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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Sep, 2006 07:37 pm
Kind of reminds you of Israel today except instead of Christian its Jewish.

http://z.about.com/d/atheism/1/7/f/z/2/ConservativeSchool-e.jpg
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Sep, 2006 07:41 pm
The type of democracy Israel practices today.

http://z.about.com/d/atheism/1/7/L/z/2/WhiteAmerica-e.jpg
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Sep, 2006 08:18 am
Forgive me for saying so, xingu, but you are muddying up the waters a bit with these weird images.

What I find hard to fathom is that those who keep defending Israel's actions in regards to international law and the CG, ignore Israel's flagrant breaking of those laws by saying that Israel does nothing unless in reaction to someone else. The forth Geneva Convention specially says that even if acting in retaliation you can't be bombing civilian areas and things of that nature such as bulldozing civilian homes in response to an act by a Palestinian suicide bomber.
(or words to that effect)

Amnesty International
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Sep, 2006 08:28 am
I'll ask you the same question I asked Steve, Revel. Going back to my previous two posts, the first listing several dozen attacks on Israel, if it is your child being targeted, what would you consider reasonable to protect your child and all the other children in your neighborhood?

Here is another recent Amnesty International admonition:


AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL

Public Statement

AI Index: MDE 15/033/2005 (Public)
News Service No: 134
23 May 2005

Israel/Occupied Territories: Palestinian armed groups must not use children
Amnesty International reiterates its calls to Palestinian armed groups to put an immediate end to the use of children in armed activities.

"Palestinian armed groups must not use children under any circumstances to carry out armed attacks or to transport weapons or other material", Amnesty International said.

On 22 May 2005 a 15-year-old Palestinian child carrying explosive was arrested by the Israeli army at the Huwara military checkpoint, at the entrance to the West Bank town of Nablus.

This is the third such incident this year in which Palestinian children have been arrested at Israeli military checkpoints while carrying explosives or munitions. On 3 February a 17-year-old was arrested at the same checkpoint while carrying explosives and bullets, and on 27 April two 15-year-olds also carrying explosives and bullets were arrested at a military checkpoint at the entrance of the West Bank town of Jenin.

Several Palestinian armed groups, including the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, an offshoot of the ruling Fatah party, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Palestinian Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), have used children to transport explosives and munitions, thereby endangering their lives. In some cases these groups have sent children to carry out suicide attacks.
MORE HERE

__________________________________
Israel does not target Palestinian children or Palestinian civilians. Israel has not targeted Lebanese children or Lebanese civilians. But it has to protect itself in whatever means are available to it. When the Palestinians and also the Lebanese Hezbollah use children and other civilians as both shields and weapons, how do you suggest that Israel defend itself against that?

Do you honestly think that Israel must just take it and not defend herself or retaliate at all if civilians are affected in any way by such self defebse or retaliation?
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Sep, 2006 08:37 am
I would wonder why my child was being targeted.

If I was a swindler, and a tyrant, I would have to take very good care, bacause obviously my family and "my property" would be a target.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Sep, 2006 08:42 am
McTag wrote:
I would wonder why my child was being targeted.

If I was a swindler, and a tyrant, I would have to take very good care, bacause obviously my family and "my property" would be a target.


Well, I rather prefer my protector to be armed and dangerous rather than defend me with wondering.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Sep, 2006 08:46 am
Foxfyre wrote:
McTag wrote:
I would wonder why my child was being targeted.

If I was a swindler, and a tyrant, I would have to take very good care, bacause obviously my family and "my property" would be a target.


Well, I rather prefer my protector to be armed and dangerous rather than defend me with wondering.



Let's assume you rely, at least partly, on the police for protection. Do you want the police to follow the law when protecting you from criminals, or do you think police officers should merely act on what they perceive to be the best course of action to protect you, laws be damned?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Sep, 2006 09:14 am
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
McTag wrote:
I would wonder why my child was being targeted.

If I was a swindler, and a tyrant, I would have to take very good care, bacause obviously my family and "my property" would be a target.


Well, I rather prefer my protector to be armed and dangerous rather than defend me with wondering.



Let's assume you rely, at least partly, on the police for protection. Do you want the police to follow the law when protecting you from criminals, or do you think police officers should merely act on what they perceive to be the best course of action to protect you, laws be damned?


If I or my children are subject to being kidnapped, tortured, raped, beheaded, blown to bits, maimed, etc. etc. etc., I really don't care how my protector chooses to protect me. Do you?

And apparently interpretation of law is quite selective, especially on this thread. The Palestinians, for instance, are described as poor, ignorant, uneducated victims who have no choice but to commit mayhem among Israeli women and children. But let the Israelis do what they believe they must do to stop the attacks, and the Israelis are condemned as the law breakers.

