15
   

ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Nov, 2006 09:34 pm
The answer to all these questions of human shields and targeting civilians are answered Out of all proportion - civilians bear the brunt of the war

(portions relevant)

Quote:
International humanitarian law
International humanitarian law contains the rules and principles that seek to protect those who are not participating in hostilities, notably civilians but also certain combatants, including those who are wounded or captured. It sets out standards of humane conduct and limits the means and methods of conducting military operations. Its central purpose is to limit, to the extent feasible, human suffering in times of armed conflict.

The four Geneva Conventions of 1949 and their two Additional Protocols of 1977 are the principal instruments of international humanitarian law. Israel is a party to the 1949 Geneva Conventions but is not a party to Protocol I relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts. Lebanon is a party to the Geneva Conventions as well as Protocol I.

Hizbullah has itself accepted some of the core rules of international humanitarian law, for example when it accepted the April 1996 agreement which ended a previous outbreak of fighting with Israel. The agreement was aimed at sparing civilian lives while allowing for the hostilities to continue in south Lebanon.(19) Hizbullah reiterated its commitment to this agreement after the recent war.

The fundamental provisions of Protocol I, including the rules cited below, are considered part of customary international law and are therefore binding on all parties to a conflict.





Quote:
Precautions in defence
Warring parties also have obligations to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians and civilian objects under their control against the effects of attacks by the adversary. Protocol I requires each party to avoid locating military objectives within or near densely populated areas (Article 58(b)).

Protocol I also expressly prohibits the use of tactics such as using "human shields" to prevent an attack on military targets. Article 51(7) states:
"The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations. The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations."

Intentionally shielding a military objective using civilians is a war crime.(27)

However, the Protocol also makes it clear that even if one side is shielding itself behind civilians, such a violation "Â…shall not release the Parties to the conflict from their legal obligations with respect to the civilian population and civilians."

Furthermore, Article 50(3) states that:
"The presence within the civilian population of individuals who do not come within the definition of civilians does not deprive the population of its civilian character."

As indicated by the ICRC in its authoritative commentary:
"In wartime conditions it is inevitable that individuals belonging to the category of combatants become intermingled with the civilian population, for example, soldiers on leave visiting their families. However, provided that these are not regular units with fairly large numbers, this does not in any way change the civilian character of a population."


Quote:
Prohibition on reprisal and collective punishment
Under Articles 51(6) and 52(1), attacks against the civilian population or civilians or against civilian objects by way of reprisals are expressly prohibited by international humanitarian law and are widely held to be prohibited by customary international law. The fact that one party may have violated the laws of war cannot therefore serve as a basis for an opposing party to engage in unlawful acts, whether to bring the offending party into compliance, or as a means of retaliation or retribution.

According to Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention:
"No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited."


Quote:
Survival of the population and humanitarian access
Attacking, destroying, removing or rendering useless objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population is prohibited (Protocol I, Article 54(2)). The parties to the conflict must allow and facilitate rapid and unimpeded passage of impartial humanitarian relief (Protocol I, Article 70). They must respect and protect medical personnel and their means of transport (Protocol I, Articles 15 and 21).


Quote:
Other weapons used in indiscriminate attacks during this conflict included cluster weapons. Cluster bombs or shells scatter scores of bomblets, or submunitions, over a wide area, typically the size of one or two football fields. These can be dropped by aircraft, or fired by artillery or rocket launchers. Depending on which type of submunition is used, between 5 and 20 per cent of cluster bomblets fail to explode. They are then left behind as explosive remnants of war, posing a threat to civilians similar to anti-personnel landmines. The use of these bombs in areas where there is a concentration of civilians violates the prohibition of indiscriminate attack, because of the wide area covered by the numerous bomblets released and the danger posed to all those, including civilians, who come into contact with the unexploded bomblets.


To me it is obvious that both Hezbollah and Israel broke International Humanitarian law in the war of 2006. Yes, Israel is allowed to defend herself, however within limits ; they went beyond every single limit. Likewise, Hezbollah is guilty of targeting Israeli citizens when it fires those rockets into Israel.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Nov, 2006 10:43 pm
Yep.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Nov, 2006 08:45 am
The difference is that Israel would not have attacked Lebanon if Lebanon had not been firing rockets into Israeli civilian neighborhoods.

Nobody is yet willing to say what Israel IS allowed to do to stop rockets raining down on its citizens nor exactly how one accomplishes that when the other side is firing the rockets from within populated civilian neighborhoods and being supplied through civilian neighborhoods.

When it is you and yours who are under attack by people who intend to injure, maim, and murder you, the legality of means of self defense become a lot less important.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Nov, 2006 09:08 am
Foxfyre wrote:
The difference is that Israel would not have attacked Lebanon if Lebanon had not been firing rockets into Israeli civilian neighborhoods.


This is a lie which you constantly peddle. In the first place, the nation of the Lebanon did not fire rockets into Israel--Hezbollah did that, and only after the Israelis had bombed the Lebanon.

I've posted this before in this thread, and i'll keep posting it as often as necessary:

This ABC News Online article was posted fewer than 24 hours after the two IDF members were snatched by Hezbollah, and clearly shows that Israel held the Lebanon responsible, and " . . . described [the seizure of the IDF members] as an act of war by Lebanon that would draw a "very painful" response." That response was massive air attacks on bridges in the Lebanon which killed at least two civilians and injured at least seven others--which occurred before Hezbollah launched any rockets.

