I NEED SOME HELP IN UNDERSTANDING GERMANS.

So I guess the moral would be ... "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"?

<waaaaay innocennt face>

Well, you are correct, all, including The Economist.

However, you'll find not only close to the Polish border towns with great unemloyment (not 90%, about 30, officially - East compared to West is 19.1% to 8.8, last month's figures.)
This is mainly due to the fact that the old industrial plants weren't effective any more - those I saw, could have been from 1938 or so.

Has there been a lot of migration inside Germany, Walter?

Yes, about 20% (perhaps now more, couldn't find actual numbers) of East Germans settled in the West.

And a great number is working in western states, with their (east) firms.
An even greater number is driving daily/weekly to West German working places, especially from the former "border countries".

How are Germans especially different, from other countries?
Some interesting statistics are here, but if you find others, please let me know...

germany vs america
The Germans have a 12 year history of genocide but have historically produced more geniuses in literature, philosophy, music, mathematics and science than about any country you could name.

America has a 200+ year history of genocide and has produced no one of any note.

America should be destroyed as a matter of global hygiene.

First of all, I would not accuse Germany and German people in genocide, I would readress these accusations to a particular political party, namely NSDAP. Many of the people that gave their vote to Hitler did this since they supported his economic program and not racial theories. When he established the totalitarianstate, it became impossible to remove him without help from outside.
I would not accuse the USA in genocide either. The feud with Indians took place in 18th-19th centuries, and at that time there were another rules of making war, and the term "the war crime" has not been introduced. I also heard about numerous instances of torture, killing and other types of mistreatment of the U.S. POWs by Indians.
I would not either deny American contribution to science and technology. Even the PC that you used for denigrating the USA is the American invention. Add to this incandescent bulb, telephone, polyo vaccine, deciphering of the DNA code (in co-authorship with the British scientists), description of the human genome, even Viagra®...
I wonder, Mr. Green, whether you are an American. If you are the one, why do not you consider changing both citizenship and residence? You hate your country so much that you call for its destruction. I heard that such people are welcome in North Korea and Iran...
If you are not an American, IMO, you should take into consideration that majority of the veteran members of this forum, including its founding dads and mums, are. Some of them are critical toward the current administartion, but none of them is a hater of their country. Have you taken into consideration their feelings?

Yes, that was quite an opener, henrygreen.

It is the only intemperate post among dozens on a good-humoured and thoughtful thread.

McT

Walter, I'm sure the migration of eastern Germans have exacerbated the unemployment problem in Germany to its current levels, but the primary culprit for unemployment all around the globe has been the tech bust and overall global economic downturn beginning with 9-11, the Gulf War, and SARS. What is the "official" and "actual" unemployment in Germany today? c.i.

Were one interested in knowing where the Germans came from, and who they became in western Europe 1500 years ago, i would recommend a paper back in which the lectures of J.M. Barry are collected, he was the authority on Germans in late Imperial and early Gothic times in his lifetime. I went to the Library of Congress for a citation, but the name is too common, and the subject . . . "The Germans" . . . too vast for me to have tracked him down without hours or days of searching. I'll see if can get a citation for y'all . . .

But the point i would make is that, in terms of descent, Germans are present in Italy, France, Spain, and North Africa from 1500 years ago and more, in addition to the central European home ground one would tend to think of immediately. There is almost no nation of Europe without a German admixture to a greater or lesser extent . . . yeah, Henrygreen, them 'Mericans is a bunch a pea-wits, too bad they can't be all cool an' stuff, like them Europeens.

America has an obsession with Hitler. We have to mention Hitler 25,000 per day because if we don't, we will have to deal with the REALLY scary Germans: Goethe, Bach, Wagner, Heisenberg, Nietzsche, Rilke, Beethoven....a mile long list of names, the LEAST of whom so utterly eclipse anything produced in America as to make the true dimensions of our defective septic tank appallingly plain.

As to America's conduct in the world, humanity has just about had it and will no longer stick up for the murderers of 3 million Vietnamese, the destroyers of Afghanistan and Iraq...this rogue state which has advertised its distain for all international law--a worthless pigsty whose primary contribution to mankind remains napalm.

One can defend human rights, human dignity, international law, regard for the natural environment...OR one can defend the United States. You can not defend both.