As soon as the rest of the civilized world steps up to help Israel defend herself, something I've not seen a lot of, then I will defend Israel's right to defend itself however is necessary to do that.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Sep, 2006 09:18 am
Foxfyre wrote:


"Palestinian armed groups must not use children under any circumstances to carry out armed attacks or to transport weapons or other material", Amnesty International said.

On 22 May 2005 a 15-year-old Palestinian child carrying explosive was arrested by the Israeli army at the Huwara military checkpoint, at the entrance to the West Bank town of Nablus.

This is the third such incident this year....



ALL "palestinian" children are now being raised to wish to become shihadi (suicide bombers/"martyrs).

http://www.pmw.org.il/


Nothing which Amnesty International could possibly have to say is relevant in the case of "palestinians". They're basically brain-washed savages with a death wish and a wish to inflict massive harm on others. They need to either be exterminated, or put somewhere sufficiently isolated and remote, that they will no longer be able to harm anybody other than themselves and/or any plant and/or animal life unfortunate enough to live nearby, and they need to be kept there forever or at least until Jesus returns to the world.

Anything else is a non-solution and is dangerous to innocent people.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Sep, 2006 09:21 am
McTag wrote:

If I was a swindler, and a tyrant.....



If you vote for de-mokkker-rats, you ARE a swindler and a tyrant, or at least a swindler/tyrant enabler.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Sep, 2006 09:34 am
Foxfyre wrote:
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
McTag wrote:
I would wonder why my child was being targeted.

If I was a swindler, and a tyrant, I would have to take very good care, bacause obviously my family and "my property" would be a target.


Well, I rather prefer my protector to be armed and dangerous rather than defend me with wondering.



Let's assume you rely, at least partly, on the police for protection. Do you want the police to follow the law when protecting you from criminals, or do you think police officers should merely act on what they perceive to be the best course of action to protect you, laws be damned?


If I or my children are subject to being kidnapped, tortured, raped, beheaded, blown to bits, maimed, etc. etc. etc., I really don't care how my protector chooses to protect me. Do you?


Yes I do. If somebody kidnapped, tortured, raped, beheaded or blew my kids to bits, I would still not condone it if the police, in response, e.g. rounded up all the friends, family members and acquaintances of the perpetrator and killed them as a "retaliatory measure".

Foxfyre wrote:
And apparently interpretation of law is quite selective, especially on this thread. The Palestinians, for instance, are described as poor, ignorant, uneducated victims who have no choice but to commit mayhem among Israeli women and children. But let the Israelis do what they believe they must do to stop the attacks, and the Israelis are condemned as the law breakers.


Not by me. Nice strawman, though. Doesn't answer the question, either.

Criminals, by definition, do not abide by the law either. Should the police therefore be exempt from following the law when prosecuting a criminal? How would you feel about that?
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Sep, 2006 10:09 am
Foxfyre wrote:
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
McTag wrote:
I would wonder why my child was being targeted.

If I was a swindler, and a tyrant, I would have to take very good care, bacause obviously my family and "my property" would be a target.


Well, I rather prefer my protector to be armed and dangerous rather than defend me with wondering.



Let's assume you rely, at least partly, on the police for protection. Do you want the police to follow the law when protecting you from criminals, or do you think police officers should merely act on what they perceive to be the best course of action to protect you, laws be damned?


If I or my children are subject to being kidnapped, tortured, raped, beheaded, blown to bits, maimed, etc. etc. etc., I really don't care how my protector chooses to protect me. Do you?

And apparently interpretation of law is quite selective, especially on this thread. The Palestinians, for instance, are described as poor, ignorant, uneducated victims who have no choice but to commit mayhem among Israeli women and children. But let the Israelis do what they believe they must do to stop the attacks, and the Israelis are condemned as the law breakers.

As soon as the rest of the civilized world steps up to help Israel defend herself, something I've not seen a lot of, then I will defend Israel's right to defend itself however is necessary to do that.


I have conceded that Palestinians who use violence against civilians as a means of achieving political ends are guilty of breaking the CG. (Though as a non state I am not it strictly applies, nevertheless, it is wrong.) I have just said that I understand why they resort to it given all these many years of suffering under the occupation of Israel. However, Israel is just as wrong in the ways Israel breaks international laws which has already been stated. My point is that Israel has no moral high ground when talking about being the victim of suicide bombs because it ignores international laws and the GC so their excuses of acting in retaliation are bogus excuses because the GC takes into account past actions and discounts it as an excuse for disregarding killing civilians and the destruction of the civilian infrastructure.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Sep, 2006 10:58 am
Britannica wrote:

1920 AD: 5 Jews killed 200 wounded in anti-zionist riots in Palestine.
1921 AD: 46 Jews killed 146 wounded in anti-zionist riots in Palestine.