You have to lie about this because you are so hysterically dedicated to your pro-Israeli, anti-Muslim propaganda.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Nov, 2006 09:36 am
Setanta
It is clear that Foxfyre is a charter member of the "Israel can do no wrong" club.

BBB
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Nov, 2006 09:47 am
And, I must follow your continued posting to say that they did so to keep their soldiers from being quickly evacuated from Lebanon into Syria or some other country. Just as the IDF said.

They didn't destroy the bridges and airport on a whim, but to hinder Hezbollah from escaping with their hostages.

Hizbullah attacks northern Israel and Israel's response

Quote:

12 Jul 2006

On July 12, 2006 eight IDF soldiers were killed and two kidnapped on the border with Lebanon, in an attack by the Hizbullah terror organization. Hizbullah simultaneously launched Katyusha rockets against Israeli communities near the border. The IDF responded with Operation Change of Direction.

From July 12 until August 14, when the cease-fire went into effect, 43 Israeli civilians and 117 IDF soldiers were killed.
Two soldiers have been killed in south Lebanon since the August 14 cease-fire.

Israel Police: Since the beginning of the fighting on July 12, 3,970 rockets landed on Israel, 901 of them in urban areas. More than a thousand rockets landed in the Kiryat Shmona area, 808 rockets landed near Nahariya, 471 near Safed, 176 near Carmiel, 106 near Akko, 93 in the Haifa vicinity and 81 near Tiberias.
Health Ministry: Since July 12, 4,262 civilians were treated in hospitals for injuries. Of these, 33 were seriously wounded, 68 moderately and 1,388 lightly. Another 2,773 were treated for shock and anxiety.
During Hizbullah's month-long bombardment of Israel's civilian population, 6,000 homes were hit, 300,000 residents displaced and more than a million were forced to live in shelters. Almost a third of Israel's population - over two million people - were directly exosed to the missile threat.
Federation of Israeli Chambers of Commerce: Businesses in the north lost revenues of NIS 5.9 billion (USD 1.4 billion) as a result of the war.


Israel: Lebanon is Responsible For "Act Of War"

Quote:
Jerusalem----July 12......Israel Prime Minister Ehud Olmert made it perfectly clear today that Lebanon was directly responsible for the firing of Katusha rockets from Lebanon which injured Israel civilians and for the terror group Hezbollah killing and kidnapping IDF soldiers.

Following are Israel Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's remarks at his press conference today with Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi.

Israel Prime Minister Olmert stated: "This morning, actions were carried out against IDF soldiers in the north. At this time, the security forces are operating in Lebanese territory. The Cabinet will convene this evening in order to approve the continuation of the activity. I want to make it clear: This morning's events were not a terrorist attack but the action of a sovereign state that attacked Israel for no reason and without provocation.

The Lebanese government, of which Hizbullah is a member, is trying to undermine regional stability.

Lebanon is responsible and Lebanon will bear the consequences of its actions.

The State of Israel and its citizens now stand in an hour of trial. We have withstood difficult tests in the past, even more difficult and complex than these. We, the State of Israel, the entire nation, will know how to now overcome those who are trying to hurt us."

continued in link
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Nov, 2006 09:47 am
Nothing Right for Israel Since Yitzhak Rabin's Assassination
Nothing Has Gone Right for Israel Since Yitzhak Rabin's Assassination
By Renaud Girard
Le Figaro
Monday 27 November 2006

In the West, all of Israel's sincere friends are right to be very worried today. Since Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin's assassination by a Jewish extremist on November 4, 1995, the Hebrew state suffers from a serious leadership deficit. At the top, there is no longer the least vision, the least long-term strategy, the least policy capable of going beyond electioneering requirements. As the geo-politician Dominique Moisi says, Israel is a country where the people appear to have become rather better than its political-military elites.

In France, we know what it is to have political elites who lack vision, courage, sincerity and effectiveness at the same time. But, with us, the consequences (over-indebtedness, unemployment, zero growth, corporatism, etc.) are not on a scale to put the short term survival of our country into doubt. In Israel, it's very different: the state has a vital need to be led by a quality leadership. It can't allow itself to lose a single battle, at the risk of being "wiped off the map," to re-echo the very words of the vow expressed by Iranian Islamist president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. The ship Israel is not the aircraft carrier France. It is ten times smaller; it sails a ten times more dangerous sea; it won't be given the slightest chance if it smashes against a reef.

Yet, in the last ten years, Israel has given its friends the disagreeable impression of a ship that has lost its captain and will no longer be navigated by anyone but a seaman at the wheel, who has himself turned on the automatic pilot. As the Israeli writer David Grossman said so well in the speech he pronounced in Tel Aviv before 100,000 people on the occasion of the eleventh anniversary of Yitzhak Rabin's death, Israel is in distress because there is no longer any "king." It was reason rather than grief (Grossman's son, Uri, who had chosen to do his military service as a paratrooper, died during the very last days of this summer's war against Hezbollah) that led the intellectual to speak in these terms.

Let's review the political facts of the last decade, which are so many missed strategic orientations, so many missed opportunities for a better future for Israel. No one could reasonably accuse Rabin, the victorious IDF chief of staff for the Six Day War (1967), of not being a valiant patriot, concerned for his country's security. He was assassinated by a fanatic manipulated by extreme right-wing religious milieus that had launched a campaign of denigration against the prime minister, openly accusing him of "treason." His "crime" was to have signed the Oslo peace accords with Arafat in September 1993. In exchange for the PLO's immediate recognition of the state of Israel, both parties made provision for the progressive establishment of a Palestinian state on the Gaza strip and West Bank - that is, on a territory representing 22% of the surface of the Palestinian Mandate (the former Ottoman region entrusted to Great Britain in 1922 by a League of Nations mandate).

