Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 04:57 am
Frank Apisa wrote:
But the bag of wind has a long way to go here...and we don't want to deflate him too quickly. We gotta play with him for a while.


Agreed Smile

It does appear to be a very Christian definition of atheist in that dictionary though....I'm just surprised by it, even if I am a bit off topic generally.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 05:11 am
For most atheists, the use of the word is unambiguous. Same with agnostics. The rest is word games.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 05:21 am
BDV, there are few things that most people active in this thread can agree on, but one of them is likely to be that atheist can be commonly defined either as someone who is without god, or someone who denies that any god exists. Your personal, idiosyncratic definitions of the word not only bear no relationship to any commonly understood definition of atheist, they serve only to obscure the course of the discussion.

You perhaps ought to have started a discussion in which you sought to get your personal and idiosyncratic definitions of atheist and agnostic accepted as the basis for discussion before plunging into attempts to propagandize those points of view. However, i really doubt that you're going to get anyone to agree with you that monotheism is a form of atheism--you're swimming against the tide, and that serves to hinder your attempt to discuss this with others. Here, people commonly accept a reasonable authority for a definition--such as a dictionary--or offer their own reasonable authority for a definition, so that terms can be agreed upon and the discussion proceed. You attempt to foist your personal definitions on the discussion, which only hinders the attempt to discuss.

I consider it reasonable to assert that no one here is going to agree with you that monotheism constitutes a form of atheism--the logical end of such an argument is taht the only theists are those who believe that every god ever proposed does in fact exist. Can you really not see how absurd that position is?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 06:56 am
megamanXplosion wrote:
Have you provided historical facts or entymological facts? No, but I have. Have you used logically fallacious arguments like appealing to authority and appealing to popularity? Yes, but I have not. Have you posted personal attacks like "bag of wind" and "fraud"? Yes, but I have not.

If you truly think you can "deflate" this "bag of wind" then do it.


It's already mostly done...but you just don't realize it yet.

It will soon become apparent.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 06:59 am
edgarblythe wrote:
For most atheists, the use of the word is unambiguous. Same with agnostics. The rest is word games.


I could not agree more.

YOU, Edgar, are an atheist. So is ci.

Most of these mealy-mouthed pretend atheists deserve all the derision they are getting. And I am delighted to be serving it up.
0 Replies
 
BDV
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 07:59 am
Setanta wrote:
You perhaps ought to have started a discussion in which you sought to get your personal and idiosyncratic definitions of atheist and agnostic accepted as the basis for discussion before plunging into attempts to propagandize those points of view.


Well one of the sources I was using in the hope to explain Atheism is below, and thats where I took the idea that most people are atheists of some form or the other. So it isn't just me with this idea.

Quote:
We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.

- Richard Dawkins, 2003


Well set thanx for the answer, and probably this is why I started the thread in first place, and if you look at the questions they do point at this, that is to see if I could get a clear def on the two and peoples opinion, and I have to say that before I started it I believed I was an agnostic, but now after the many discussions that have happened I would probably say I am a Deist (As long as I got the def correct for it - Deists reject organized religion and promote reason as the essential element in making moral decisions), anyway that still doesn't explain why the likes of Richard Hawkins, who is a well known atheist would make such a comment if he did not have a similar def for atheism as myself.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 08:24 am
First, Mr. Dawkins is not the final, definite source for a definition of atheism. Second, you misconstrue his use of the term in that sentence, in which he uses it to elucidate a point he wishes to make--i strongly suspect that he was not attempting to redefine the term atheist, but only to make a point about monotheism in the context to the entire panoply of human theistic theorizing.

As for your definition of deist, when i consult Answers-dot-com, what i read does no violence to my understanding of the term:

Answers-dot-com wrote:
One who believes in the existence of a God, but denies revealed religion; a freethinker.


Your comment about a deist being one who relies upon reason may be included in a definition which you have read, but not provided here. However, i am willing to assert to you here that such a contention is interpretive, and not axiomatically to be considered a part of the definition of a deist. Your case could probably be more easily made by asserting that those who espouse deism have notably claimed that they are motivated by an appeal to reason.

There was, in fact, a sect of Catholics who, abandoning the theological authority of the Papacy, claimed to establish their beliefs upon reason. Their thinking may not entirely appeal to you, as they held their belief in a context of remaining Christians. Those were the Socinians. You might find it interesting to do a little online research on Socinian or Socinianism, as it is not a dead cult of centuries gone by--it has become a school of philosophical thought. It might appeal to you, or you might at least find their ideas compelling--i couldn't say. For my part, having learned of them, past and present, i am content to go no further with it.
0 Replies
 
BDV
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 08:41 am
Thanx set, will definately look at that. I would say that your description of atheism is correct, it helps to get a clear explanation. So what are my own thoughts or beliefs at the moment, I have no idea lol, maybe that makes me an agnostic, I don't think deism fits the profile, but unfortuately nor does gnostism, but then does it matter how you are labled, I know what I am not, not what i am.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 11:43 am
Frank Apisa wrote:
megamanXplosion wrote:
Have you provided historical facts or entymological facts? No, but I have. Have you used logically fallacious arguments like appealing to authority and appealing to popularity? Yes, but I have not. Have you posted personal attacks like "bag of wind" and "fraud"? Yes, but I have not.