1929 AD: 133 Jews killed 339 wounded
................116 Arabs killed 232 wounded.
1936 thru 39 AD: 329 Jews killed 857 wounded
.........................3,112 Arabs killed 1,775 wounded
............................135 Brits killed 386 wounded.
............................110 Arabs hanged 5,679 jailed.
1947 AD: UN resolution partitions Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab State.
1948 AD: State of Israel declares independence
................Civil war breaks out between Jews and Arabs.
................State of Israel conquers part of Arab Palestine.


"What goes around comes around."

IT = Islamo Totalitarians (e.g., Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, Taliban, Baathists, et al) are waging war against non-combatants. We are waging war against IT to end IT's war against non-combatants.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Sep, 2006 01:00 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
So accounts from the 1930's giving one side and not the other is your proof that the Israelis bomb school busses and market places as a matter of policy?


The account I provided is from a writer who is sympathetic to the Zionist cause. The account I provided is proof that Zionist extremists perpetrated terrorism against Arab markets and buses.

Quote:
Would not the violence the Arabs were inflicting on Jews during that same period also count for something?


Of course the violence the Arabs were inflicting on Jews during that same period also counts for something. It was the start of the escalation of mistreatment and violence between the Arab and Zionist extremists in Palestine.

At the very beginning of the Zionist incursion into Palestine, there were few Zionists who even bothered to take into account the potential for trouble that the Zionist push for a homeland in Palestine would engender.

One Zionist who was concerned about the situation was Asher Ginsberg who wrote under the pen name, Ahad Ha'Am. Among other things, Ginsberg played a role in acquiring the Balfour Declaration from the British to the British Zionist Federation and the Zionist Organization. In a pamphlet published in 1891 titled "Truth from Eretz Yisrael," he wrote about Jewish treatment of the Arabs in Palestine:

"[The Jewish settlers] treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, trespass unjustly, beat them shamelessly for no sufficient reason, and even take pride in doing so. The Jews were slaves in the land of their Exile, and suddenly they found themselves with unlimited freedom, wild freedom that ONLY exists in a land like Turkey. This sudden change has produced in their hearts an inclination towards repressive tyranny, as always happens when slave rules." 'Ahad Ha'Am warned: "We are used to thinking of the Arabs as primitive men of the desert, as a donkey-like nation that neither sees nor understands what is going around it. But this is a GREAT ERROR. The Arab, like all sons of Sham, has sharp and crafty mind (here he demonstrates his own stereotyping mentality) . . . Should time come when life of our people in Palestine imposes to a smaller or greater extent on the natives, they WILL NOT easily step aside."

Palestine Remembered

Quote:
Now show me the accounts of Israeli terrorist attacks on the Arabs. I can show you a very long list of Arab terrorist attacks on the Israelis.


What would be the point of this tit-for-tat if you yourself have stated that you do not justify terrorist attacks on civilians by anybody?

Quote:
And it is worth noting that very few of those now residing in Israel or the surrounding Arab states have any memory of the 1930's.


I beg to differ with your contention that very few of those now residing in Israel or the surrounding Arab states have any memory of the 1930's. You seem think that these people have the attention spans of Americans. You have nothing to back up this assertion save your own belief. Anyway, why would it be worth noting assuming your contention is correct?

That Zionist extremists perpetrated terrorism against Arab civilians is a fact that is not refutable by anyone's memory.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Sep, 2006 02:23 pm
Lets make this simple.

Has Israel done some bad things?
YES,they have.

So lets make this simple.

Whatever the palestinian terrorists do to Israel,Israel is free to do the exact same thing to them.

If the terrorists blow up a bus and kill 30 Israeli's,then Israel is allowed to blow up and kill 30 palestinians.

That way,Israel is being perfectly fair and reacting the exact same way they were attacked.

Nobody can complain about that.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Sep, 2006 03:08 pm
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
old europe wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
McTag wrote:
I would wonder why my child was being targeted.

If I was a swindler, and a tyrant, I would have to take very good care, bacause obviously my family and "my property" would be a target.


Well, I rather prefer my protector to be armed and dangerous rather than defend me with wondering.



Let's assume you rely, at least partly, on the police for protection. Do you want the police to follow the law when protecting you from criminals, or do you think police officers should merely act on what they perceive to be the best course of action to protect you, laws be damned?


