Did you have a Spiritual Awakening?

hephzibah

That quote was actually JLN's, but in answer to your query on "evidence" there is certainly evidence against the view that observers are separate from what they observe. This is the very basis of quantum theory. Scientific paradigms which promote "egolessness" inlude the Santiago theory of cognition.

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don't know if it's evidence, but it does give some kind of impression of how wide spread these ideas are.

http://www.qi-whiz.com/category/export/html/151

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I dont think I had a spiritual awakening, more a revelation of the reverse. That is there is no love no compassion no higher sentiment, just behaviour, conditioned by genetics. Sounds bleak I know but I was going through a bad patch. However, feeling better, I still think there is truth in it.

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Cyracuz,

That is a good link for the converted but a bad one for the skeptical. I say this because its range which equivocates the "scientific" with the"mystical" is too great a step to "swallow" for those conditioned by traditional views.

Better perhaps for the uninitiated to dwell a little on a well established turning point for science like "the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle" which has clear implications for unity of observer and observed. From here come thoughts and questions about the nature of "knowledge" and how "external reality" is a "construct". It is interesting that even Heisenberg himself remained a member of his church all his life and could not use his own escape route to tunnel out of his conditioning.Similarly Einstein opened doors through which he was unwilling to pass.

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That is true. I posted it mostly because I thought it was fun.

But I can see how it may be too much to swallow to someone unaquainted with these ideas.

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Cyracuz, it's like some websites given us by Fresco, great to wander through whenever one has some extra time.

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I wonder..

Would it be possible to create a vocabulary based on this non-duality. A way to speak and think that does not create all these illutions as "vessels" for the truth.

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I believe the Indian logician, Nagarjuna, was able to speak non-dualistically (in the form of zen-like paradoxes). But my sense of non-dualistic experience has more to do with silent (unmediated) perception, i.e., a passive non/extra-cognitive connection with what is happening. But I would not be shocked to learn that modern physics--and even mathematical theory--achieves intellectual transcendence of dualism. As far as I can tell, dualism rests on the structure of grammar, hence the possible viability of any non-linguistic mode of knowing.

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I believe that all living things are in a constant spiritual state, that is they live in eternity. As the intellect develops to a stronger level, as in humans, because it now lives in a field of time it is able to appreciate this spititual state by experiencing transcendence. However, the intellect is a double-edged sword, and it raises all sorts of impediments to this spiritualality. The intellect imagines a self or ego and becomes obsessed with the future of this self. Many institutions are set up to reinforce the illusion of the self and assure us that we should be concerned with the future after our death becasue that is where eternity lies. This, of course, totally erradicates any sense of spirituality.

Observe any animal; they are totally unconcerned with the future and are unable to even think of one. They are thus totally spiritual and live in eternity. Eternity has nothing whatsoever to do with time; it is beyond the field of time. If a man of the cloth, so to speak, says otherwise run the other way.

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coluber2001 wrote:

Observe any animal; they are totally unconcerned with the future and are unable to even think of one.

This is entirely false. I have seen again and again, literally hundreds of times, examples of animals anticipating events. If i put bread crumbs out for the birds in winter, not only will they anticipate my doing so, they will assemble as though they had access to a clock. All through last winter, i put bread crumbs out for the birds between 7:30 and 8:00 a.m. On any day upon which i had forgotten to do so, i would step outside to find the birds waiting to be fed--they had anticipated an event in the future.

One of the most pointed examples of which i can think occured with the little dog you can see in my avatra photo. She had learned a game from the father of her "owner" which we call "is that my biscuit." Each morning, when the dogs are let outside to take care of their defecation and micturation, they are given a charcoal biscuit when they come back in. Cleo likes to play "is that my biscuit," in which someone pretends that they will take it away from her, and she growls as though she will fight to keep it. This continues until she has bitten it often enough that it crumbles, at which point, she eats the remainder.

One morning, i let the dogs out, and when they returned, i gave them their charcoal biscuits. I then stood in the back yard and smoked a cigarette. It was fifteen minutes or more before i came back in the house. Cleo was lying on the living room floor, with the charcoal biscuit between her paws, otherwise untouched, waiting to play "is that my biscuit." I know human beings who haven't that capacity to defer gratification in anticipation of a greater future gratification.

