0
   

Did you have a Spiritual Awakening?

 
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 05:29 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
you ask for something in a prayer. You don't get it. some will say, see, God doesn't answer prayers. Some will say God answered no. A matter of perspective.


Holy shyt, Bear...you are becoming quite the philosopher.


Well, I'm drunk. Laughing
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 05:30 pm
and a little stoned. I have the den to myself this evening.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 05:31 pm
I prolly don't haveta mention this...

...but I'm jealous. I envy ya.

Twisted Evil
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 05:32 pm
By the by, Bear...

is "a little stoned" anything like being "a little pregnant?"
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 05:33 pm
Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 05:33 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
By the by, Bear...

is "a little stoned" anything like being "a little pregnant?"


well I'm like first trimester stoned right now but give me a little time and my water will be breaking....
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 05:34 pm
Its good to have goals - to set oneself a direction and establish waypoints by which to measure progress.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 05:35 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Its good to have goals - to set oneself a direction and establish waypoints by which to measure progress.


thanks timber... now just pass that along huh?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 05:38 pm
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
thanks timber... now just pass that along huh?

Huh? .... oh, yeah. Sorry, think it went out. Who's got a light?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 05:42 pm
Don't Bogart the J with that bullshyt, Timber. Pass it on.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 08:51 pm
I've been considering this issue and similar ones over the past year....

People have a lot more power than they realize. For instance, in the Registrar's Office, I notice the same people have problems that require intervention. They show up in some kind of trouble routinely. Several of them have said it's just their luck. Bad things are always happening to them. When I was depressed, I considered myself unlucky. We construct sympathetic and friendly systems to agree with our reality.

The reason the same students don't get the classes they want is because they don't pay attention to their responsibilities--they don't check their e-mails, they aren't engaged in the necessary trivia that makes up their life. They **** up, and the consequences follow. It's easier to blame bad luck than to be responsible for your own failings.

I wasn't unlucky, I was careless in my choices. When I came to junctures in my life, where I knew the smart thing to do--I refused. I went with my heart. Bad choices. Not luck.

There's a lot going on in our subconscious that "makes our luck."

People in AA are trained to grab on to God, because they are conditioned to believe (and affirm) that they are powerless and God is their only source of salvation--literally and figuratively. How can this not set these recovering alcoholics up for a massive fall. They put all their eggs in the God basket, after being forced to take them out of the alcohol basket. Consciously, that's making a human being incredibly vulnerable to the emotions that swirl around religion--but I think the real danger is what that can do to a person subconsciously.

I don't know what it's like to be an alcoholic, but I know what it's like to live with one. I strongly believe there is a powerful reason for each person's alcoholism. Whatever that reason is, it is the strongest thing in the alcoholic's life. Being drunk is the only thing that can give the alcoholic relief. When the drunkeness threatens to destroy their life, they have to let go of one life raft (alcohol), and grab on to another one to make it. That in itself shows the frightening dynamic going on with alcoholics, and how desperately they are forced to cling to God.

That kind of "religion" is almost as dangerous as the ill it seeks to heal.

Ipsofacto, submerging oneself into the AA religion likely opens people up to belief in all manner of things to support their life raft. They NEED God to be true. They can't survive without it.

I'm not sure that's intelligible. Hope someone understood.
0 Replies
 
Scott777ab
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 09:54 pm
snood wrote:

Oh - it read like you explained how you came to be in the church you're in now. Not the same, IMO.


Actually I am not in church
Read the post.
It says the church that comes closest to what I believe is the the I.F.B.ers.

Now If you read the top of my post I said I was going to keep it short.
YES a lot more happened inbetween.
Visions
Dreams
Acts of Power that can not be explained.
Prophecies Given and Fullfilled.
Visions Given and Fullfilled.
Dreams Given and Fullfilled.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jun, 2006 10:14 pm
Lash:
Quote:
I've been considering this issue and similar ones over the past year....