If I or my children are subject to being kidnapped, tortured, raped, beheaded, blown to bits, maimed, etc. etc. etc., I really don't care how my protector chooses to protect me. Do you?



Quote:
Yes I do. If somebody kidnapped, tortured, raped, beheaded or blew my kids to bits, I would still not condone it if the police, in response, e.g. rounded up all the friends, family members and acquaintances of the perpetrator and killed them as a "retaliatory measure".


I didn't say retaliate. I said protect. There is a difference. (Speaking of straw men)

Quote:
Foxfyre wrote:
And apparently interpretation of law is quite selective, especially on this thread. The Palestinians, for instance, are described as poor, ignorant, uneducated victims who have no choice but to commit mayhem among Israeli women and children. But let the Israelis do what they believe they must do to stop the attacks, and the Israelis are condemned as the law breakers.


Not by me. Nice strawman, though. Doesn't answer the question, either


I didn't say by you. But you can't say it hasn't been said by several from the 'the Palestinian policies are understandable'' or 'Israel deserves whatever they get' or "Israel has no right to exist at all' crowd. Thus it is no straw man to say it in this context.

Quote:
Criminals, by definition, do not abide by the law either. Should the police therefore be exempt from following the law when prosecuting a criminal? How would you feel about that?


Speaking of straw men, how does police prosecuting criminals relate to terrorists fire bombing busloads of mostly kids? You honestly think the two things are comparable?

Now, however, if those criminals are methodically shooting into crowds of civilians or firebombing markets or trying to kill me or my kids and/or other loved ones, then yes, again, I really don't care what methods the police have to use to stop that.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Sep, 2006 04:25 pm
Tuesday, May 30, 2006
Quote:
Here's why they call it the 'Jewish state'

By Jonathan Cook
Commentary by
In recently approving an effective ban on marriages between Israelis and Palestinians, Israel's Supreme Court has shut tighter the gates of the Jewish fortress the state of Israel is rapidly becoming. The judges' decision, in the words of the country's normally restrained Haaretz daily, was "shameful."

By a wafer-thin majority, the highest court in the land ruled that an amendment passed in 2003 to the Nationality Law barring Palestinians from living with an Israeli spouse inside Israel - what is termed "family unification" - did not violate rights enshrined in the country's Basic Laws.

And even if it did, the court added, the harm caused to the separated families was outweighed by the benefits of improved "security." Israel, concluded the judges, was justified in closing the door to residency for all Palestinians in order to block the entry of those few who might use marriage as a way to launch terrorist attacks.

Applications for family unification invariably come from Palestinians in the Occupied Territories who marry other Palestinians, often friends or relatives, with Israeli citizenship. One in five of Israel's population is Palestinian by descent, those who managed to remain inside the Jewish state during the war of 1948 that established Israel.

As there is no principle of equality in Israeli law, human rights groups who challenged the government's amendment were forced to argue instead that it violated the dignity of the families. Mixed Israeli and Palestinian couples are not only unable to live together inside Israel but they are also denied a married life in the Occupied Territories, from which Israeli citizens are banned under military regulations.

Most of the judges, however, seemed incapable of grasping this simple point. In an earlier hearing, Justice Michael Cheshin suggested that mixed couples wanting to build a family "should live in Jenin," a besieged Palestinian city in the West Bank. Cheshin again demonstrated other-worldly logic when he justified the majority view: "Beyond this [measure] stands the state's right not to allow residents of an enemy country to enter its territory during time of war."

The problem is that the Palestinians are not another "country," enemy or otherwise; they are a people who have been living under Israeli military occupation for nearly four decades. As the occupying power, Israel is responsible for their welfare, though it has happily passed on that burden to international players with deeper pockets.

And the suggestion that the Palestinians, who have no army, are waging a war against Israel, one of the world's strongest military powers, expands the idea of war into the realms of doublespeak. Palestinians are resisting Israel's occupation - some violently, others non-violently - as they have a right to do under international law.

Few observers in Israel, however, believe that their government passed the law in 2003 on security grounds. Of the 6,000 Palestinians given residency rights in Israel during the Oslo period, only 25 have been questioned on security-related matters, according to figures the government reluctantly published during the case. How many of this number were actually involved in attacks has still not been clarified.

The real reason for the law is to be found elsewhere. It springs from the same impulse that prompted Israel to "disengage" from the 1.3 million Palestinians of Gaza last year and is now spurring the government on to "consolidate" its West Bank settlement blocs behind a wall designed to annex Palestinian land, but not the Palestinians themselves. The ban on marriages and the drawing of final borders share a single guiding vision: one of Israel as a Jewish state with a "massive Jewish majority," as former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon phrased it before the Gaza withdrawal.