Deeming that Palestine in its totality was a gift from God granted to the Jewish people, the Israeli religious extremists conspired for Rabin's elimination. His successor, Shimon Peres, missed the opportunity - furnished by the popular emotion consequent to the prime minister's assassination - to get rid of those religious settlers who have poisoned the life and destroyed the reputation of the Hebrew state for a good third of a century. Why didn't he immediately dismantle the most provocative settlements - and consequently those most costly in security terms - like the one in Hebron, established smack in the middle of Arab existence by raving lunatics from America?

Netanyahu, Peres's successor, was a notorious opponent of the Oslo peace process. He continued it in the most minimalist fashion only, just enough to not openly alienate the Clinton administration. A slick politician, he was able to break the dynamic of the Oslo spirit, which had Israeli-Palestinian trade delegations plowing the Persian Gulf countries and Palestinian MPs creating an "Israeli-Palestinian Friendship Commission" (presided over by Marwan Barghouti, today in prison in Israel). By refusing to extend a friendly hand to the PLO, Netanyahu only strengthened the Hamas Islamists, who also, on their side, think that Palestine is a non-negotiable gift from God, granted, of course, to the Muslim Ummah.

Israel's third great strategic failure was committed in May 2000, by Barak. Not through intransigence, but through haste. Withdrawing from southern Lebanon was not a bad idea in itself. But why not have the patience to wait for the Lebanese Army to be ready to replace the IDF? Hezbollah filled in the vacuum, chanted victory, and called on the Palestinians to renounce the "lures" of negotiation to resume armed combat against "the Zionist enemy."

Fourth cock-up: the Israelis did not have the guts to explain to their American friends at the beginning of 2003 that their useless invasion of Iraq would only safeguard the one truly dangerous country in the region, that is, the mullahs' Iran.

Today, Israel has returned to a disproportionate "firmness" that only makes things worse. Hamas's kidnapping of a soldier on the Gaza boundary, then Hezbollah's capture of two others north of the Galilee, made the IDF - ever more confined to the strategy of collective punishment - lose its nerve. Instead of responding to Syria and the PLO's timid advances, the government integrates a minister from the extreme right into its bosom. As time goes by, hatred of the Israelis only continues to grow in the hearts of its neighboring states' populations. It is urgent that that movement be reversed, if only to guarantee Israel's long-term survival.

"As time goes by, hatred of the Israelis only continues to grow in the hearts of its neighboring states' populations."
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Nov, 2006 09:52 am
McGentrix wrote:
And, I must follow your continued posting to say that they did so to keep their soldiers from being quickly evacuated from Lebanon into Syria or some other country. Just as the IDF said.

They didn't destroy the bridges and airport on a whim, but to hinder Hezbollah from escaping with their hostages.


I'm not a supporter or and admirer of Hezbollah, and my position throughout has been to point out that the Israelis acted callously and criminally with regard to Lebanese civilians. The at least two killed and seven wounded in the attacks on the highway bridges were not members of Hezbollah, and the vast majority of the tens of thousands killed and wounded subsequently were non-combattant civilians, and many of them were Christians.

The Israelis don't even have the fait accompli justification of having secured their objectives. They killed and maimed thousands, and accomplished exactly nothing. Militarily, their operations were failures which rained death on innocents.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Nov, 2006 09:58 am
It is sad that terrorists put civilians in harms way. But, Israel, or any other western country, can not allow terrorists to act without fear of reprisal merely because they hide behind the skirts of their women.

What would you suggest an alternative to be?
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Nov, 2006 09:59 am
...because Israel called the kidnapping an "act of war", doesn't make it so. It was just a means to justifying their wonton killing of innocent civilians in hopes of pinning the occasional member of Hezbollah.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Nov, 2006 10:01 am
candidone1 wrote:
...because Israel called the kidnapping an "act of war", doesn't make it so. It was just a means to justifying their wonton killing of innocent civilians in hopes of pinning the occasional member of Hezbollah.


What a stupid thing to write.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Nov, 2006 10:20 am
McGentrix wrote:
It is sad that terrorists put civilians in harms way. But, Israel, or any other western country, can not allow terrorists to act without fear of reprisal merely because they hide behind the skirts of their women.


This is a standard, witless conservative bit of blather. The attacks on the highway bridges were not attacks on "human shields" behind whom Hezbollah was sheltering. The attacks on the airport in Beirut were not attacks on Hezbollah which killed civilians who were being used as human shields. Cluster bombs sewed "bomblets" all over the coastal region of the Lebanon south of Beirut in areas in which Hezbollah was not even operating. Your thesis conveniently ignores that Israel immediately declared the Lebanon responsible, promised very painful consequences, and attacked without regard to whether or not Hezbollah was in the bomb sights. Had Israel launched a competent, careful attack which specifically targeted Hezbollah, you might have a point. But they didn't--they declared all of the Lebanon resonsible, and started destroying the walls of the house with a sledge-hammer in a futile effort to swat a fly.

Quote:
What would you suggest an alternative to be?


The alternative would have been, first, to have acted in a militarily effective and efficient manner in the first place to assure that Hezbollah raids don't achieve their objectives. The commander of Israeli Defense Forces on the Lebanese border was quietly retired last week.