People have a lot more power than they realize. For instance, in the Registrar's Office, I notice the same people have problems that require intervention. They show up in some kind of trouble routinely. Several of them have said it's just their luck. Bad things are always happening to them. When I was depressed, I considered myself unlucky. We construct sympathetic and friendly systems to agree with our reality.

The reason the same students don't get the classes they want is because they don't pay attention to their responsibilities--they don't check their e-mails, they aren't engaged in the necessary trivia that makes up their life. They **** up, and the consequences follow. It's easier to blame bad luck than to be responsible for your own failings.

I wasn't unlucky, I was careless in my choices. When I came to junctures in my life, where I knew the smart thing to do--I refused. I went with my heart. Bad choices. Not luck.


I can agree with all this - it can be capsulized by saying "Take responsibility for the consequences of your own actions." The only thing I think I disagree with is the implication that somehow since AA's say they rely on a higher power, that they wimp out of that responsibility. That is not my experience with AA. I know some holy-roller AAs, and I know some AAs who don't book-thump at all. They are a diverse people - maybe the most diverse group I've ever been associated with. But among those with longterm sobriety that I know, there's not a one who sits on their hands and waits for life to be handed to them.

Quote:
There's a lot going on in our subconscious that "makes our luck."

People in AA are trained to grab on to God, because they are conditioned to believe (and affirm) that they are powerless and God is their only source of salvation--literally and figuratively.


Your use of the term "trained" and "salvation" honestly doesn't reflect my experience in AA. Those who successfully incorporate some of the 12 steps into their life, and eventually have what they (and only they themselves) can call a spiritual awakening, are certainly not browbeaten into anything. Indeed, the best sponsors I know are the ones who know for a fact that they can't make anyone do anything - a big part of my sobriety, for example, is not trying to control other people. And the term "salvation" imo doesn't at all fit what I've seen in AA. People come to AA to save their asses, not their souls. A lot of them consider religion anathema. I was at a meeting this past Friday with an atheist with 15 years sober.

Quote:
How can this not set these recovering alcoholics up for a massive fall. They put all their eggs in the God basket, after being forced to take them out of the alcohol basket.


Maybe we can have common ground here if you and I are both willing to admit that we have had severely different experiences with AA. There are some people who are desperate and grasping for answers - yes. Every Sunday at an 11:00 speaker meeting, I see young women from the treatment facilities who seem to be at the end of their ropes, clinging to hope. But I also see people all the time who are no more desperate and clingy than the next person. You wouldn't be able to identify them as alcoholics, unless they told you themselves.
Quote:
Consciously, that's making a human being incredibly vulnerable to the emotions that swirl around religion--but I think the real danger is what that can do to a person subconsciously.


Again - I can agree that organized, pushed-down-the-throat religions can and have done a lot of harm. But there is no such thing as an AA "religion" I can accept that you have seen aspects of certain alcoholics' experience that inform your position. But I have to say that ain't all there is.

Quote:
I don't know what it's like to be an alcoholic, but I know what it's like to live with one.


Did you ever go to Al-anon?
Quote:
I strongly believe there is a powerful reason for each person's alcoholism. Whatever that reason is, it is the strongest thing in the alcoholic's life. Being drunk is the only thing that can give the alcoholic relief. When the drunkeness threatens to destroy their life, they have to let go of one life raft (alcohol), and grab on to another one to make it. That in itself shows the frightening dynamic going on with alcoholics, and how desperately they are forced to cling to God.


Alcoholics, at their worst, can be a sorry bunch. Desperate, hopeless, untrustworthy, and serving no purpose other than feeding their obsession. But recovering (or recovered - there are small differences about the terms one uses) alcoholics can be some of the most alive, joyful, grateful to be alive people there are. And they are free people.
Quote:
That kind of "religion" is almost as dangerous as the ill it seeks to heal.

Again, if that is your experience with AA - I'll respect that - it simply is not mine.

