edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 05:26 pm
I've already had my discussions with you, Frank. Nothing to be gained by reiterating what's already said. Go peddle your papers where the gullible roam.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 05:30 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
I've already had my discussions with you, Frank. Nothing to be gained by reiterating what's already said. Go peddle your papers where the gullible roam.


Better than trying to peddle 'em to people too in love with their guesses to acknowledge what they do not know.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 05:31 pm
When I don't know, you will be the first I tell.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 05:34 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
When I don't know, you will be the first I tell.


When you finally find out you don't...

...you should tell yourself first!

But you're probably gonna have to battle yourself to accept it.
0 Replies
 
Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 05:34 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
edgarblythe wrote:
I log in as an atheist. I don't consider agnosticism viable, any more than religion.


Theism is pretty much a belief (or guess) that there is a God.

Atheism is pretty much a belief (or guess) that there are no gods.

Agnosticism is acknowledgement that we do not know...and further acknowledges that we do not have enough unambiguous evidence about the nature of REALITY specifically to include or exclude the notion of gods.

Atheists and theists are essentially the same thing...except that the guesses made are in different directions.

You honestly see the multiple assumption based position that there is an all powerful entity,and this entity created the universe somehow, and further this entity took a roll in human development, as being on the level with the assumption this isn't the case?
No attack here, I am honestly curious. I have seen you chant this mantra enough times to realize you probably aren't joking...

For a true dichotomy, it would have to be an assertion of 'something' vs an assertion of 'nothing'. An atheist doesn't have to assert 'nothing' In fact, I have never heard an intelligent (or even unintelligent, for that matter) atheist assert 'the universe came from nothing'
That theists do not assert an ambiguous 'something', but a very specific and defined 'something', makes their proposition even more unlikely than 'nothing', as they are adding un-needed causes as per occams razor

Would you not, in order to be truly 'agnostic', have to lend the more credibility to 'nothing' (an absolute) than any specific variation of 'something' (abrahamic, hindu, norse, etc)?
Meaning, to be agnostic, would you not have to accept all possibilities and variations of deity as equally likely?
I am truly curious.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 05:40 pm
Doktor S wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
edgarblythe wrote:
I log in as an atheist. I don't consider agnosticism viable, any more than religion.


Theism is pretty much a belief (or guess) that there is a God.

Atheism is pretty much a belief (or guess) that there are no gods.

Agnosticism is acknowledgement that we do not know...and further acknowledges that we do not have enough unambiguous evidence about the nature of REALITY specifically to include or exclude the notion of gods.

Atheists and theists are essentially the same thing...except that the guesses made are in different directions.

You honestly see the multiple assumption based position that there is an all powerful entity,and this entity created the universe somehow, and further this entity took a roll in human development, as being on the level with the assumption this isn't the case?
No attack here, I am honestly curious. I have seen you chant this mantra enough times to realize you probably aren't joking...


I don't even have to get into that, Doc.

The question being asked is: What is the nature of REALITY?

I DO NOT KNOW WHAT IT IS...

...and the notion that there is a God or are gods seems no less likely than the notion that there are none.


Do you KNOW what the nature of REALITY is????


Quote:

For a true dichotomy, it would have to be an assertion of 'something' vs an assertion of 'nothing'. An atheist doesn't have to assert 'nothing' In fact, I have never heard an intelligent (or even unintelligent, for that matter) atheist assert 'the universe came from nothing'
That theists do not assert an ambiguous 'something', but a very specific and defined 'something', makes their proposition even more unlikely than 'nothing', as they are adding un-needed causes as per occams razor


Not sure of what you point is here.

BOTTOM LINE: Do you know what the nature of reality is???


Quote:

Would you not, in order to be truly 'agnostic', have to lend the more credibility to 'nothing' (an absolute) than any specific variation of 'something' (abrahamic, hindu, norse, etc)?
Meaning, to be agnostic, would you not have to accept all possibilities and variations of deity as equally likely?
I am truly curious.


No more than I would have to accept that there may be purple CPA's operating on one of Saturn's moons.