Second, the IDF might have planned an operation, instead of going off half-cocked. Maj Gen Yiftah Ron-Tal was fired just before retirement for criticizing the manner in which the operation was conducted. Hezbollah has conducted such raids in the past (usually unsuccessful, although they did kidnap one IDF member several years ago), and Israel has not reacted in such an hysterical and irresponsible manner. As i mentioned in my own thread, and in this thread, this entire operation reeks of an off-the-cuff response which the Israeli PM stupidly believed could draw the United States in to an attack on Syria and Iran. He was wrong, and as much as anyone else, the members of the IDF suffered for his stupidity and cupidity--IDF members complained that they had poorly-maintained and outdated equipment, lacked body armor, and were often without food and water. This was an appallingly incompetent operation by any standards, let alone the historically high standards of Israeli military operations.

You just keep peddling your conservative propaganda, though, McG--i know Ican't and Fox will love you for it.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Nov, 2006 10:37 am
The attacks on the bridges and highways and airport were attacks on the infrastructure to keep Hezbollah from escapiong and to keep reinforcements from have quick access. A good strategy and hardly standard, witless blather.

Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government. What actions have the Lebanese government taken to curtail Hezbollahs illegal activities against Israel? Isarael was right in their actions against Lebanon and Hezbollah should take notice of the reprecussions of their actions. Previous negotiations do not guarantee future negotiations and Israel is under no binding law that tells them they must negotiate with terrorists every time they kidnap Israeli soldiers or kill Israeli civilians.

I did not ignore that Israel immediately declared lebanon responsible. In fact, I posted Olmerts press conference that stated that exactly.

They did however, target Hezbollah almost exclusively. They also warned civilians to leave the danger areas. Hezbollah, however, chose to use civilian areas as cover and to launch their missiles from endangering civilians and using their deaths as propaganda against Israel.

Had Hezbollah not kidnapped Israeli soldiers, none of this would have happened. Let's not lose sight of that.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Nov, 2006 10:45 am
There is no real evidence that the soldiers were on the Israeli side of the border when they were captured; therefore, no conclusive way to say who was at fault originally.

Quote:
Isarael was right in their actions against Lebanon and Hezbollah should take notice of the reprecussions of their actions.


Perhaps Israel should take notice of the fact that their military actions failed miserably; Hezbollah sustained no real damage whatsoever, the only people who were really hurt were the citizens of Lebanon, and now anti-Israeli sentiment in Lebanon is higher than ever. Way to go there, guys.

I noticed that none of you righties seem to give a damn about the oil spill which has killed off much of the sea life in the region, caused by Israeli air strikes... because such things simply don't matter, right?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Nov, 2006 11:02 am
McGentrix wrote:
The attacks on the bridges and highways and airport were attacks on the infrastructure to keep Hezbollah from escapiong and to keep reinforcements from have quick access. A good strategy and hardly standard, witless blather.


You display an ignorance only slightly less than that displayed by Ican't. Hezbollah's military wing is concentrated in southeast Lebanon, near the Shebaa Farms, the military occupation of which by Israel is one of their excuses for not disarming. If you really think the PM and the IDF high command give a rat's ass about Goldwasser and Regev you are seriously naive. If the Israelis really wanted to get at Hezbollah, their first act would have been a massive invasion of southeast Lebanon from a base at the Shebaa Farms. The highway bridges and the airport play no part in Hezbollah's logistical base. The subsequent invasion (too little too late) failed in large measure because Hezbollah had had weeks do dig in and prepare, and because Hezbollah depends on resupply from Syria--the highways and the airport and the seaports mean nothing to Hezbollah militarily. It was a stupid strategy, and did nothing to facilitate the eventually and fatally delayed invasion.

Quote:
Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government. What actions have the Lebanese government taken to curtail Hezbollahs illegal activities against Israel? Isarael was right in their actions against Lebanon and Hezbollah should take notice of the reprecussions of their actions. Previous negotiations do not guarantee future negotiations and Israel is under no binding law that tells them they must negotiate with terrorists every time they kidnap Israeli soldiers or kill Israeli civilians.


Hezbollah did not kill any Israeli civilians in the raid which Israel used as an excuse for the attack. If you would bother to go back a few pages to read my responses to Ican't's fantasy land view of the Lebanon, you'll see that i've already addressed to topic of what the Lebanon can do about Hezbollah. Hezbollah has 14 seats in the 128 seats of the parliament. That is only fractionally over 10% of the seats, even though they claim to represent Twelver Shi'ites in the Lebanon, who are 40% of the population. Hezbollah obviously can't even get all of the Shi'ites they claim to represent to vote for them. The Lebanese police and military are few, ill-paid, ill-equipped and ill-trained--they are in no position to challenge Hezbollah. By contrast, Hezbollah--described by the CIA as an international terrorist organization which is the equal of al Qaeda (look for the links i provided earlier)--relies upon a heavy training regime based on American and Israeli training manuals and tactical doctrine. Hezbollah is so good that they provide training for other terrorist organizations. Like so many conservatives, you have formed your views without having bothered to inform yourself about the Lebanon, Hezbollah and the realpolitik in that situation.

Quote:
I did not ignore that Israel immediately declared lebanon responsible. In fact, I posted Olmerts press conference that stated that exactly.


Then you are willfully ignoring that the IDF response was not to target Hezbollah, but to attack the Lebanon indiscriminately.

Quote:
They did however, target Hezbollah almost exclusively.


That is a lie.

Quote:
They also warned civilians to leave the danger areas.


Right--they were going to drive off to safety over the highways the IDF were constantly bombing, and swim the rivers where the bridges had been destroyed, right? Israel sewed southern Lebanon with cluster bombs so that many of those who attempted to flee were killed or maimed. They continue to be killed and maimed by the thousands upon thousands of "bomblets" which litter the Lebanese countryside.