If you truly think you can "deflate" this "bag of wind" then do it.


It's already mostly done...but you just don't realize it yet.

It will soon become apparent.

It's been unambiguously apparent all along to those able to recognize and distinguish between sophistry and valid argument. Conviction vs arrogance, megaman? Indeed. You, by your posts so far, stand self-convicted both of arrogance and sophistry.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 11:47 am
BDV wrote:
Thanx set, will definately look at that. I would say that your description of atheism is correct, it helps to get a clear explanation. So what are my own thoughts or beliefs at the moment, I have no idea lol, maybe that makes me an agnostic, I don't think deism fits the profile, but unfortuately nor does gnostism, but then does it matter how you are labled, I know what I am not, not what i am.


The labels matter to some people, who have a stake in asserting the superiority of their belief set. Personally, i would assert that what matters is whether or not you are personally comfortable with what you believe, and what you know. Others may assert that what you believe is wrong or believed upon a flawed basis, and that you don't in fact know what you purport to know. At the end of the day, though, they don't climb into bed with you, and what matters to you will most likely determine whether you get a good night's sleep.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 01:04 pm
Doktor S wrote:
I am an atheist, as I am 'without theology'. That is what an atheist is..one who lacks a belief in god or gods.
An atheist, counter to christian propaganda, does not need to outright deny the possibility of any sort of 'higher power' to qualify for his position.


Really? I didn't know that. I guess I might be an athiest, but I'm not sure, so I might still be an agnostic. Ughhh.

Is there a latin term for people who don't care?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 01:07 pm
Yes, homo sapiens sapiens . . .
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 01:13 pm
Setanta wrote:
Yes, homo sapiens sapiens . . .


Oops, I meant "don't care about labeling themselves one way or the other", not "don't care in general" Smile
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 01:15 pm
Just havin' a little fun, Boss . . .
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 01:23 pm
Setanta wrote:
Just havin' a little fun, Boss . . .


No problem Set. Me too Smile
0 Replies
 
BDV
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 01:51 pm
Yeah, don't care sounds good, there must be a word for that (Agnostic!!). Sleeping is fine and i am quite happy with what i know and who i am (But you can always learn more), i have been researching religion and the likes for a few years and have become very dismayed with the way theists have lied and distorted truths (And history) and demanded faith in return for my hard earned cash. I have heard so many excuses from mistranslations to magical tricks that it bears any belief that there is any religion today.

I personally live within christian religious extremism, where many people have died and been mamed in the name of religions, and then within a small area (Pop 150,000) 26 priests have been accussed/convicted of peodophilic acts in 20 years. Surely a good God would stop this ? it seems baptism by groin is very common in the catholic church. I remember one church goer being interviewed, ask "What does he think?" he replied "Oh, we all make mistakes", bloody hell how brain washed is he ?

Do i believe in an after life, well yes and no, this is probably my search. I think that makes me a possible agnostic, but in terms of christian relgions, they have alot to answer too, and no thanx.

Atheism is a path i don't believe i will travel (Especially now i have a reasonable def of the word), there too many unanswered questions to proclaim myself an atheist and at this moment I believe there is beings higher than us, and possibly in control.

I read recently that there is a new theory in quantum physics, (Not sure the name or source, can't find science mag at mo) but it proclaims that there is a possibility that life is just part of a big movie, everything has been predestined to happen, but as i said its a theory, but if so then our paths have been set by something/one in higher command.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 03:28 pm
A movie directed by the great Sam Pekinpah in the sky?
0 Replies
 
Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 07:15 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
Doktor S wrote:
I am an atheist, as I am 'without theology'. That is what an atheist is..one who lacks a belief in god or gods.
An atheist, counter to christian propaganda, does not need to outright deny the possibility of any sort of 'higher power' to qualify for his position.


Really? I didn't know that. I guess I might be an atheist, but I'm not sure, so I might still be an agnostic. Ughhh.

Is there a latin term for people who don't care?

I believe Phoenix is fond of the term'apatheist'
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 09:30 pm
Doktor S wrote:
I believe Phoenix is fond of the term'apatheist'


I like it. Let's practice apatheism.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jun, 2006 09:35 pm
I'd rather practice napatheism. I need a good snooze -- ah, and I think this thread has accomplished that.
0 Replies
 
 

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