ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

Quote:

None of this would have happened had Hezbollah not fired its rockets into Israel after the Israeli military invaded Lebanon to retrieve the soldiers Hezbollah captured. And Israel would not have invaded Lebanon had Hezbollah not killed Israeli soldiers and captured Israeli soldiers.
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None of this would have happened if Israel had not invaded Lebanon.

Context, McG.

FreeDuck wrote:

Context, McG.

context? Not sure I understand in what context your point wouold be valid. Care to elaborate?

Hezbollah was the target. The target was in the midst of those who knowingly hosted Hezbollah in their midst. So many of the hosters were also killed. I bet that frequently, Israel was not sure where all of Hezbollah was located, so they targeted Hezbollah where they wrongly thought Hezbollah was located. I would expect no less from Israelies desperately trying to protect their citizens.

None of this would have happened had Hezbollah not fired its rockets into Israel...

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Hezbollah never disarmed, nor cooperated with Lebanese police forces, and refused to do so as long as Israel occupied the Shebaa Farms, and held Lebanese citizens in their prisons. ...

Obviously, Hezbollah never disarmed or cooperated with Lebanese police forces.

And, Hezbollah persisted increasing in Lebanon its members and arms (e.g., rockets) and increasing the number of locations hosting these. Expecting Hezbollah to cooperate was irresponsible. If the Lebanese government were adequately dedicated to protecting the lives of its citizens, it would have forcefully removed Hezbollah, or would have requested help from Israel or some other nations to help forcefully remove Hezbollah.

How is this quote of mine a contradiction of my quote that follows it?

ican711n wrote:

By that criterion, if ican knowingly hosted heavily armed drug dealers in his neighborhood, and failed to report them to the local and federal police, the police would be justified in blowing him away while attempting to get the drug dealers.

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ican711n wrote:

Lebanese citizens belong to the militant group Hezbollah when they support that militant group by knowingly hosting that militant group. The Lebanese citizens who take that action thereby change their status from that of innocent civilians to that of guilty civilians, who aid and abet the killing of non-killers. Such guilty civilians are killers, too.

You completely ignore that the Lebanese have been functionally unable to deal with and disarm Hezbollah, and that they have never willingly hosted Hezbollah, which was the burden of your false claim.

What is your evidence that the Lebanese "never willingly hosted Hezbollah?"

I suppose it's your opinion that the Lebanese repeatedly, openly and enthusiastically celebrated Hezbollah rocketing Israel, because Hezbollah forced them to.

Once again, you demonstrate conclusively that you know nothing of the history of the Lebanon and of Hezbollah.

Your opinion, characterized by you as if it were an accurate statement of history, does not change your opinion from being anything other than your opinion, or the opinion of others you parrot alleging themselves to be accurate historians.

Wait. Is it a given that the Israeli army is allowed to invade a neighboring country, because an organization like Hezbollah abducted Israeli soldiers?

Who is there to disallow it?

I'm just asking because that one case, you know, where the CIA abducted a Canadian citizen comes to my mind....

Just as soon as you show any evidence that the government of the Lebanon ever possessed the resources to disarm Hezbollah, you may have made your point. But you haven't provided any such evidence, and you are going to be unable to do so, because at no time since the settlement of the Lebanese civil war has the government had the military might to challenge Hezbollah. That is not an opinion, that is an historical fact.
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revel wrote:

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In legal terms the Lebanese citizens are civilians unless they belong to a militant group such as Hizbollah even if they do nothing to stop Hizbollah. Ican has no authority to change their status as civilians.That is simply a fact.

I agree that "Ican has no authority to change their status as civilians" and "that is simply a fact." But individual citizens do have the authority to change their own status by their own actions.

Lebanese citizens belong to the militant group Hezbollah when they support that militant group by knowingly hosting that militant group. The Lebanese citizens who take that action thereby change their status from that of innocent civilians to that of guilty civilians, who aid and abet the killing of non-killers. Such guilty civilians are killers, too.

