Did you have a Spiritual Awakening?

I read somewhere that the 'white light' that many cite as evidence of their NDE can be easily explained by chemical process...rogue nerve endings firing and so forth..
Nothing magical required.

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Near death experiences
I read all the negative replies to my post on near death experiences. Don't want to argue the point, it has already been settled by research. We will live after the death of our bodies. There are at least eight universities I know of researching NDEs now. All of them are finding that near death experiences can't be explained by medical means. Some have already come down on the side of life after death. suggest those that are certain there is nothing to them to start reading the research. Better yet, start reading near death experiences, it only takes a few to understand what everyone is talking about.

http://www.clickpress.com/releases/Detailed/9278005cp.shtml

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Re: Near death experiences

Lekatt wrote:

I read all the negative replies to my post on near death experiences. Don't want to argue the point, it has already been settled by research. We will live after the death of our bodies. There are at least eight universities I know of researching NDEs now. All of them are finding that near death experiences can't be explained by medical means. Some have already come down on the side of life after death. suggest those that are certain there is nothing to them to start reading the research. Better yet, start reading near death experiences, it only takes a few to understand what everyone is talking about.

http://www.clickpress.com/releases/Detailed/9278005cp.shtml

What an interesting fantasy life you have.
http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-05/near-death-experience.html
http://www.csicop.org/sb/9506/light.html
http://www.csicop.org/sb/2005-06/i-files.html

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There is a fine recent discussion on NDE here .

The desire for immortality far surpasses our observation of evidence to the contrary.

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I have read all the links shown above before. There is not a single one of them describing a real full-blown near death experience. The sceptics only choose a few fragments of the real experience and try to explain them from a medical standpoint. The whole real NDE can not be explained from a medical standpoint. That is why so many researchers are interested in the phenomenon. Most people, expecially sceptics, don't really know what a real near death experience contains. That is why I suggest reading some of them written by the author.

Edit [Moderator]: Links removed

This is a beginning, read the NDE accounts as told by the experieners for real knowledge of what NDE consists.

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Negative remarks were not supposed to be a part of this thread. So I won't do any more explaining. The material is there for those who really want to know.

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Lekatt wrote:

I have read all the links shown above before. There is not a single one of them describing a real full-blown near death experience. The sceptics only choose a few fragments of the real experience and try to explain them from a medical standpoint. The whole real NDE can not be explained from a medical standpoint.

It cannot be explained at all.

There is no way of knowing if the experiences are true insights into some sort of afterlife...or merely dreams of sorts.

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That is why so many researchers are interested in the phenomenon. Most people, expecially sceptics, don't really know what a real near death experience contains. That is why I suggest reading some of them written by the author.

You can read from now until the cows come home...you are not going to change the fact that there is absolutely no way to determine if the experiences are true insights into an afterlife...or merely a delusion.

And if any of the experimenters or subjects actually suggest they do know...the safest bet is to assume he/she is mistaken or a fraud.

It simply is something not ameanable to scientific determination.

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LeKatt; Are you familiar with Eckankar?

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One of the big attractions for me about children is their ability to absolutely wonder... I can experience the original thrill of my first encounter with an experience again by sharing theirs with them.

I also have more respect for adults who tend to have more questions than answers. This is simply a personal preference, but having to do with their ability to wonder.

There is no real argument to the position "this or that spiritual experience cannot be proved". I just don't see the efficacy of coming to a discussion forum - more succinctly, a discussion topic opened with an invitation to those who have had experiences they themselves deem as spiritual to share them - over and over to again make the case "you people can't prove any of this". Maybe once, to make the (and it is, undeniably) unassailable point that these experiences cannot be proved by scientific method. But to hammer on that is to appear to say "so what is the point in discussing them?"

That's my problem with those who keep saying "this is unknowable, one way or another", and with those who keep suggesting that spiritual experience is nonsense. The whole purpose of this is to discuss the topic, and IMO the kind of posts I've described discourage discussion.

Is it possible to talk about these things without someone constantly showing up to assert "you can't prove it" or to suggest that we're somehow defective to believe these experiences hold any significance deeper than a brain fart?

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neologist wrote:

LeKatt; Are you familiar with Eckankar?

I have heard of Eckankar, but really know very little about it. What I read about it didn't appeal to me due to the focus on the leader. Near death experiences focus on Love. for, to, and about everyone.

Love

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[quote="snoodIs it possible to talk about these things without someone constantly showing up to assert "you can't prove it" or to suggest that we're somehow defective to believe these experiences hold any significance deeper than a brain fart?[/quote]

Thanks for your post. Spiritual experiences are personal experiences. They are intended for the person receiving them. Neither science nor religion can fit them into their doctrines. They are, as you say, wonderments.

Love
Lekatt

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I don't have an issue with wonder. And I think most of the "negative" posters here (or at least, me) have questioned, not the experience, but the rigid certainty of the interpretation.

To relates the experience is one thing. To claim that you know what it means, and that your interpretatin has been established as unassailable fact when this is not even remotely true, is another. This move well beyond childlike wonder.