Quote:
Ipsofacto, submerging oneself into the AA religion likely opens people up to belief in all manner of things to support their life raft. They NEED God to be true. They can't survive without it.


It's just such a hopeless, trapped, ugly depiction of the lots of alcoholics. I'm sure it's true for some - as there are non-alcoholics who are just as enslaved and miserable. That's simply not the eway it is for a lot of people.

Quote:
I'm not sure that's intelligible. Hope someone understood.

I understood, and I hope you don't take it wrong that I chose to answer. I answered your post because I am the only one posting on this thread who mentioned alcoholics or AA, so I thought I was entitled to take a shot at it. I answered because I started the thread, and would like to see it thrive. I answered even though I have apologized to you publicly and privately for insulting you personally and bringing up your personal health issues, and you have chosen to ignore me.

We may never get along Lash, but I am genuinely sorry for "going there" like I did. I won't approach you again except in context of our answers to these threads.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jun, 2006 05:54 am
bump
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jun, 2006 09:29 am
Ok, I'll admit to something resembling a spiritual awakening.
I was born a Catholic; but by the time I was a teenager, I began to question the rationality of such things as the trinity doctrine and the idea that a loving God might punish his creatures eternally in hell. Finally, I was so put off by the hypocrisy: inquisition, crusades, turning a blind eye to the holocaust, etc. I left the church. A long examination of other churches revealed a similar devotion to irrational beliefs and political expediency; so I assumed there must be no God. This was a very convenient realization as it gave me moral license. By the time I reached my twenties, I considered myself free.

Then someone pointed out to me what the bible actually teaches. It seems the priests of the world are guilty of many skip-a-loops.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jun, 2006 09:48 am
Lash wrote:
I've been considering this issue and similar ones over the past year....

People have a lot more power than they realize. For instance, in the Registrar's Office, I notice the same people have problems that require intervention. They show up in some kind of trouble routinely. Several of them have said it's just their luck. Bad things are always happening to them. When I was depressed, I considered myself unlucky. We construct sympathetic and friendly systems to agree with our reality.

The reason the same students don't get the classes they want is because they don't pay attention to their responsibilities--they don't check their e-mails, they aren't engaged in the necessary trivia that makes up their life. They **** up, and the consequences follow. It's easier to blame bad luck than to be responsible for your own failings.

I wasn't unlucky, I was careless in my choices. When I came to junctures in my life, where I knew the smart thing to do--I refused. I went with my heart. Bad choices. Not luck.

There's a lot going on in our subconscious that "makes our luck."

People in AA are trained to grab on to God, because they are conditioned to believe (and affirm) that they are powerless and God is their only source of salvation--literally and figuratively. How can this not set these recovering alcoholics up for a massive fall. They put all their eggs in the God basket, after being forced to take them out of the alcohol basket. Consciously, that's making a human being incredibly vulnerable to the emotions that swirl around religion--but I think the real danger is what that can do to a person subconsciously.

I don't know what it's like to be an alcoholic, but I know what it's like to live with one. I strongly believe there is a powerful reason for each person's alcoholism. Whatever that reason is, it is the strongest thing in the alcoholic's life. Being drunk is the only thing that can give the alcoholic relief. When the drunkeness threatens to destroy their life, they have to let go of one life raft (alcohol), and grab on to another one to make it. That in itself shows the frightening dynamic going on with alcoholics, and how desperately they are forced to cling to God.

That kind of "religion" is almost as dangerous as the ill it seeks to heal.

Ipsofacto, submerging oneself into the AA religion likely opens people up to belief in all manner of things to support their life raft. They NEED God to be true. They can't survive without it.

I'm not sure that's intelligible. Hope someone understood.


I have not posted in this thread, because i have never had a "spiritual awakening." Even my rejection of organized religion proceeded from a series of events which i can recall both "visually" and "emotionally." I don't ascribe any "awakening" because i assert that i was not asleep during the process.

