I know racism is out there. How do I react? Uh, I really don't "react." What am I going to do every time I read an article showing how a certain group of people are being treated unfairly? Plus you absolutely can't deny that there's racism against whites from blacks. I know it's different, but still.
I don't know what else to tell you. I gave you my point of view from the industry I work in, why and how it happens. There are regulations on it, and if someone gets caught the fines are huge. There's only so much you can do. I don't think ignorant racist people are ever going away.
May I suggest you merely internalize this anger until it reaches the boiling point and then rise up and kill the demon white man , slaughtering man woman and child alike until the streets run deep with blood and you cannot breathe without tasting copper? Just a suggestion.
I'll be having a beer over at George Carlins' and watching the fun.
But not this weekend please, I have to work.
Quote:One thing I don't understand----if the blacks and Hispanics in question have good credit, why do you think they aren't shopping around for better rates?
Unfortunatly, being young means you can make mistakes that will effect the next 10 year of your life. So, maybe they don't have the credit because they made a big mistake (like I did).
The argument isn't whether or not people with bad credit should still get good rates. The argument is would a black person get a 22% interest rate while a white got a 20% interest rate, if they had the exact same credit history/score?
What's the world coming to? I just read that the Gays in ProvinceTown are now discriminating and insulting heterosexuals.
What I can't understand, however, is why the Gays call the heterosexuals "Breeders".
Quote:blacks and Hispanics were 30% more likely than whites with similar credit ratings (italics mine) to be charged the highest rate.
Now, are we to assume that banks operated and owned by predominately by Blacks ( in Chicago for example ) also charge these higher rates to other Blacks?
How about Hispanics? Do banks in Texas, for instance, owned and operated predominately by Hispanics, also charge higher rates to other Hispanics?
Are members of one race, actually racist against other members of the same race? I say yes. What do you say?
Quote:would a black person get a 22% interest rate while a white got a 20% interest rate, if they had the exact same credit history/score?
Now, since loan officers never ask a potentional applicant for a loan, about their race, how does th bank official know what "race" the individual is? In other words, if a Black looks White, what kind of a rate does that person get?
Intermarriage among Blacks and Whites, for instance, has really complicated the ID of a person's race. What kind of a bank rate does a person get who's 90% white and 10% black?
snood wrote:
The last time I had the same kind of 'Dammit- how far have we really come?' feeling (and they don't last - I know I have to pretty much return to business as usual right away) was after watching an Oprah show a couple of years back. On the show, they had hired people to take similar sets of credentials (credit ratings, jobs, upwardly-mobile appearance, etc.) to car dealers and apartments for rent. They secretly video taped as overwhelmingly the white person got offered better deals, vacancies, etc.
The reaction from her audience members that day were fascinating. Even faced with video evidence, some whites still quibbled about extraneous things and squirmed in their denial.
I ask "What do you do with the evidence?" because I honestly want to know from your point of view. I have no investment in just sitting and whining about it. I don't live that way, and I don't want to post for that either.
I didn't squirm. I don't treat people like that, however, if you greet me with an in-your-face chip on your shoulder, well, I'm gonna think you have a problem, and I may take that into consideration for any business dealings with you.
IMO age discrimination is the predominant form these days, not racial. Take Google for example. If you're over the age of 25 and don't have a skill that is unique in the entire world, good luck getting an interview.
Miller wrote:Now, since loan officers never ask a potentional applicant for a loan, about their race, how does th bank official know what "race" the individual is? In other words, if a Black looks White, what kind of a rate does that person get?
It's usually the case when a bank person, mortgage broker, or car dealer meet the customer first. Not an online loan application, for example. Or if it was over the phone, then obviously sometimes you can tell a person's likely race by name and voice.
Bella Dea wrote:Quote:One thing I don't understand----if the blacks and Hispanics in question have good credit, why do you think they aren't shopping around for better rates?
Unfortunatly, being young means you can make mistakes that will effect the next 10 year of your life. So, maybe they don't have the credit because they made a big mistake (like I did).
The argument isn't whether or not people with bad credit should still get good rates. The argument is would a black person get a 22% interest rate while a white got a 20% interest rate, if they had the exact same credit history/score?
I think you may have misread my post, Bella, but things were so tense yesterday, I wanted to wait.
My question refers to black and hispanic consumers who DO have good credit. That was the premise of the thread, and the objection of the threadstarter.