Quote:
Hezbollah, however, chose to use civilian areas as cover and to launch their missiles from endangering civilians and using their deaths as propaganda against Israel.


This is also false--Isreal bombed the Lebanon indiscrimately, before any rockets had been launched at them, and across wide areas, in most of which there were no Hezbollah fighters.

Quote:
Had Hezbollah not kidnapped Israeli soldiers, none of this would have happened. Let's not lose sight of that.


You seem to have lost sight of a great deal. This attack was launched shortly after Gilad Shalit was captured by Hamas on the border of the Gaza strip. This was in the summer, when the Shrub was rattling his saber at Iran. Many conservative nut cases in the United States were calling for the invasion of Iran, and some of them calling for attacks on Syria. (I recall some deluded individuals at this site who seem to think Iraq's alleged and never discovered womds are buried in the Syrian desert.) No one then imagined that the Republican Party would implode due to corruption and sex scandals and get pasted in the mid-term elections. Look at Fox's hysterical thread title--she was hungry to see attacks on Iran and Syria, and eager for a third world war against "islamo-fascists." That was a popular view point among clueless American conservatives. Olmert was apparently sufficiently deluded to believe that he could spark such a war. He was wrong, and Lebanese and Israeli civilians have paid the price for his irresponsible and criminal response to the Hezbollah raid.

Do a little web searching on Hezbollah some time, McG--educate yourself. Hezbollah, as a political party, enjoys some respect in the Lebanon because of their social programs and their hospitals, and they even run their own television network. But the Lebanese are a damned sight better informed than you are, and have never given them any real political power in the Parliament. According to the CIA fact book, more than half of the Lebanese are Muslims, yet "the Party of God" has only 14 seats out of 128 in the Parliament. The Lebanese are able to understand the distinction between the civil branch of Hezbollah and the military. However, just as most American conservatives can be bothered to distinguish between one Muslim and another, they don't seem to understand that Hezbollah has three faces--one is political, one is military, and the most insidious is their international terrorist organization, second to none. Go back and read the material i linked, even the Director of Central Intelligence doesn't believe Israel can destroy Hezbollah. This latest exercise did Hezbollah more good than harm, and made things much, much worse for Israeli and Lebanese civilians.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Nov, 2006 11:33 am
revel wrote:

Quote:
The answer to all these questions of human shields and targeting civilians are answered Out of all proportion - civilians bear the brunt of the war

...

The four Geneva Conventions of 1949 and their two Additional Protocols of 1977 are the principal instruments of international humanitarian law. Israel is a party to the 1949 Geneva Conventions but is not a party to Protocol I relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts. Lebanon is a party to the Geneva Conventions as well as Protocol I.

...

Protocol I also expressly prohibits the use of tactics such as using "human shields" to prevent an attack on military targets.

...

However, the Protocol also makes it clear that even if one side is shielding itself behind civilians, such a violation "shall not release the Parties to the conflict from their legal obligations with respect to the civilian population and civilians."

...

To me it is obvious that both Hezbollah and Israel broke International Humanitarian law in the war of 2006. Yes, Israel is allowed to defend herself, however within limits ; they went beyond every single limit. Likewise, Hezbollah is guilty of targeting Israeli citizens when it fires those rockets into Israel.

To me it is obvious from Amnesty International USA
http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/document.do?id=ENGMDE020332006
that Amnesty International has not been delegated the power to enforce any of these provisions. They are only advocates of these provisions. It is also obvious that the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court was not enforced, since nothing was done by the court to hold Hezbollah accountable for its blatant violations of Protocol I despite Hezbollah's prior commitment to honor Protocol I.

Amnesty International USA alleges Protocol I states:
Quote:
However, the Protocol also makes it clear that even if one side is shielding itself behind civilians, such a violation "shall not release the Parties to the conflict from their legal obligations with respect to the civilian population and civilians."

This provision of Protocol I, creates an intolerable handicap to the party defending itself against a party that violates this protocol.

Hezbollah violated this protocol by imbedding the rockets it aimed at Israel within the Lebonese civilian population. Transcending this protocol, to which Israel is not even a party, is Israel's unquestionable right to defend itself as best it can. No protocol can morally or legally deny that right.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Nov, 2006 11:41 am
Neither Israel nor Lebanon has ratified the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court.

Besides, the court doesn't act by itself but only after the prsosecution started investigations. Which they can't.
a) because no other state asked for,
b) because neither Israel nor Lebanon ratified the protocol.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Nov, 2006 11:44 am
Don't trouble Ican't with facts--he's not interested in them.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Nov, 2006 12:06 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Ican, do you have a link for that list?

My list was my transcription from hardcopy sources.

Here's an online source going back to the year 2000:
Quote:

http://www.aijac.org.au/resources/hezb_00-06.html
Hezbollah Terrorist Attacks Since May 2000*

*Israel's unilateral withdrawal from southern Lebanon

Compiled by Mitchell Bard

(July 24, 2006)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

24 Jul 2006 - Hezbollah fired more than 70 Katyusha rockets into Israel, several of which landed in Nahariya, Safed, and Kiryat Shmona. Medics treated at least 49 people who were lightly to moderately wounded. More than 2200 rockets have been fired at Israeli cities since July 12, killing 17 Israelis, all of them civilians. 20 Israeli soldiers were killed in other incidents.

23 Jul 2006 - Shimon Glickblich, 60, of Haifa was killed Sunday morning (11:00) while driving his car in Haifa. Habib Isa Awad, 48, of Iblin, was killed while working in the carpentry shop in Kiryat Ata. Another 12 were wounded in the morning barrage in Haifa, and more later in the day as over 90 rockets were fired at Haifa, Akko, Kiryat Shmona, and elsewhere in northern Israel.