This post is one of the most cogent analyses of human character that i have ever seen posted at this site. Especially, i appreciate the analysis of people's notions of luck--and the subsequent and comcommitant analysis of the so-called "twelve step" method with its imperative to acknowledge a higher power. Whether or not i were ever an alcoholic i would leave to others to determine. I know that i certainly had a problem with binge drinking, and that i seriously f*cked-up in life as a result. I only succeeded in quitting alcohol because i was finally able to step outside my experience and look at it in a more objective (if not an entirely objective) manner.

I had been moved to lose weight several years before i quit taking strong drink. I acheived truly remakable results in a short period of time by completely altering my eating habits--at that time i routinely got so much exercise that it wasn't necessary to increase that. One of my friends pointed out during the process that even though i had adopted a leaner, more sensible diet, i was still soaking up thousands of calories in beer each week, on the day or two when i drank. That made sense, and so i stopped drinking for about five months. To my surprise, i found out that many of my "friends" were not interested in my company if i were not drinking. I also found that quite a few of my previous acquaintance were actively hostile toward me because i was not drinking. But the focus of my behavior at the time was to lose weight, and the object lessons had less of an impression on me than they might have if drinking had been the focus of my efforts.

Within a few years, i went to Florida to stay with a friend while he got chemo-therapy--he needed help with his landscaping business during that time, and wanted someone he knew, upon whom he could rely on a daily basis. In that part of Florida, at least, there was a heavy culture of drinking, and it was not just young men and women, it stretched right across the social spectrum to the retirees. Someone would be described as DNIW--and when i inquired, i was told that meant "drunk, not interested in working." Part of my value to my friend was that the term did not apply to me--i was used to getting up before the sun to go to work.

When i left Florida and went about my own life again, i ended up in Ohio for reasons which are not germane and no one else's business. There, i resolved to rid my life of alcohol. I had once heard a woman (radio or television, i don't recall) saying that she had given up cigarettes by spending time in places where she did not smoke, such as the the bathtub (she mentioned other places, but for the humor, that stuck in my mind). Because i had been raised in a house in which alcohol was not kept, i had never been in the habit of drinking at home, or keeping alcohol there. The most effective, and often the only method i had to avoid drinking was just to stay home. I read a lot, rented movies, took long walks, but mostly, i was alone. I again noticed that many of my acquaintance were actually only "drinking buddies," and was quickly able to distinguish people who were actually my friends by their reaction to the change in me.

The upshot of it all was that i eventually came to have no further interest in alcohol, and more importantly, in the cultural milieu in which is prominent. That meant, though, that i was a good deal more lonely than i had ever been in my life. This is something i have never actually been able to rectify--i guess that it was left to so late in life that i have not learned to create an acquaintance by other means. To that extent, the internet has become a "god-send." Many of my interests were those of much younger people, and they are usually not that comfortable in the company of someone the same age as their parents. The online world contains many people my age, and the diversity is such that i can connect to people who are both my age and who share my interests.

Nevertheless, my life has far fewer people in it than it once did. I am glad, though, that it did not involve any "spiritual awakening," that i was never obliged to appeal to a putative "higher power" to take control of my life. I am glad, to borrow Lash's metaphor, that i learned to swim, however badly, rather than looking for a different life raft to cling to.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jun, 2006 01:48 pm
Using what we've said may help clarify my responses.
snood wrote:
Lash:
Quote:
I've been considering this issue and similar ones over the past year....

People have a lot more power than they realize. For instance, in the Registrar's Office, I notice the same people have problems that require intervention. They show up in some kind of trouble routinely. Several of them have said it's just their luck. Bad things are always happening to them. When I was depressed, I considered myself unlucky. We construct sympathetic and friendly systems to agree with our reality.

The reason the same students don't get the classes they want is because they don't pay attention to their responsibilities--they don't check their e-mails, they aren't engaged in the necessary trivia that makes up their life. They **** up, and the consequences follow. It's easier to blame bad luck than to be responsible for your own failings.

