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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Sep, 2006 12:25 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
And it does not escape those willing to see it that Amnesty International had no intention of criticizing Hizbollah at all until they were accused of being to biased against Israel. Smile


Actually they had already accused Hizbollah of committing war crimes but they were going to work on that report separately which they now have.

http://ejpress.org/article/in_depth/mideast_crisis/10482
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Sep, 2006 12:31 pm
From AI's report:

Quote:
International humanitarian law and war crimes
International humanitarian law (the laws of war) governs the conduct of war. It seeks to protect civilians, others not participating in the hostilities, and civilian objects (all objects that are not military objectives).
Hizbullah is bound by a number of rules and principles of international humanitarian law. Some of these obligations, including the requirement to treat humanely at all times people taking no active part in hostilities, are contained in common Article 3 of the four 1949 Geneva Conventions. Other principles and rules specific to the conduct of hostilities have been accepted by the international community -- including Israel, Lebanon and most other states -- as binding on all parties to international and non-international armed conflicts. These rules are encapsulated in the Additional Protocol I of 1977 to the Geneva Conventions.


Are Hizbullah, not being a sovereign nation or any kind of state, really 'bound' to rules of international laws of war or even humanitarian laws?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Sep, 2006 12:36 pm
old europe wrote:

It's interesting to see how you accused Amnesty of being biased, just because they condemned war crimes committed by "your" side, too.


It is interesting that this poster accuses others of being idiotic and not able to research before posting an opinion as well.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Sep, 2006 12:41 pm
SierraSong wrote:
In the past, this organization and others have been disproportionately interested in isolated incidents of U.S. military excess in Iraq and the legality and morality of a well-appointed detention camp for non-state terrorists at Guantanamo Bay, while paying only lip service to the nature of the foe the United States faces.


Isn't it interesting that whenever Amnesty publishes a report, the reactions from those critizised are so similar? When AI critizised the methods employed by the USA in handling the detainees in Guantanamo, US officials quickly pointed out how much better the US was treating their prisoners vis-a-vis the treatment prisoners received at the hands of terrorists.

Now that Amnesty says that killing 43 Israeli civilians and forcing hundreds of thousands to flee constitutes a war crime, Hezbollah officials quickly point out how Israeli bombs killed more than 1,200 civilians in Lebanon and prompted more than a million people to flee.

And each side, always, claims that Amnesty was "disproportionately interested in isolated incidents" committed by them, while "paying only lip service to the nature of the foe". Seems the people at Amnesty must be doing something right.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Sep, 2006 12:43 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
The first article McG posted was dated 8/22/06 and I saw many similar to it during that period. The second article McG posted was dated today, and I believe it is the first MSM reporting of any A.I. criticism of Hizbollah.


Dated 22.08.2006 at 00:52 GMTthe BBC reported:

Quote:
Amnesty International has accused Israel of committing war crimes by deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure in Lebanon.
The human rights group says attacks on homes, bridges, roads and water and fuel plants were an "integral part" of Israel's strategy in the recent war.

The group also calls for a UN investigation into whether both Israel and Hezbollah broke humanitarian law.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Sep, 2006 12:43 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
old europe wrote:

It's interesting to see how you accused Amnesty of being biased, just because they condemned war crimes committed by "your" side, too.


It is interesting that this poster accuses others of being idiotic and not able to research before posting an opinion as well.


Is the idiom "It's interesting" a German one, by the way?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Sep, 2006 12:45 pm
Proves that we are extreme left wing wackos.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Sep, 2006 12:46 pm
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
And it does not escape those willing to see it that Amnesty International had no intention of criticizing Hizbollah at all until they were accused of being to biased against Israel. Smile


Just your opinion, Foxy, or anything to back that up?

AI has a pretty good track record of reporting on violations of human rights.


The first article McG posted was dated 8/22/06 and I saw many similar to it during that period. The second article McG posted was dated today, and I believe it is the first MSM reporting of any A.I. criticism of Hizbollah.


Okay. Just your opinion, then, and nothing but your prejudices to back it up.