20 Jul 2006 - Five IDF soldiers were killed and five wounded in continuing exchanges of fire in the Lebanese village of Maroun al-Ras, near Avivim, where two soldiers were killed on Wednesday. The body of the fifth soldier, St.-Sgt. Yonatan (Sergei) Vlasyuk, 21, of Kibbutz Lahav was retrieved on July 22. At 16, Yonatan immigrated alone to Israel through the Jewish Agency's "Na'aleh" program. He was adopted by Dalia Gal, a member of Kibbutz Lahav in the Negev. An IDF officer was killed and three soldiers were wounded as two Apache (Cobra) combat helicopters on their way to Lebanon to assist IDF forces operating against Hezbollah terrorists near Avivim collided and then crashed south of Kiryat Shmona.

19 Jul 2006 - St.-Sgt. Yonatan Hadasi, 21, of Kibbutz Merhavia and St.-Sgt. Yotam Gilboa, 21, of Kibbutz Maoz Haim were killed and nine soldiers were wounded in exchanges of fire between IDF and Hezbollah in south Lebanon, near Moshav Avivim. The Israeli force had crossed the border to destroy the Hezbollah rocket-launching position at the former IDF outpost of Shaked. Rabia Abed Taluzi (3) and his brother Mahmoud (7) who were playing soccer outside their house were killed and dozens were wounded in two Katyusha rocket attacks on the Israeli Arab city of Nazareth.

18 Jul 2006 - Andrei Zelinksy, 36, was killed Tuesday evening in Nahariya outside a bomb shelter. Though he managed to save his family by rushing them into the shelter, he returned home to get a blanket for his daughter and was killed. Some 130 rockets were fired at the north on Tuesday, 100 of them within one hour and a half - also landing in the Haifa area, Karmiel, Tiberias, Safed, Maalot and Rosh Pina. About 60 people injured were evacuated to hospitals in Safed and Nahariya.

17 Jul 2006 - Over 50 rockets were fired towards the eastern and upper Galilee on Monday night. A Katyusha rocket hit the external wall of the Rebecca Sieff Hospital in Safed, causing damage to infrastructure; five patients, two doctors and two other hospital employees were injured. Earlier, 11 people were wounded in Haifa when a 3-story apartment building was hit by missile. The Israel Air Force destroyed at least ten long-range Iranian-made missiles capable of hitting Tel Aviv, by targeting a Hezbollah truck carrying the missiles before they could be launched. To date, missiles have been fired up to 40 kilometers into Israel.

16 Jul 2006 - Eight killed, 50 wounded in Hezbollah rocket attack on Haifa - Rockets began falling on the Haifa area shortly after 9:00 a.m. Eight employees of Israel Railways at the Haifa train depot were killed in a direct hit by a Fajar missile made in Syria. A total of over 50 people were wounded in Haifa and the Haifa Bay area.

15 Jul 2006 - Katyusha rockets landed for the first time in Tiberias, located 35 kilometers from the Lebanese border on the Sea of Galilee, as well as in nearby communities.

14 Jul 2006 - Shortly after 8:30 p.m. =46riday night an Israeli navy ship was severely damaged by an Iran-manufactured missile fired by Hezbollah. Four IDF soldiers were killed: Staff Sgt. Tal Amgar, 21, of Ashdod; Yaniv Hershkovitz, 21, of Haifa; Shai Atias, 19, ofRishon Lezion; and Dov Steinshuss, 37, of Karmiel. Omer Pesachov, 7, of Nahariya, and his grandmother Yehudit Itzkovitch, 58, of Moshav Meron were killed by a Katyusha rocket in Meron early Friday evening. Roni, Omer's older sister, was badly wounded, and the grandfather, Naftali, was lightly hurt. The family had fled the Katyushas in Nahariya to spend a quiet weekend with their grandparents.

13 Jul 2006 - Monica Seidman (Lehrer), 40, of Nahariya was killed in her home by a Katyusha rocket Thursday morning. In the evening, Nitzan Roseban, 33, was killed in Safed by a direct rocket hit. On Thursday evening Katyushas landed in Haifa.

12 Jul 2006 - Hezbollah terrorists infiltrated into Israeli territory and attacked two IDF armored jeeps patrolling the border with Lebanon, killing three soldiers and kidnapping two. Ground forces entered Lebanon in the area of the attack. A large explosive device was detonated underneath an Israeli tank, killing all four of the tank crew. An eighth soldier was killed when IDF troops entered Lebanon to try to retrieve the bodies of the tank crew. Throughout the day, Hezbollah terror organization fired Katyusha rockets and mortar shells at Israel's northern borders' communities and IDF posts.

27 May 2006 - An IDF soldier was wounded when Katyushas were fired at an army base at Mt. Meron in the upper Galilee.

27 Dec 2005 - A branch of a Palestinian organization connected to Al-Qaida fired 6 Katyushas, damaging a house in Kiryat Shmona and a house in Metulla. In response, the IAF attacked a training base of the Popular Front, south of Beirut.

21 Nov 2005 - An attempt to kidnap an IDF soldier was foiled when paratroopers patrolling near Rajar village discerned a Hezbollah unit approaching. Private David Markovitz opened fire, killing all four. In a heavy attack of mortars and Katyusha rockets that ensued, nine soldiers and and two civilians were injured.