I wasn't unlucky, I was careless in my choices. When I came to junctures in my life, where I knew the smart thing to do--I refused. I went with my heart. Bad choices. Not luck.


I can agree with all this - it can be capsulized by saying "Take responsibility for the consequences of your own actions." The only thing I think I disagree with is the implication that somehow since AA's say they rely on a higher power, that they wimp out of that responsibility.
Knowing the hell of alcoholism from my standpoint, I wouldn't characterize it as "wimping out." Reliance on the higher power, however, IMO, is trading one compulsion for another. It's very hard to make the argument that it's not. My point is not to insult alcoholics or those that use AA. Just an analysis.

That is not my experience with AA.

I feel it is the experience of most people who rely on AA. I'm not making an assumption about any particular individual. I'm commenting on the way AA is organized and the content of the meetings. I did attend with my husband many times.

I know some holy-roller AAs, and I know some AAs who don't book-thump at all. They are a diverse people - maybe the most diverse group I've ever been associated with. But among those with longterm sobriety that I know, there's not a one who sits on their hands and waits for life to be handed to them.

My inclusion of the "personal responsibility" portion was more about creating our belief systems to help us explain or withstand our realities. I can imagine an AA member innocently (and incorrectly) crediting God with events in their life due to the content of AA, and the strong push to admit powerlessness, and rely completely on God--or the higher power. My comments weren't meant as a negative to AA members at all. As I said elsewhere, almost any alternative is preferable to alcoholism. But, I do see AA as a trade of one problem for another. Not to be taken as an indictment against people.


Quote:
There's a lot going on in our subconscious that "makes our luck."

People in AA are trained to grab on to God, because they are conditioned to believe (and affirm) that they are powerless and God is their only source of salvation--literally and figuratively.


Your use of the term "trained" and "salvation" honestly doesn't reflect my experience in AA.
How can one divest themselves of the 12 steps and the Higher Power, and the ritualism. I think trained and salvation are accurate.

Those who successfully incorporate some of the 12 steps into their life, and eventually have what they (and only they themselves) can call a spiritual awakening, are certainly not browbeaten into anything.

I may not choose browbeaten, but I think it's actually pretty close. There is peer pressure, and ritual, and printed material, focusing on your need for that Higher Power. I do think there is heavy conditioning.

Indeed, the best sponsors I know are the ones who know for a fact that they can't make anyone do anything - a big part of my sobriety, for example, is not trying to control other people. And the term "salvation" imo doesn't at all fit what I've seen in AA.
AA exists for salvation. Salvation from alcoholism, and all the hell that goes with it. The life of the alcoholic is on the line, and only a Higher Power has the power to get you (the recovering alcoholic) through the day. The salvation from alcoholism shades and morphs into salvation from hell.

People come to AA to save their asses, not their souls. A lot of them consider religion anathema. I was at a meeting this past Friday with an atheist with 15 years sober.
What is his Higher Power?
Quote:
How can this not set these recovering alcoholics up for a massive fall. They put all their eggs in the God basket, after being forced to take them out of the alcohol basket.


Maybe we can have common ground here if you and I are both willing to admit that we have had severely different experiences with AA.
But, AA has the same guiding content, same focus, and the same 12 steps. I'm not trying to characterize you, but the format of AA..


There are some people who are desperate and grasping for answers - yes. Every Sunday at an 11:00 speaker meeting, I see young women from the treatment facilities who seem to be at the end of their ropes, clinging to hope. But I also see people all the time who are no more desperate and clingy than the next person. You wouldn't be able to identify them as alcoholics, unless they told you themselves.
Quote:
Consciously, that's making a human being incredibly vulnerable to the emotions that swirl around religion--but I think the real danger is what that can do to a person subconsciously.


Again - I can agree that organized, pushed-down-the-throat religions can and have done a lot of harm. But there is no such thing as an AA "religion" I can accept that you have seen aspects of certain alcoholics' experience that inform your position. But I have to say that ain't all there is.