Hezbollah consists of dkonks (i.e., deliberate killers of non-killers). The Lebanese citizens who are supporters of Hezbolla are sodkonks (i.e., supporters of deliberate killers of non-killers). Sodkonks invite their own deaths as long as they continue to host dkonks. They do not have just cause for complaint when some of them are killed when dkonks in their midst are deliberately killed.

None of the foregoing is true because I say it is true. None of the foregoing is false because you say it is false. All of the foregoing is true because it is an accurate description of reality.

By the way, as a practical matter, Israelis cannot successfully defend their own lives against their would be killers, if they were to prohibit themselves killing their would be killers, when their would be killers are in the midst of their hosts, who will be killed when their would be killers are killed.

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There are laws that govern how a nation is to conduct wars even in the case of human shields, Israel did not adhere to those laws. Legally those human shields are still civilians even if they do nothing to stop those using them for human shields.

Please provide a link or reference to a copy of those alleged laws, or post a copy of those alleged laws that apply to a conflict wherein the citizens of one state are being killed by a group located in another state. Absent such evidence, comon sense ought to prevail. Come to think of it, common sense ought to prevail regardless of such laws.

The government of Israel cannot successfully defend the lives of its own citizens against their would be killers, if they were to prohibit themselves killing their would be killers, when their would be killers are in the midst of the citizens of another country, who will be killed when the would be killers of Israel citizens are killed.


Furthermore, it has been documented that in a lot of cases where civilians had been bombed by Israel there were not even any evidence of there being any Hezballah around or any of their weapons.

I believe you are correct. I would be very surprised if your allegation turned out to be false!

I believe that in this conflict, it was damn near impossible to determine exactly where all the Hezbollah dkonks (i.e., deliberate killers of non-killers) were located. The responsibility of Israel's government was to kill the Hezbollah dkonks before the Hezbollah dkonks killed its citizens. No doubt in their justifiable panic to meet their responsibility as soon as possible, Israel was often dead wrong about where the dkonks were actually located, until the dkonks actually fired one of their rockets attempting to kill Israeli citizens.

Had the government of Lebanon earlier requested Israel's help in removing these Hezbollah dkonks, Israel, acting with the advise and consent of the Lebanese government would have been dead wrong far fewer times. Thereby, the lives of many Lebanese citizens would have been saved.

Alternatively, the Lebanese governent could have requested the resident UN peacekeeping force to remove the Hezbollah dkonks from Lebanon well before the Hezbollah dkonks abducted Israeli soldiers, killed Israeli soldiers and subsequently fired rockets at Israeli citizens.

Lastly the mere fact that Lebanon did not stop Hezbollah did not make every single woman and child and elderly person in Lebanon deserved to be made a target from Israel. Leaving cluster bombs behind for any child to run into is just inhumane no matter any perceived justification and is illegal in International Humanitarian Law as has already been shown here in this thread.

I agree, that "the mere fact that Lebanon did not stop Hezbollah did not make every single woman and child and elderly person in Lebanon deserved to be made a target from Israel." However, the mere fact that Lebanon did not stop Hezbollah, did make every single man, woman and child and elderly person in Lebanon, a potential victim of Israel's attempt to remove the Hezbollah dkonks from Lebanon. The blame for that clearly belongs to the Lebanese government and the citizens who elected it.

Had they asked for help to stop Hezbollah, the Lebanese government would have obtained that help, and thereby would have prevented each and every man, woman and child and elderly person in Lebanon, being a a potential victim of Israel's attempt to remove the Hezbollah dkonks from Lebanon.

Advice is a noun, not a verb.

You have provided no evidence that the nation of the Lebanon willingly "hosts" Hezbollah.
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My evidence has been presented here more than once.

My evidence is the fact that the government of Lebanon did not request help to remove Hezbollah from Lebanon.

It did not request help from Israel to remove Hezbollah from Lebanon.

It did not request help from any other nation to remove Hezbollah from Lebanon.

It did not request help from the UN Security Council to remove Hezbollah from Lebanon.