Here's an article Amnesty International published on 26 July 2006, addressing both sides:

ISRAEL/LEBANON
ISRAEL AND HIZBULLAH MUST SPARE CIVILIANS
Obligations under international humanitarian law of the parties to the conflict in Israel and Lebanon


It's interesting to see how you accused Amnesty of being biased, just because they condemned war crimes committed by "your" side, too.


I must be missing something as I don't find any clear list of sins committed by either side. It rather appears to be a list of A.I.'s interpretation of the rules for conducting war.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Sep, 2006 12:48 pm
I meant to edit my previous post to say "mostly' a list and also speculation on a lot of "if's".
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Sep, 2006 12:52 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
I must be missing something as I don't find any clear list of sins committed by either side. It rather appears to be a list of A.I.'s interpretation of the rules for conducting war.


Translation:

"Bloody hell, they have critizised Hezbollah, too. Let me find a new way of putting them down."


From the article that Foxy hasn't even bothered to read:

Quote:
Hizbullah's use of Katyusha rockets and longer-range missiles against Israeli cities and towns violates the prohibition on indiscriminate attack, even when they appear to have been directed at legitimate targets, such as military bases. This is due to the inherent inaccuracy of these weapons at long distances.



Duh.

By the way, I prefer AI's interpretation of the rules of conducting a war over the one by Rumsfeld, Bush et aliter any time.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Sep, 2006 12:55 pm
"Even when they appear to be directed at legitimate targets". And this after the Hizbollah leadership admitted he was targeting civilians?

Only somebody completely anti-Israel could not read that as blunting direct criticism of Hizbollah's actions. Their motive was pure; it was only their process that was flawed and only that because the rockets were so inaccurate. Bull. Show me any paragraph that exhonerates Israel's motives.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Sep, 2006 12:58 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
"Even when they appear to be directed at legitimate targets". And this after the Hizbollah leadership admitted he was targeting civilians?

Only somebody completely anti-Israel could not read that as blunting direct criticism of Hizbollah's actions. Their motive was pure; it was only their process that was flawed. Bull.


From the AI article:

Quote:
Hizbullah leader Sheikh Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah suggested that rocket attacks against civilian population centres were justified by illegal Israeli actions: "When the Zionists behave like there are no rules and no red lines and no limits to the confrontation, it is our right to behave in the same way."

According to the Rome Statute, intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population as such or against individual civilians not taking a direct part in hostilities is a war crime. (Article 8 (2) (b) (i)) The states negotiating the Rome Statute did so on the basis that the list of war crimes in the statute reflected customary international law.



Why do I have to help you with everything here, Foxy? Do you absolutely refuse to read the article yourself? Is Amnesty really that evil?
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Sep, 2006 12:59 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
"Even when they appear to be directed at legitimate targets". And this after the Hizbollah leadership admitted he was targeting civilians?

Only somebody completely anti-Israel could not read that as blunting direct criticism of Hizbollah's actions. Their motive was pure; it was only their process that was flawed and only that because the rockets were so inaccurate. Bull. Show me any paragraph that exhonerates Israel's motives.


I agree with you that AI has been biased in their language. I debated a Lebanon AI rally organizer on this very thing on the Lebanese forums a few weeks back.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Sep, 2006 01:12 pm
Nice spin. Let me repost that part:

Amnesty International wrote:
Hizbullah's use of Katyusha rockets and longer-range missiles against Israeli cities and towns violates the prohibition on indiscriminate attack, even when they appear to have been directed at legitimate targets, such as military bases. This is due to the inherent inaccuracy of these weapons at long distances.


Uhm. Again. Violates the prohibition on indiscriminate attack. Even when directed at legitimate targets.

Now, Hezbollah has been targeting military bases, as we know. Amnesty says these attacks still constitute a war crime.

By quoting out of context, this is being made into "Amnesty is blunting direct criticism of Hizbollah's actions". Nice try.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Sep, 2006 01:13 pm
Quote:
Translation:

"Bloody hell, they have critizised Hezbollah, too. Let me find a new way of putting them down."
Smile
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Sep, 2006 01:16 pm
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
"Even when they appear to be directed at legitimate targets". And this after the Hizbollah leadership admitted he was targeting civilians?