The basis of AA is a religion of sorts. You have to do certain things, a belief system is pushed. Using "religion" in a loose context. Call it a belief system if that's preferable. It means the same thing to me.
Quote:
I don't know what it's like to be an alcoholic, but I know what it's like to live with one.


Did you ever go to Al-anon?

AA with my husband. Many different groups in different locations.
Quote:
I strongly believe there is a powerful reason for each person's alcoholism. Whatever that reason is, it is the strongest thing in the alcoholic's life. Being drunk is the only thing that can give the alcoholic relief. When the drunkeness threatens to destroy their life, they have to let go of one life raft (alcohol), and grab on to another one to make it. That in itself shows the frightening dynamic going on with alcoholics, and how desperately they are forced to cling to God.


Alcoholics, at their worst, can be a sorry bunch. Desperate, hopeless, untrustworthy, and serving no purpose other than feeding their obsession. But recovering (or recovered - there are small differences about the terms one uses) alcoholics can be some of the most alive, joyful, grateful to be alive people there are. And they are free people.
Quote:


I don't think I said, nor do I feel, anything negative against alcoholics as a group.
That kind of "religion" is almost as dangerous as the ill it seeks to heal.

Again, if that is your experience with AA - I'll respect that - it simply is not mine.
I'm not discussing experiences, as much as the format of AA, and the psychological implications.
Quote:
Ipsofacto, submerging oneself into the AA religion likely opens people up to belief in all manner of things to support their life raft. They NEED God to be true. They can't survive without it.


It's just such a hopeless, trapped, ugly depiction of the lots of alcoholics. I'm sure it's true for some - as there are non-alcoholics who are just as enslaved and miserable. That's simply not the eway it is for a lot of people.
It's not meant to depict anyone as ugly, trapped or hopeless. The format of AA has helped many people. I do think, however, it is trading one set of problems for another. I also think it's the better trade. This says it all: "I am glad [...] that i learned to swim, however badly, rather than looking for a different life raft to cling to." from Set's previous post.
...you have chosen to ignore me.

My mother told me of something she has been doing on a routine basis that shocks me. It's not horrible, but it is out of character for her. She asked me if she should apologize. I said no, just don't do it again. She likes the emotional pay-off of the apology, but it doesn't mean anything to her. She likes to feel good about apologizing, but she (and I) know she's going to repeat the behavior. We know it because she's done it before many times. She gets to do what she wants, and also get the good feeling of apologizing for it every once in a while. She gets the best of both worlds.

After a while, it's time to stop apologizing and just don't do it anymore.

That sounds bitchy, and that's why I haven't responded. I was waiting to feel honest about a better response. But, this is my honest response. No insult intended.


I won't approach you again except in context of our answers to these threads.

I think this is the best idea for the foreseeable future.


I was amazed at he depth of Set's contribution to this discussion. Like to thank him. Also for kind remarks.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jun, 2006 02:11 pm
Lash has a heart and a mind, unusal for a chistian.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jun, 2006 02:29 pm
Grasshopper has pleased you?












Smile
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jun, 2006 03:06 pm
dyslexia wrote:
Lash has a heart and a mind, unusal for a chistian.

Not really; not all Christians are of the ignorant, luddite Evangelical/Fundamentalist/Biblethumper persuasion. Despite the visibility of the backwards examples, they're really nothing more than a very vocal, fairly effective minority. Of course, that does not in any way lessen the threat they and their proselytizing ilk pose.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

700 Inconsistencies in the Bible - Discussion by onevoice
Why do we deliberately fool ourselves? - Discussion by coincidence
Spirituality - Question by Miller
Oneness vs. Trinity - Discussion by Arella Mae
give you chills - Discussion by Bartikus
Evidence for Evolution! - Discussion by Bartikus
Evidence of God! - Discussion by Bartikus
One World Order?! - Discussion by Bartikus
God loves us all....!? - Discussion by Bartikus
The Preambles to Our States - Discussion by Charli
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 05/04/2024 at 01:59:42