29 Jun 2005 - More than 20 mortars were fired from across the border. Cpl. Uzi Peretz of the Golani Brigade was killed and four soldiers wounded, including the unit's doctor. Fire was exchanged and helicopters and planes attacked five Hezbollah outposts in the Reches Ramim area.

24 Apr 2005 - Several explosive devices exploded near the Lebanese-Israeli border, in the Mount Dov area. Officials believe the devices were planted by Hezbollah, but this was not confirmed. No injuries were reported in the explosions.

7 Apr 2005 - Two Israeli-Arabs from the village of Rajar near the Israel-Lebanon border were kidnapped by Hezbollah operatives and held in captivity for four days. The men, identified as Muki Ben-Jamal and Nuef Maharj Ben-Ali, said they were interrogated by their captors who wanted information on Israel. They were later released. Israeli officials did not believe that any security information had been compromised.

9 Jan 2005 - An explosive device was detonated against an IDF patrol at Nahal Sion. One Israeli soldier was killed, and a UN officer was killed.

20 Jul 2004 - Hezbollah sniper fired at an IDF post in the western sector of the Israeli-Lebanese border. Two IDF soldiers were killed.

7 May 2004 - Fire in the Mt. Dov sector. IDF soldier Dennis Leminov was killed, and two other soldiers were severely wounded. The IDF returned fire.

19 Jan 2004 - An anti-tank missile was fired at IDF D9 while neutralizing explosive charges near Zari't. An IDF soldier, Yan Rotzenski, was killed and another soldier was severely wounded.

6 Oct 2003 - Staff Sgt. David Solomonov was killed when Hezbollah fired at an IDF force south of the =46atma Gate in the eastern sector. In addition, the Hezbollah fired missiles and rockets at an IDF post in the Reches Ramim area.

10 Aug 2003 - Haviv Dadon, 16, of Shlomi, was struck in the chest and killed by shrapnel from an anti-aircraft shell fired by Hezbollah terrorists in Lebanon. Four others were wounded.

20 Jul 2003 - Hezbollah snipers fired on an Israeli outpost near Chetula, killing two Israeli soldiers. The IDF retaliated with tank fire directed at a Hezbollah position, killing one operative manning the post. That night, there were multiple Israeli flights over Lebanon, two of which generated powerful sonic booms over Beirut.

7 May 2003 - Hezbollah attacked IDF positions in the Sheba' farms with heavy rocket, mortar, and small arms fire. One Israeli soldier was killed and five others were wounded in the attack. Lebanese authorities asserted that the Hezbollah firing had been preceded by an Israeli army foot patrol crossing the Blue Line.

5 May 2003 - A cycle of armed exchanges across the Blue Line began. Israel carried out more than 20 air sorties over the country. Subsequently, Hezbollah fired several anti-aircraft rounds with shrapnel landing inside Israel.

22 Mar 2003 - Hezbollah fired rockets and mortars at Israeli army positions in the Sheba' farms and adjacent areas. This attack followed eight incursions into Lebanese airspace by Israeli aircraft.

6 Jan 2003 - Hezbollah fired anti aircraft shells in the vicinity of Birait in the western sector of the Lebanese border. No one was hurt and no damage was caused.

29 Aug 2002 - Fire at an IDF post in the Mt. Dov sector. IDF soldier Ofer Misali was killed, and two other soldiers were lightly wounded.

12 Mar 2002 - Infiltration: In a shooting attack on the Shlomi- Metzuba route. Six Israelis civilians were killed, among them IDF officer Lt. German Rojkov.

7 Aug 2001 - Two houses belonging to senior members of the former Israeli-allied South Lebanon Army militia were blown up using explosive devices. One of the houses belonged to Robin Abboud; the other to Samir Raslan. Hezbollah is suspected.

28 Apr 2001 - A 60 year-old Israeli man was found stabbed to death in Kfar Ba'aneh, near Carmiel in Galilee. The terrorists responsible for the attack were apprehended in July. Six members of a Hezbollah-linked Palestinian terrorist cell responsible for the murder were arrested in July. The murder was the initiation rite of the organization.

14 Apr 2001 - Fire at an IDF post in the Mt. Dov sector. IDF soldier Elad Litvak was killed.

1 Apr 2001 - A 42 year-old Israeli woman was stabbed to death in Haifa. Her murder was the initiation rite of a terrorist cell, whose members were apprehended in July. Six members of a Hezbollah-linked Palestinian terrorist cell responsible for the murder, originally thought to be criminally motivated, were arrested in July. The murder was the initiation rite of one of the terrorists into the organization.

16 Feb 2001- Fire at an IDF convoy on Mt. Dov. IDF soldier Elad Shneor was killed, and three other soldiers were wounded.

26 Nov 2000 - A charge was detonated near an IDF convoy. IDF soldier Khalil Taher was killed and two other soldiers were wounded.

7 Oct 2000 - Kidnapping: Three IDF soldiers: Adi Avitan, Omer Soued and Binyamin Avraham were kidnapped by the Hezbollah from the Mt. Dov sector.