But I am content to leave this thread to the true believers. Unless the responders are given the same license to draw conclusions that the original poster takes (pro or con), there is really nothing much to discuss.

No disrespect intended.

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Greyfan wrote:

I too find the evidence provided by near death experiences underwhelming. It is hardly surprising that our minds, which are capable of deceiving us under normal circumstances, might pull out all the stops when the situation is dire. I suspect, however, that if I ever actually have a near death experience, it might be more difficult to let go of the comfort it would provide than the idea it was all in my head.

Oddly enough, many people come out of the experience as stronger Christians, even though the form the experience often takes -welcomes from friends and relatives who have already "crossed over"- directly contradicts the Biblical account of the afterlife. Uncle Marty is supposed to lie a-mouldering in the grave, until the trumpet sounds for all of us.

Is that your interpretation of how it is supposed to be?

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Greyfan wrote:

I don't have an issue with wonder. And I think most of the "negative" posters here (or at least, me) have questioned, not the experience, but the rigid certainty of the interpretation.

Absolutely. And I have questioned the rigidity of both sides of the issue.

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To relates the experience is one thing. To claim that you know what it means, and that your interpretatin has been established as unassailable fact when this is not even remotely true, is another. This move well beyond childlike wonder.

Amen.

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But I am content to leave this thread to the true believers.

No way!

And I honestly think if Snood thinks thing through, he will see that restricting this kind of thread only to folks who aver that experiences such as have been related can only be attributed in one particlular way...

...does the topic a disservice.

The discussion should go on.

Chances are, the issue is not resolvable.

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Greyfan wrote:

I don't have an issue with wonder. And I think most of the "negative" posters here (or at least, me) have questioned, not the experience, but the rigid certainty of the interpretation.

There are degrees - some question the rigidity, some think the whole thing is hooey. All are entitled to their opinions. I was simply questioning the motives of some of the questioners... I'm sort of asking, "hey guys, ain't it all right if we just share these stories with each other?"

To relates the experience is one thing. To claim that you know what it means, and that your interpretatin has been established as unassailable fact when this is not even remotely true, is another. This move well beyond childlike wonder.

I think I've seen a couple people try that "unassailable fact" thing here, but most haven't. And I don't claim any of us is still capable of childlike wonder - my position could be stated more accurately by saying I don't know how any of us maintain any wonder at all.

But I am content to leave this thread to the true believers. Unless the responders are given the same license to draw conclusions that the original poster takes (pro or con), there is really nothing much to discuss.

What conclusions did the original post draw? I asked for experiences that people considered (themselves) to be spiritual.

No disrespect intended.

And none intended in this reply.

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Well, Snood, you tried. I would like to see the thread continue. There are millions of people who have spiritual experiences every day. It is a valid subject. Toleration of other's beliefs is fundamental to our Constitution.

I will post an interesting experience a friend of mine had to see if this thread can continue.

Edit [Moderator]: Link removed

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I have far from given up hope in this thread, Lekatt. I am heartened by those who wish to see it continue. Your friend's experience is very interesting to me. I just had a discussion yesterday with my sister, who is a professing Christian, about my experiences that I consider spiritual. It was interesting to me that she didn't tell me about any similar experiences, but that her belief stemmed more from an understanding that came from study.

Frank, there is no "issue" here to be "resolved", as I see it. But we agree that the discussion should go on.

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Religion and Spirituality
I separate those who believe only through study as religious, and those who have experienced as spiritual. I believe if a religious person holds the path of love long enough it will lead to an experience. I do not see Jesus in the same light as Christians do, but I have a deep respect for His teachings. He said: "Blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe."

In my experience it was certain that unconditional love is the goal. It is a hard path, and takes great strength and resolve to hold it. However the rewards are worth it. Peace, contentment, joy, knowledge, wisdom, and love are some of the benefits.

Thanks for continuing the thread.

Love

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Lekatt wrote:

I will post an interesting experience a friend of mine had to see if this thread can continue.
http://www.aleroy.com/Suic01.htm

That is a distasteful story. Your 'friend' should be ashamed to be spreading such BS.

There are people with serious mental problems in this world, and 'spiritual awakenings' seem to provide an easy excuse to indulge sickness sometimes.

Each is entitle to their beliefs and free speech. I can't read a story like that and not voice my disguist. It's sickening, and it makes me question the mind anyone who would help to spread the 'cause' of that shiot.

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snood wrote:

Frank, there is no "issue" here to be "resolved", as I see it.

I should have been more specific, Snood. I meant the question of whether or not "spiritual events" are actually "spiritual events" doesn't appear to be resolveable.

I truly do not know if such a thing as "spiritual events" actually exist...but I see absolutely not reason to suppose they don't...or cannot....exist.

I have trouble understanding why some people are so certain they do not exist (or for that matter, that they certainly DO exist)...but we each have to travel the road we select for ourselves.

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But we agree that the discussion should go on.

It is too interesting to be stopped...and I doubt it will be for a very long time.

I think there are still many twists and turns yet to be taken in this journey.

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Did you have a Spiritual Awakening?

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