Anti-Americanism is a moral imperative. It is nothing to hide but rather something for decent, caring people to take personal pride in.

By the way, the thread is about Germany and not the USA, is not it?
Sorry for having responded to the first U.S.-related publication of Mr. Green, but I was so angry with its contents that I could not remain silent.
And regarding Beethoven, Bach, von Göthe, Wagner and other titans of the German culture and their comparison to the U.S. achievements: there are high art and pop culture in every nation, and if you make a deeper search, you will find outstanding people in the U.S. literature, art and music as well. Some good will is needed for searching for the positive sides...

Re: I NEED SOME HELP IN UNDERSTANDING GERMANS.
Okay, Mapleleaf, let me go through your list.


I'd say it's mostly true, and it maybe one reason why German businesspeople have found it hard to develop attitudes that are helpful in the service industry.


True, except that Germany was "only" responsible for the European part of World War II. The Japanese are the ones responsible for the Asian part.


Walter would know how true this was before the Iron Curtain fell. Since then, after a brief Reunification boom, Germany has rather dragged the European economy down.


True from about 1910 to 1945. Not true before and after.


That was the Nazi ideal, but it is definitely far from true. Note how hard it is to find a blond haired man even among the top Nazis -- I couldn't think of any from the top of my head.


Everyone looses their industrious spirit under Communism. The interesting observation was that productivity in West Germany was the highest in Western Europe, and productivity in East Germany was the highest in Eastern Europe. This indicates there was something about Germans that persisted under the different economic systems.


That was true in the 18th and 19th century. I'm not sure it was true in the 20th.


are held in high esteem, and are probably more highly subsidized in Germany than anywhere else in the free world. This is certainly good for artists -- whether it is good for art is another question. My impression is that American artists, while poorer, tend to be more creative.


Practically nil outside the Black Forest itself. It's mostly a wicked scheme to attract American tourists to the Black Forest.


Who doesn't love nature? However, the Green movement got into parliament in Germany earlier than elsewhere in Europe


Neither more nor less true than for any European country.

-- Thomas

Good will and a lot of imagination.

If there was any justification for destroying Germany in order to put an end to its murderous onslaught, there is today far greater justification for putting an end to the United States before it has a chance to drive the species extinct, as it seems quite intent on doing.

There was no justification for destroying Germany; but replacement of Hitler was fully justified. Unfortunately, this was impossible without destruction of this great country: German military were much more efficient and motivated than the Iraqi ones.

Henrygreen's vituperative and hateful post is predicated upon the two assumptions that it is justified to both ignore Americans of genius in arts and sciences, and to equate the significantly unpopular actions of a single executive administration with the entirety of the United States--by which he cannot help but mean the entire population, for whatever protestations he may make to contrary.

So i will quote for him one of the citizens of this nation which he admires so much, and warn him that his hatred is consuming him:

"He who would fight monsters should look to that he does not become a monster himself . . . when you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss gazes into you . . . "

F. Neitzsche

There is nothing wrong in admiring Germany, it deserves admiration for lots of reasons. But this must not be combined with hatred toward the other democratic civilized nations.

henrygreen's opinion are ... well, somewhat peculiar.


c.i.

Very seldom it is explained that German numbers of unimployment exist of any person without employment and officially looking for one - no matter, how long this may have been. (For example, my wife is among that number, now 8 years without work - some 100,000 are above 58 years old and just 'waiting' for their pensions ...)

The official figures for last month (April) are:
Germany totally: 10.8% (West: 8.6% , East: 19.1%)

This mades in EU-standard 9.4% for all Germany.

Germany's astounding contributions in no way mitigate the horrors it imposed on Europe's Jews. By what feat of madness is America--this mediocre backwater of no significance, to be excused for 200 years of slaughter and cruelty? I'm all ears.

Yes, i'm sure you would be happy to set the terms and definitions of such a diatribe-based argument in advance . . . rather in the "Have you stopped beating your wife" category of a priori bases for argument . . . i cannot help but find your venom hillarious, though: "backwater of no significance" just rocks . . . ah me, i love hyperbole, but the more so when the author doesn't even understand the joke . . . you know, were this a backwater of no significance, it certainly could not pose the threat to the world which you alleged. You need to work these contraditions out of your dogma before you begin the life-long chore of foisting it off upon the incredulous and bored . . .