Until it was amended, the family unification provision in the Nationality Law offered Palestinians in the Occupied Territories the sole route to Israeli citizenship. But if Israel is building its walls to establish an expanded Jewish state, an ethnic fortress, it is hardly going to leave the back door ajar to let Palestinians achieve what Israelis regard as a right of return, through marriage, to Israel.

If the judges were too embarrassed to admit that demographic concerns prompted the law, few others in Israel have been as reluctant. A Jerusalem Post editorial this week admitted the security arguments for the law were "weak," observing instead: "Israel is openly threatened with annihilation - not just physically, by a potential Iranian nuclear capability, but demographically, by Palestinian claims of a 'right of return.'"

Yoel Hasson of the ruling Kadima party hailed the court's decision as "a victory for those who believe in Israel as a Jewish state," while the immigration absorption minister, Zeev Boim, added: "We have to maintain the state's democratic nature, but also its Jewish nature. The extent of entry of [Palestinian spouses] into Israel's territories is intolerable."

The government's ban on family unification between Palestinians and Israelis is currently a temporary measure (of three years standing), but that is likely to change now that the court has given the law its blessing. Justice Minister Haim Ramon has vowed to establish a new Basic Law that would permanently block entry to Palestinians as well, possibly, as other non-Jews.

This is in line with the recommendations of the government-appointed Rubinstein Committee, under the chairmanship of Israel's foremost constitutional law expert, Amnon Rubinstein, which has been preparing an immigration policy for non-Jews. In its report, issued in February, the committee proposed draconian limitations on non-Jews' rights to Israeli citizenship through marriage. (All Jews, meanwhile, will continue to qualify for citizenship based on another piece of legislation, the Law of Return.)

According to Rubinstein's recommendations, Palestinians and inhabitants of "hostile" (read Arab) states who marry Israelis (read Israel's Palestinian citizens) will be banned from rights to either citizenship or residency in Israel. Other non-Jewish spouses (read Europeans and Americans) will face age and income requirements and be expected to affirm a loyalty oath - not to Israel, but to Israel as a Jewish and democratic state. In keeping with current policy, non-Jews are unlikely to receive citizenship but may be eligible for residency rights.

As one seasoned Israeli observer, Shahar Ilan, commented in Haaretz: "It is doubtful that there are many issues that elicit such broad consensus in the [Israeli] political system as that of closing the gates to family unification."

Such changes will make Israel unlike any state we have seen in modern times. In 1980, at the height of apartheid in South Africa, the courts there refused to approve legislation much like Israel's ban on family unification, arguing that it contravened the right to a family life. In Israel, on the other hand, no one - not even the courts - is prepared to safeguard the most basic rights of the land's native people.

Jonathan Cook is a writer and journalist based in Nazareth. His book, "Blood and Religion: The Unmasking of the Jewish and Democratic State," is published by Pluto Press. His Web site is www.jkcook.net. He wrote this commentary for THE DAILY STAR.
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=5&article_id=24811#
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Sep, 2006 05:05 pm
Segregating non-combatants is a lesser evil than killing non-combatants.

Discriminating against non-combatants is a lesser evil than killing non-combatants.

Even beating up non-combatants is a lesser evil than killing non-combatants.


IT = Islamo Totalitarians (e.g., Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, Taliban, Baathists, et al) are waging war against Israeli non-combatants. Israelies should wage war against IT to end IT's war against Israeli non-combatants.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Sep, 2006 05:12 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Segregating non-combatants is a lesser evil than killing non-combatants.

Discriminating against non-combatants is a lesser evil than killing non-combatants.

Even beating up non-combatants is a lesser evil than killing non-combatants.


IT = Islamo Totalitarians (e.g., Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, Taliban, Baathists, et al) are waging war against Israeli non-combatants. Israelies should wage war against IT to end IT's war against Israeli non-combatants.


BETCHA!

When the IT stop waging war against the Israelies, the Israelies will stop:

Segregating non-combatants;

Discriminating against non-combatants;

Even beating up non-combatants.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Sep, 2006 06:30 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Lets make this simple.

Has Israel done some bad things?
YES,they have.

So lets make this simple.

Whatever the palestinian terrorists do to Israel,Israel is free to do the exact same thing to them.

If the terrorists blow up a bus and kill 30 Israeli's,then Israel is allowed to blow up and kill 30 palestinians.

That way,Israel is being perfectly fair and reacting the exact same way they were attacked.

Nobody can complain about that.


But then the tort of having imposed a discriminatory and oppressive ethnocentric state on the Palestinians would remain unredressed.
0 Replies
 
 

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