Agnostic vs Atheist

hephzibah wrote:

Frank, I've got a question for you.

You said:

Quote:
But of course, there is:

Exodus 33:11

And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.

However if you read that whole paragraph, not just one sentence it says:

7 Moses took his tent and pitched it outside the camp, far from the camp, and called it the tabernacle of meeting. And it came to pass that everyone who sought the LORD went out to the tabernacle of meeting which was outside the camp. 8 So it was, whenever Moses went out to the tabernacle, that all the people rose, and each man stood at his tent door and watched Moses until he had gone into the tabernacle. 9 And it came to pass, when Moses entered the tabernacle, that the pillar of cloud descended and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses. 10 All the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the tabernacle door, and all the people rose and worshiped, each man in his tent door. 11 So the LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend.

So my question is: if there was a pillar of cloud that descended each time God would meet Moses in the temple, how could Moses have literally seen God's face?

Beats the hell out of me. All I know is that the Bible says that "...the LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. "

So I am not saying anyone did anything...I am just saying that the Bible says....what it says.

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Bartikus wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Bartikus wrote:
I do have a little better understanding of the atheist and agnostic position than I once had.

Frank is not easily swayed toward one direction or another and though I don't agree with his position......

My position is:

I do not know if there is a God or gods...I do not know that there are no gods...I do not have enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess...I therefor decline to make guesses about the issue.

Just what part of that do you "not agree" with???

Quote:
Although I don't think he will have to wait a million years to find out as none of us will.

Did some part of this sentence not get printed out???

I should have said I do not adhere or hold your agnostic postion.

Okay. But I was commenting on what you actually said...rather than what you should have said.

Quote:

I didn't grow up in a very affluent setting.

Neither did I.

Quote:

I grew up in the hood as some would say.

Same with me.

Quote:

My family could not afford to send me to a rich boy's school to develop my reading and writing skills to the level you would deem worthy of your reading Mr. Apisa.

I went to a rather poor public school. They were more than adequate to the job. But then again...I started with a brain.

Quote:

What do you care what I do or don't agree with anyways?

This is a discussion forum, Doc. That is what we do. We respond to what other write.

Jeez!

So tell me...us...Doc...

...what part of my agnostic postition do you not "adhere or hold" to?

Is it: I do not know if there is a God or gods?

Is it: I do not know that there are no gods?

Is it: I do not have enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess?

Is it: I therefor decline to make guesses about the issue?

Do you know if there is a God or gods?

Do you know that there are no gods?

If no, do you have unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaninful guess?

Or are you just a big mouth who got caught shooting off his big mouth and cannot figure a way out of the hole he is digging for himself?

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Frank Apisa wrote:

hephzibah wrote:
Frank, I've got a question for you.

You said:

Quote:
But of course, there is:

Exodus 33:11

And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.

However if you read that whole paragraph, not just one sentence it says:

7 Moses took his tent and pitched it outside the camp, far from the camp, and called it the tabernacle of meeting. And it came to pass that everyone who sought the LORD went out to the tabernacle of meeting which was outside the camp. 8 So it was, whenever Moses went out to the tabernacle, that all the people rose, and each man stood at his tent door and watched Moses until he had gone into the tabernacle. 9 And it came to pass, when Moses entered the tabernacle, that the pillar of cloud descended and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses. 10 All the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the tabernacle door, and all the people rose and worshiped, each man in his tent door. 11 So the LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend.

So my question is: if there was a pillar of cloud that descended each time God would meet Moses in the temple, how could Moses have literally seen God's face?

Beats the hell out of me. All I know is that the Bible says that "...the LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. "

So I am not saying anyone did anything...I am just saying that the Bible says....what it says.

Ok fair enough. It just sounded like, by the scriptures you posted, that there was an implication there that the bible was contradicting itself. Sorry if I was jumping to a conclusion there. By the way Frank, good to see you back. When I left you had left as well. Smile

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hephzibah wrote:

Ok fair enough. It just sounded like, by the scriptures you posted, that there was an implication there that the bible was contradicting itself. Sorry if I was jumping to a conclusion there. By the way Frank, good to see you back. When I left you had left as well.

Good to see you too, Heph.

By the way...the Bible does contradict itself time after time.

Here's a link to a few hundred of the more obvious contradictions:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html

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Thanks Frank... I think it would be more fun to discuss these "contradictions" though.

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hephzibah wrote:

Thanks Frank... I think it would be more fun to discuss these "contradictions" though.

Start the thread...and put a link here.

I'll participate gladly. Twisted Evil

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Nice link, plenty of interesting stuff there

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Alright, I'll get right on that Frank. Smile

Link coming soon....

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Frank Apisa wrote:

The question being asked is: What is the nature of REALITY?

I DO NOT KNOW WHAT IT IS...

...and the notion that there is a God or are gods seems no less likely than the notion that there are none.

Do you KNOW what the nature of REALITY is????

BOTTOM LINE: Do you know what the nature of reality is???

No. But why should an atheist have to, to proclaim themself atheist.

At most the atheist is denying that the true nature of reality is supernatural. In so doing they assert that the universe and its operations are what constitute reality. A "closed system" rather than one subject to interference from a supernatural entity.

In the absence of evidence to the contrary, are they not entitled to claim themselves atheist ?

It's a reasonable and modest claim I think.

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Atheist is the only position with any sense to it. The rest is wishful thinking, ignorance and fear.

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I feel a merry go round a 'comin....

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Not by me, Snood. I just wanted to throw a bit of common sense in the mix occasionally, to keep Frank on his toes. I have made all the arguments for my position I intend to make. Those who accept it don't need reiteration, and the ones like Frank are incapable.

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edgarblythe wrote:

Atheist is the only position with any sense to it. The rest is wishful thinking, ignorance and fear.

I am thinking that the only part of this post that you can be sure of is that you are an athiest. The rest is conjecture.

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It is conjecture only in the minds of deists and agnostics, because they can't see the fly on the end of their nose.

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I don't, for one minute, believe that I have a fly on the end of my nose. I do believe that Frank has a fly on his nose. He just can't see it.

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peas in a pod.

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I know you are, but what am I?

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edgarblythe wrote:

Atheist is the only position with any sense to it. The rest is wishful thinking, ignorance and fear.

To be an atheist.......

from merriamwebster.com

Quote:

atheist
One entry found for atheist.
Main Entry: athe·ist
Pronunciation: 'A-thE-ist
Function: noun
: one who believes that there is no deity
- athe·is·tic /"A-thE-'is-tik/ or athe·is·ti·cal /"A-thE-'is-ti-k&l/ adjective
- athe·is·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb

emphasis mine

.....one would have to possess the attribute of omniscience, to know for certain that there is no God anywhere.

Of course, in asserting omniscience that person would be saying that he himself fits one of the classic definitions of God.

(Now, you can make up your own special definition for 'atheist' and say that it actually means what you [/i] say it means and not what everybody else commonly accepts it to mean.

My kids used to make up special definitions for words all the time when they were about 3 or 4. It's a fun game, but hardly conducive to reasoned conversation.)

So, anyone omniscient out there?

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One does not need omnisciense. The first step is to avoid loaded definitions and instead use common sense. I have stated my case early in the thread and see no need to restate it.

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Merriam Webster is hardly a repository of 'loaded definitions'.

If you want to use a 'special definition' of your own , EB, go ahead.

It's like if you want to use the word 'turnip' to describe a car.

Don't be surprised when most folks tell you that you can't drive a turnip , and they consider it silly when you insist you can.

But , have fun Laughing

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Agnostic vs Atheist

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