behind his unacceptable harangues on the elimination of Israel and the genocide of the Jews.

By including Iran in his "axis of evil", President George Bush severely restricted negotiating room. US concessions on the nuclear issue are too little and too late and have been suspected by the Iranians. US attempts to foment revolt among ethnic minorities such as the Azeri, Balouch, Arabs and Kurds have further convinced the Iranian government that it cannot trust the US (2). By eliminating Iran's traditional enemies, Saddam Hussein in Iraq and the Taliban in Afghanistan, Washington has succeeded in increasing Tehran's political and military influence.

The sanctions response to North Korea's nuclear test, the success of Hizbullah in Lebanon and US failures in Iraq and Afghanistan have all convinced a large faction of the conservative political elite that it is possible to hold out against US sovereignty, the more so since high oil prices will protect the regime from any major economic crisis.

The possibility of an agreement with China (hungry for oil) and Russia (in search of nuclear and military contracts), both seeking to assert themselves in the eyes of the US, have made new alliances possible. These should buffer Iran from harsh decisions by the Security Council. The likelihood of US military intervention in Iran is not taken seriously, given the chaos in Iraq and Israel's inability to break the resistance of Hizbullah in Lebanon.

The conservatives have been making hay with foreign policy. The US attitude is a blessing for them. Followers of Ayatollah Mesbah Yazdi, especially a fringe of the Pasdaran, are firmly convinced that the crisis will strengthen their position. It allows them to play the national unity card to eliminate the reformists and to revert to the martyr ideology and revolutionary selflessness of the glory days of the Islamic revolution.

From that point of view, the current crisis with the US has made their struggle far easier against proponents of political detente at home and against "infidel and anti-Islamic" imperialism abroad.


Bush does have a way of helping our enemies. He's very good at that.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 05:42 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:

Wow Ican.
...
You'll have to admit that's certainly a new wrinkle in the equation. Smile

Lots of us have believed this for a long time: "To suggest primordial envy as a cause of the present conundrum is to be written off as a reductionist by the realists and Arabists of the State Department."

What is astonishing to me is that a prominent Arab admits by clear and unambiguous implication that their "primordial envy" is the fundamental cause of Arab behavior.


Do you really believe that though? Do you believe they are actually immobilized and thus unable to progress because of their hatred of Israel's success? Or is it their inability (i.e. unwillingness) to join the modern world that causes them to hate Israel because it has succeeded while they could not? Chicken or egg?

I believe there are five primary causes of the failure of so many Arabs to abandon savagery and choose civility:
(1) their envy of those who have accomplished more than they have has crippled their willingness to emulate those who have accomplished more;
(2) their adherence to a religion which they believe guarantees them a glorious reward after their death, if they die murdering non-believers;
(3) their adherence to the idea that they own all the lands their ancestors previously conquered, but were subsequently conquered by others;
(4) their unwillingness to risk retribution from their fellows for any divergence from their adherence to their public's accepted values;
(5) their subsidization by others that they interpret as their just reward for not changing -- subsidizers generally get more of what they subsidize.

A common trait exhibited by those who suffer from pernicious envy is their compulsion to blame those they envy rather than themselves for the consequences of their own actions. Also, they are inclined to abandon their own self-interest in their compulsion to harm those they envy.

However, thousands of Arabs who have taken the significant risk to abandon and flee their savage environment have eagerly and effectively chosen civility.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Dec, 2006 03:38 am
http://i12.tinypic.com/44iip2w.jpg
(source: The Guardian, 23.12.2006, page 25)
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Dec, 2006 10:10 am
BBB
This is a long article, but a must read if you want to see the future if we are not wise and if the Congress does not do a better job:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=88836&highlight=
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Dec, 2006 06:54 pm
Re: BBB
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
This is a long article, but a must read if you want to see the future if we are not wise and if the Congress does not do a better job:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=88836&highlight=

I read the entire article. It doesn't compute!

It accuses the US of violating international law by invading countries that did not attack us (they merely happened to be hosts of a group that did attack us). What international law is that? Is it law established by an international treaty among nations? If so which treaty? Or is it opinion established by one or more advocacy groups? The article, like others that have made the same allegation, doesn't say.

OK! I'll assume here Scott Ritter is correct when he claims Iran is not developing nuclear weapons, and is correct when he claims our government's belief that Iran is developing nuclear weapons will nevertheless lead our government to attack Iran.

Why then is amadinnyjad (sic) claiming Iran is developing nuclear weapons? Why then is he claiming Iran will use those weapons once developed to first exterminate Israel and subsequently attack the US? Does he want to encourage the US and/or Israel to attack Iran so he will have an excuse for shutting off Iranian oil? Is he truly interested in losing his oil revenue and perhaps his life too? Or is he trying to trick the US government into launching a winless war with the objective of his gaining world power after causing the US to drain its "super power;" the loss of which will prevent the US from preventing his gaining world power?