(Helpful emoticon)
If they're not shopping around for the best rates they can get, I suppose that's their shortsightedness - their fault.
But if they are and still getting shafted, it's square one.
Slappy Doo Hoo wrote:Miller wrote:Now, since loan officers never ask a potentional applicant for a loan, about their race, how does th bank official know what "race" the individual is? In other words, if a Black looks White, what kind of a rate does that person get?
Iobviously sometimes you can tell a person's likely race by name and voice.
Sounds like you've never lived in the Deep South! Many Southern whites "sound" just like Blacks. Hmmmmmm! I know this as a fact.
I'd be interested in a specific review of that situation in your first post re the variables of type of loan, amount of loan, amount of income, ethnic/racial background (not sure what I think about looking at neighborhood-of-the-applicant housing prices or whether someone is a first time buyer, but maybe those matter.... don't know if they matter if you're white/anglo, hmmmm).
Slappy? Did you say name? Intermarriage? Adoption? Name change? North vs South?
No! You could have a difficult time trying to determine a person's "race" by their name.
Jones...is a good example! Murphy is also another good example.
snood wrote:If they're not shopping around for the best rates they can get, I suppose that's their shortsightedness - their fault.
But if they are and still getting shafted, it's square one.
Black and Hispanic Americans who have had the income and responsible patterns to acheive and maintain a good credit rating don't seem to be the "shortsighted" type to me.
If anyone happens upon actual numbers to shed a little light on the facts about this, I'd appreciate knowing where they are. Thanks.
Lash wrote:snood wrote:If they're not shopping around for the best rates they can get, I suppose that's their shortsightedness - their fault.
But if they are and still getting shafted, it's square one.
Black and Hispanic Americans who have had the income and responsible patterns to acheive and maintain a good credit rating don't seem to be the "shortsighted" type to me.
If anyone happens upon actual numbers to shed a little light on the facts about this, I'd appreciate knowing where they are. Thanks.
Actually, assuming they are smart and responsible as you alluded to, there's no reason to assume they hadn't tried to get the best possible deals.
snood wrote:Lash wrote:snood wrote:If they're not shopping around for the best rates they can get, I suppose that's their shortsightedness - their fault.
But if they are and still getting shafted, it's square one.
Black and Hispanic Americans who have had the income and responsible patterns to acheive and maintain a good credit rating don't seem to be the "shortsighted" type to me.
If anyone happens upon actual numbers to shed a little light on the facts about this, I'd appreciate knowing where they are. Thanks.
Actually, assuming they are smart and responsible as you alluded to, there's no reason to assume they hadn't tried to get the best possible deals.
And, I'm with you to that point. Where I go next is: If there is a legal template for interest rates due to good credit and a specific downpayment--there is a recourse if you are cheated.
I think we're at 1) they weren't equal in either credit or downpayment or income ability to make payments...
or
2) they were, and they were outright cheated.
I'd like to know which one it was, so if it was #2, we can find out how the institution got away with it.
I think we just agreed about something, and that's sort of a relief.
I guess the main difference I see in my reaction to this and yours is that I wouldn't question right away whether or not they were cheated, and look for alternative explanations.
Not that all cries of discrimination are true, but this one seemed solid enough that for me it didn't raise those kind of questions.
How do you define cheated? If, as slappy explained, racial profiling results in a loan offer at the upper edge of the allowable range (red-lining) then I think it's wrong morally but not ethically (cheating). The lender has an allowable range of loans that he can offer the same client. I don't like the idea of profiling, but there's no question it's commonplace. The issue, it would seem, is why, in a regulated industry, does the lender have the right to offer the same loan (taking jpin's criteria into account) to different individuals at different rates.
According to slappy's mark-up description, it falls within the legal practices of providing loans. Do I like it? Not at all. And snood, I'm disgusted when I see this type of thing, but I don't think it's as much an issue with the lenders who, face it, are in business to make a buck (and as many of them for as long as they can) as it is with the concept of allowing a mark-up range.
Is it discrimination? Yes, legal discrimination. Is it cheating? Not from what I've seen here.
I'm not sure if this is relevent or not but in 1970 my then wife accepted a teaching position at a state college in a medium sized town on the Texas/New Mexico border. When we arrived and were looking at finding housing, the Dean of the college along with a Banker showed us a map of the town with a red line around "appropriate" neighborhood housing that the bank would consider financing. We found a house outside of town that was neither inside nor outside the "appropriate" zone.