For other information about Hezbollah, I recommend:
http://www.answers.com/topic/hezbollah
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Nov, 2006 12:13 pm
Setanta wrote:
Hezbollah's military wing is concentrated in southeast Lebanon, near the Shebaa Farms, the military occupation of which by Israel is one of their excuses for not disarming. If you really think the PM and the IDF high command give a rat's ass about Goldwasser and Regev you are seriously naive. If the Israelis really wanted to get at Hezbollah, their first act would have been a massive invasion of southeast Lebanon from a base at the Shebaa Farms. The highway bridges and the airport play no part in Hezbollah's logistical base. The subsequent invasion (too little too late) failed in large measure because Hezbollah had had weeks do dig in and prepare, and because Hezbollah depends on resupply from Syria--the highways and the airport and the seaports mean nothing to Hezbollah militarily. It was a stupid strategy, and did nothing to facilitate the eventually and fatally delayed invasion.
Quote:


I doubt Israel was sitting there with an invasion force waiting for Hezbollah to cross the border and kidnap Israeli soldiers so they could counter with an immediate invasion and destruction of specific Hezbollah sites. I also have no doubt that the PM and IDF High Command cares very much about Goldwasser and Regev and want to get them back.

The highways and bridges and airports connect Lebanon to the outside. SE Lebanon isn't exactly a flat desert where trucks can just go wherever they wish. If Hezbollah had time to dig in and prepare that would mean they expected the reprisal they received. The UN was supposed to be monitoring the area making sure Hezbollah did not actually do as you suggest.

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Hezbollah did not kill any Israeli civilians in the raid which Israel used as an excuse for the attack. If you would bother to go back a few pages to read my responses to Ican't's fantasy land view of the Lebanon, you'll see that i've already addressed to topic of what the Lebanon can do about Hezbollah. Hezbollah has 14 seats in the 128 seats of the parliament. That is only fractionally over 10% of the seats, even though they claim to represent Twelver Shi'ites in the Lebanon, who are 40% of the population. Hezbollah obviously can't even get all of the Shi'ites they claim to represent to vote for them. The Lebanese police and military are few, ill-paid, ill-equipped and ill-trained--they are in no position to challenge Hezbollah. By contrast, Hezbollah--described by the CIA as an international terrorist organization which is the equal of al Qaeda (look for the links i provided earlier)--relies upon a heavy training regime based on American and Israeli training manuals and tactical doctrine. Hezbollah is so good that they provide training for other terrorist organizations. Like so many conservatives, you have formed your views without having bothered to inform yourself about the Lebanon, Hezbollah and the realpolitik in that situation.


I did not suggest that Hezbollah did kill any civilians in the raid. They did however in their subsequent missile campaign.

I am sure the US and Israel would have jumped at the chance to Help Lebanon rid their country of Hezbollah if they were asked.

It doesn't matter if Hezbollah has a single seat or a hundred seats. Fact remaiuns they are a part of the Lebanese government and that means they have a say in making policy and defending the civilian population under the governments control. Starting a war with Israel does not seem a good way to use ones power.

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Then you are willfully ignoring that the IDF response was not to target Hezbollah, but to attack the Lebanon indiscriminately.


That's simply a bullshit statement.

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Right--they were going to drive off to safety over the highways the IDF were constantly bombing, and swim the rivers where the bridges had been destroyed, right? Israel sewed southern Lebanon with cluster bombs so that many of those who attempted to flee were killed or maimed. They continue to be killed and maimed by the thousands upon thousands of "bomblets" which litter the Lebanese countryside.


Maybe they could have used some of that Hezbollah goodwill or roads they were using to get weapons and reinforcements. You said earlier that the highways were of no use to Hezbollah, so couldn't the civilians simply used the same roads Hezbollah was using?

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This is also false--Isreal bombed the Lebanon indiscrimately, before any rockets had been launched at them, and across wide areas, in most of which there were no Hezbollah fighters.


Another bullshit statement. Israel was very discriminate in what they bombed.

Quote:
You seem to have lost sight of a great deal. This attack was launched shortly after Gilad Shalit was captured by Hamas on the border of the Gaza strip. This was in the summer, when the Shrub was rattling his saber at Iran. Many conservative nut cases in the United States were calling for the invasion of Iran, and some of them calling for attacks on Syria. (I recall some deluded individuals at this site who seem to think Iraq's alleged and never discovered womds are buried in the Syrian desert.) No one then imagined that the Republican Party would implode due to corruption and sex scandals and get pasted in the mid-term elections. Look at Fox's hysterical thread title--she was hungry to see attacks on Iran and Syria, and eager for a third world war against "islamo-fascists." That was a popular view point among clueless American conservatives. Olmert was apparently sufficiently deluded to believe that he could spark such a war. He was wrong, and Lebanese and Israeli civilians have paid the price for his irresponsible and criminal response to the Hezbollah raid.

Do a little web searching on Hezbollah some time, McG--educate yourself. Hezbollah, as a political party, enjoys some respect in the Lebanon because of their social programs and their hospitals, and they even run their own television network. But the Lebanese are a damned sight better informed than you are, and have never given them any real political power in the Parliament. According to the CIA fact book, more than half of the Lebanese are Muslims, yet "the Party of God" has only 14 seats out of 128 in the Parliament. The Lebanese are able to understand the distinction between the civil branch of Hezbollah and the military. However, just as most American conservatives can be bothered to distinguish between one Muslim and another, they don't seem to understand that Hezbollah has three faces--one is political, one is military, and the most insidious is their international terrorist organization, second to none. Go back and read the material i linked, even the Director of Central Intelligence doesn't believe Israel can destroy Hezbollah. This latest exercise did Hezbollah more good than harm, and made things much, much worse for Israeli and Lebanese civilians.


Hezbollah is at fault for every single death in the short war between Israel and Lebanon. Their actions precipitated Israel's response and nothing you can say will change that.

Hamas also enjoyed some respect in Gaza. So much so the people elected them into a ruling party and the world rightly abandoned them. People make bad choices, but the fact that the Lebanese government is weak is no reason to allow a terrorist organization to roam free within the bounds of their country.
0 Replies
 
 

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