Ritter's allegations appear to me to be at best fantasy, and at worst Ritter's way of helping to elect more DINO Democrats and/or RINO Republicans.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Dec, 2006 07:01 pm
Quote:
Why then is amadinnyjad (sic) claiming Iran is developing nuclear weapons? Why then is he claiming Iran will use those weapons once developed to first exterminate Israel and subsequently attack the US? Does he want to encourage the US and/or Israel to attack Iran so he will have an excuse for shutting off Iranian oil? Is he truly interested in losing his oil revenue and perhaps his life too? Or is he trying to trick the US government into launching a winless war with the objective of his gaining world power after causing the US to drain its "super power;" the loss of which will prevent the US from preventing his gaining world power?


How hard is it to understand?

"When your enemy is of a choleric temper, goad him."

-Sun Tzu

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Dec, 2006 07:51 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Why then is amadinnyjad (sic) claiming Iran is developing nuclear weapons? Why then is he claiming Iran will use those weapons once developed to first exterminate Israel and subsequently attack the US? Does he want to encourage the US and/or Israel to attack Iran so he will have an excuse for shutting off Iranian oil? Is he truly interested in losing his oil revenue and perhaps his life too? Or is he trying to trick the US government into launching a winless war with the objective of his gaining world power after causing the US to drain its "super power;" the loss of which will prevent the US from preventing his gaining world power?


How hard is it to understand?

"When your enemy is of a choleric temper, goad him."

-Sun Tzu

Cycloptichorn


But when your enemy has the power to totally obliterate you and your country,and you can do nothing to prevent it,prudence suggests not goading them.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Dec, 2006 07:53 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Why then is amadinnyjad (sic) claiming Iran is developing nuclear weapons? Why then is he claiming Iran will use those weapons once developed to first exterminate Israel and subsequently attack the US? Does he want to encourage the US and/or Israel to attack Iran so he will have an excuse for shutting off Iranian oil? Is he truly interested in losing his oil revenue and perhaps his life too? Or is he trying to trick the US government into launching a winless war with the objective of his gaining world power after causing the US to drain its "super power;" the loss of which will prevent the US from preventing his gaining world power?


How hard is it to understand?

"When your enemy is of a choleric temper, goad him."

-Sun Tzu

Cycloptichorn

"Goad him" to do what?
"Goad him" to try and destroy you Question Shocked

Maybe you think so! I don't think so!
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Dec, 2006 11:22 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Why then is amadinnyjad (sic) claiming Iran is developing nuclear weapons? Why then is he claiming Iran will use those weapons once developed to first exterminate Israel and subsequently attack the US? Does he want to encourage the US and/or Israel to attack Iran so he will have an excuse for shutting off Iranian oil? Is he truly interested in losing his oil revenue and perhaps his life too? Or is he trying to trick the US government into launching a winless war with the objective of his gaining world power after causing the US to drain its "super power;" the loss of which will prevent the US from preventing his gaining world power?


How hard is it to understand?

"When your enemy is of a choleric temper, goad him."

-Sun Tzu

Cycloptichorn


"Bring it on."
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Dec, 2006 11:47 am
"Bring it on."

Famous last words of George W Bush. They brought it on, and Bush is now struggling with his presidency.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Dec, 2006 12:48 pm
iran just wants to join the "nuclear club" - anyone objecting to pakistan's membership ?
hbg
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Dec, 2006 02:39 pm
hamburger wrote:
iran just wants to join the "nuclear club" - anyone objecting to pakistan's membership ?
hbg


Or Israel?
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Dec, 2006 06:45 pm
Could Bush Start Another War?

by Scott Horton
"If the king attacks Persia, he will destroy a great empire." - Delphic Oracle

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/horton.php?articleid=10214 "But Bush can't stop now. He figures his legacy as a disgrace to America and all mankind can be postponed or perhaps somehow even reversed if he could have just a little more time.

Time for what? Could it be that Bush truly intends to carry out the full neoconservative program in the Middle East, complete with more regime changes?"
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Dec, 2006 07:04 pm
It's not past him; he still thinks Iraq is salvageable. There are enough "yes" men around him to make it happen.

Bush and his gang are out to destroy America.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Dec, 2006 07:06 pm
blueflame1 wrote:
Could Bush Start Another War?

Iran? Possibly, if Congress declares it first! Iraq? No, that war continues! But Bush could finish the Iraq one; win, lose or draw.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Dec, 2006 07:13 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:

...
Bush and his gang are out to destroy America.


No! It's that other gang that's out to destroy America. It's the one whose agents keep claiming Bush is out to destroy America.
0 Replies
 
 

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