Only somebody completely anti-Israel could not read that as blunting direct criticism of Hizbollah's actions. Their motive was pure; it was only their process that was flawed. Bull.


From the AI article:

Quote:
Hizbullah leader Sheikh Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah suggested that rocket attacks against civilian population centres were justified by illegal Israeli actions: "When the Zionists behave like there are no rules and no red lines and no limits to the confrontation, it is our right to behave in the same way."

According to the Rome Statute, intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population as such or against individual civilians not taking a direct part in hostilities is a war crime. (Article 8 (2) (b) (i)) The states negotiating the Rome Statute did so on the basis that the list of war crimes in the statute reflected customary international law.



Why do I have to help you with everything here, Foxy? Do you absolutely refuse to read the article yourself? Is Amnesty really that evil?


You just don't see the disconnect do you? You think separate paragraphs disconnected from a specific action are the same thing as connecting those two things? Well they aren't. Yes they paraphrased Nazarallah, but nowhere does it say that Hizbollah intentionally targeted civilians. The implications was that they were targeting legitimate targets but it was illegal because the rockets were so inaccurate that they endangered civilian populations.

That's the hypocrisy that I see. Again, show me anywhere they come that close to justifying Israel's motives.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Sep, 2006 01:29 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
You just don't see the disconnect do you? You think separate paragraphs disconnected from a specific action are the same thing as connecting those two things? Well they aren't. Yes they paraphrased Nazarallah, but nowhere does it say that Hizbollah intentionally targeted civilians. The implications was that they were targeting legitimate targets but it was illegal because the rockets were so inaccurate that they endangered civilian populations.

That's the hypocrisy that I see. Again, show me anywhere they come that close to justifying Israel's motives.


Yeah. Sorry. My fault. You're right, Amnesty should NOT go by the evidence available and look at the targets and the damage caused and draw conclusions, but rather second-guess the intentions of Hezbollah.

The same goes for Israel, of course. Instead of looking at the evidence and the damage caused in Lebanon, Amnesty should rather consider the Israel's intentions by extrapolating the statements of Israeli officials (like, when General Dan Halutz said that Israel "will turn Lebanon's clock back 20 years") and publish an analysis accordingly.
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old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Sep, 2006 01:32 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Again, show me anywhere they come that close to justifying Israel's motives.


And, by the way, Amnesty International has no business in "justifying Israel's motives". I would very much question their impartiality when they, all of a sudden, started to justify the rationale of either party, in whatever conflict, for committing war crimes.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Sep, 2006 01:49 pm
Israel knew it lacked completely accurate means to destroy Hezbollah rocket firing sites without killing non-Hezbollahns in the neighborhood. So instead of trying to destroy those Hezbollah rocket firing sites in the midst of non-combatants who were allowing sanctuary to Hezbollah, Israel should have complained to Amnesty International, and then waited for AI's reports. After receiving those reports, Israel should have then appealed to the UN to intervene and stop the rocket firing that was killing their people. While waiting for that, Israel should have moved the remains of its entire non-combatant population into the Negev.

Yeah, right!
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Sep, 2006 02:01 pm
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Again, show me anywhere they come that close to justifying Israel's motives.


And, by the way, Amnesty International has no business in "justifying Israel's motives". I would very much question their impartiality when they, all of a sudden, started to justify the rationale of either party, in whatever conflict, for committing war crimes.


I have no problem whatsoever with A.I. monitoring and reporting war crimes or any other human injustices, and I am one of the first to commend them when they get it right. But the modern U.N. prejudice against Israel is stunning and A.I.'s prejudice against Israel is quite obvious.

If it is politically incorrect to point this out, tough toenails. I have as much right to my opinion as you do. I am always prepared to be wrong on just about anything, but at least I've shown how my opinion at least has some basis in fact. So far your 'evidence' for your opinion is far less persuasive.
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