Most significant of all, it did not even request help from the, resident in Lebanon, UN peace keeping force to remove Hezbollah from Lebanon.
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Ante up, Ican't, put your money where your mouth is, instead of just constantly demonstrating your ignorance. What evidence can you provide that the Lebanese willingly "host" the military arm of Hezbollah?

Read my evidence again and again and again ... and again until you finally are able to comprehend my evidence.

Hezbollah:

04/18/1983 -- crashes van bomb into U.S. Embassy in
..................... Beirut, killing 63 including 17 Americans;
10/23/1983 -- explodes truck bomb at U.S. Marine Barracks in
...................... Beirut killing 241 Marines in peace keeping force;
03/16/1984 -- kidnaps and murders CIA station chief, William F.
...................... Buckley;
04/12/1984 -- bombs Torrejon, Spain restaurant near U.S. Air
...................... Force Base, killing 18 U.S. servicemen;
09/20/1984 -- car-bombs U.S. Embassy annex in east Beirut
...................... killing 2 Americans, injuring ambassador;
12/04/1984 -- hijacks Kuwait Airlines plane and murder 2 American
...................... passengers;
06/14/1985 -- hijacks TWA flight 847, Athens to Rome with 153
...................... passengers, mostly Americans, beats passenger
...................... Robert Stethem U.S. Navy diver to death and
...................... dumps onto Beirut Airport ramp;
02/17/1988 -- kidnaps and subsequently murders Col. William
...................... Higgins, U.S. Marine in Lebanon serving in
...................... UN truce monitoring group;
03/17/1992 -- bombs, with help of Iranian intelligence agents,
...................... Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires, wounding about
...................... 300, killing 28;
[Oslo accords in 1993, established Palestinian rule within Israel in return for not attacking Israelies]
07/18/1994 -- bombs the Jewish Community Center in in Buenos
...................... Aires, wounding about 200, killing 86;
11/28/1995 -- bombards northern Israel towns with Katyusha
...................... rockets;
03/30/1996 -- bombards northern Israel towns with Katyusha
...................... rockets;
06/25/1996 -- bombs Kobar Towers apartment complex in Saudi
...................... Arabia, killing 19 U.S. servicemen;
08/19/1997 -- bombards northern Israel towns with Katyusha
...................... rockets;
12/28/1998 -- bombards northern Israel towns with Katyusha
...................... rockets;
05/17/1999 -- bombards northern Israel towns with Katyusha
...................... rockets;
06/24/1999 -- bombards northern Israel towns with Katyusha
...................... rockets;
[05/24/2000, Israel completes pull out from Lebanon.]
10/07/2000 -- kidnaps 3 Israeli soldiers patrolling Israel's border
...................... with Lebanon, and their bodies are subsequently
...................... exchanged for 400 Arab prisoners;
[12/23/2000, Arafat rejects Israel's offer to pull out of Gaza and parts of the West Bank in return for recognizing Israel's right to exist.]
04/09/2002 -- bombards northern Israel towns with Katyusha
...................... rockets;
[05/02/2003, Israel accepts "Road Map" for peace.]
08/10/2003 -- bombards northern Israel towns with rockets,
...................... killing 16-year old Israeli boy;
[08/15/2005, Israel pulls out of Gaza and parts of the West Bank.]
07/12/2006 -- kidnaps 2 Israeli soliers, kills 8 Israeli soldiers
..................... on Israeli soil, and bombards northern Israel
..................... towns with rockets.

Finally, Israel was enraged enough to go on a real offensive to defend it self.

What the hell took Israel so long?

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This article from the Untied Jewish Appeal Federation's Toronto website[/b][/url] points out what i have already posted, but which Ican't is pleased to describe as my "opinion":

With 20,000 troops and at least 10,000 rockets trained on northern Israel, Hezbollah remains a potent force in Lebanon -- the only remaining private militia in fact, after others were disarmed.
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So, you admit that you have no evidence, just your woefully uninformed opinion.

Of course, most of us already knew that. I just wanted to make sure it was clear to any casual reader who drops by.