One thing that I know is possible is...

...that I may be the only thing that exists anywhere.

If so, I am GOD.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 05:47 pm
Frank can't think beyond his agnosticism. He thinks no one else can, too. He is like a beetle in a jar, waving his legs, unable to get anywhere.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 05:53 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
Frank can't think beyond his agnosticism. He thinks no one else can, too. He is like a beetle in a jar, waving his legs, unable to get anywhere.


I've got the balls and ethics to acknowledge that I do not know the nature of REALITY.

Do you want some lessons in how to develop those things, Edgar?
0 Replies
 
Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 05:59 pm
It doesn't have to be a matter of black and white absolutes, frank, when shades of grey and probability will do.
Do you ascribe equal weight to the flying spaghetti monster as you do to the abrahamic deity? If not, why? This is not a joke or bait, this is an honest question.
You are right, nobody knows the nature of reality, and any position taken on such is essentially a guess. This does not mean all guesses are equally probable, though.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 06:10 pm
Doktor S wrote:
It doesn't have to be a matter of black and white absolutes, frank, when shades of grey and probability will do.
Do you ascribe equal weight to the flying spaghetti monster as you do to the abrahamic deity?



Nope.


Quote:
If not, why?


Because of context.


Quote:
This is not a joke or bait, this is an honest question.


Well...it is a route often taken by atheists.

It may not be a joke...but it doesn't fall short by much.


Quote:

You are right, nobody knows the nature of reality, and any position taken on such is essentially a guess.


All indications seem to point to all of the postions being nothing more than guesses.


Quote:

This does not mean all guesses are equally probable, though.


Okay...I'll accept your assessment.

So what, exactly, is the probability (or likelihood) of there being no gods associated with REALITY...and what, exactly, is the probability of there being a God or gods????

Aside from "they cannot produce a God" and "there is no need for a God" (neither of which is evidence that there are no gods)...what is the evidence you have for your probability estimate that there are no gods?
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 07:05 pm
Ah, Frank, if you but had the guts you so vehemenently espouse, you would quit your quibbling with the imaginary and accept what in your gut you probably know.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 07:12 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
Ah, Frank, if you but had the guts you so vehemenently espouse, you would quit your quibbling with the imaginary and accept what in your gut you probably know.


You do not KNOW anything in your gut.

In fact...when someone uses the expression "I know it in my gut"...he is actually saying "I don't know it, but I do not want to acknowledge or admit I do not know it."


Keep pretending you know there are no gods, Edgar. It makes you happy...and calms your fears. What more can anyone ask for?
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 07:14 pm
What are these "fears" you ascribe to those with whom you disagree, Frank? I've searched high and low and have yet to catch a glimmer of just one.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 07:40 pm
"Faith is believing what you know isn't so"
Mark Twain
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 07:47 pm
I get weary, oh so weary, of this go around the merrygoround.

I post only to mention that I'd like to see BDV's original post clarified a bit.
Reminds me a bit of my own stream of consciousness posting, so I can't be too critical.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 07:53 pm
ossobuco wrote:
I get weary, oh so weary, of this go around the merrygoround.

Sorta the same fascination presented by car wrecks, ain't it?

Quote:
I post only to mention that I'd like to see BDV's original post clarified a bit.
Reminds me a bit of my own stream of consciousness posting, so I can't be too critical.

Oh, of course you can - in fact, now that you've brought it up, we're counting on you - don't let us down :wink:
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 07:56 pm
So what else do you expect from a thread with that title?
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 08:02 pm
True, Edgar. That tone is, as it happens, part of my round of questions on the original post. Not that I'll argue with the legitimacy of the question once I discern it more exactly.

Back in a bit. Gotta chop some onions or the soup will never get going.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 08:08 pm
I don't like to go round and round with Frank like this, but, he is so darned cute, frothing at the mouth. Hard to ignore it.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 08:12 pm
The original post is ethenstentialism. Okay, I know that's not a word. It does lisp off the lips, however.
0 Replies
 
 

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