Therefore, this . . .

Quote:

They are thus totally spiritual and live in eternity. Eternity has nothing whatsoever to do with time; it is beyond the field of time. If a man of the cloth, so to speak, says otherwise run the other way.

--is just so much "spiritualistic" mumbo-jumbo.

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Set, I see your point, but it still may be that animals who seem to be anticipating "future" events are merely making associations between conditions and events (like Palov's bell and food) in a conceptually timeless way.
Non-human animals, as far as we know, do not make plans or anticipate events "as future hypothetical probabilities."
As far as I know, that is.

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JLNobody wrote:

Set, I see your point, but it still may be that animals who seem to be anticipating "future" events are merely making associations between conditions and events (like Palov's bell) in a conceptually timeless way.
Non-human animals, as far as we know, do not make plans or anticipate events "as future hypothetical probabilities."
As far as I know, that is.

Whoa...do I hear what I hear...

...or am I just dreaming? Twisted Evil

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Animals do not live in a field of time as we do. They are unable to conceive of a self and are unaware of the future of that self. Were they aware of time they would immediately go insane or at least neurotic because of the danger they are constantly in. When your dog or cat comes in the house it often greets you, but when it leaves it doesn't say goodbye becasue it can't conceive of a future.

As far as the mumbo-jumbo of the meaning of eternity, this is pretty basic stuff, kindergarten stuff actually. Men of the cloth, priests, clergymen, etc, are functionaries of the church; they don't neccessaily have any spiritual understanding at all. And that goes all the way up to the pope. They are true believers and their security depends on following the dictates and dogmas of their respective religions.

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JLNobody wrote:

Set, I see your point, but it still may be that animals who seem to be anticipating "future" events are merely making associations between conditions and events (like Palov's bell and food) in a conceptually timeless way.
Non-human animals, as far as we know, do not make plans or anticipate events "as future hypothetical probabilities."
As far as I know, that is.

If animals do not have a conception of time, why do the little birdies assemble in the trees and bushes in the back yard beginning at 7:30 a.m., to await the bread crumbs, but do not so assemble at any other time of the day?

If the little dog was not capable of anticipating my return from the back yard to play "is that my biscuit," why did she wait for fifteen minutes or more without eating the biscuit?

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coluber2001 wrote:

Animals do not live in a field of time as we do. They are unable to conceive of a self and are unaware of the future of that self. Were they aware of time they would immediately go insane or at least neurotic because of the danger they are constantly in. When your dog or cat comes in the house it often greets you, but when it leaves it doesn't say goodbye becasue it can't conceive of a future.

As far as the mumbo-jumbo of the meaning of eternity, this is pretty basic stuff, kindergarten stuff actually. Men of the cloth, priests, clergymen, etc, are functionaries of the church; they don't neccessaily have any spiritual understanding at all. And that goes all the way up to the pope. They are true believers and their security depends on following the dictates and dogmas of their respective religions.

That is some of the most garbled mish-mash i've ever read. If you don't agree with me, just say so. It is rather hilarious, though, to see you re-assert your assertions as though no cogent objection had been raised against them.

As for "men of the cloth," although one might cynically assert that some, even many, even most of them are themselves cynical, and don't believe the horsie poop they peddle, it it too much of a stretch to assert that none of them do, or that they are any less qualified to address the topic of "spirituality" than is anyone else.

You would be more honest just to articulate your objections to hierarchical priesthoods than to attempt such a lame set of unfounded contentions.

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No, you're right Set. I just saw a little bird outside looking at its watch.

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I just had a dog come up to me and tell me it was time for Judge Judy.

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Was it a watchdog, snood? Laughing

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Uh oh........ Unusual Post Warning....... I'm gonna agree with Setanta (a little bit). Close your eyes if you can't handle it. Laughing

Of course animals anticipate the future and commonly prepare for it. Have you never seen ants gather food for winter?

Do they 'think' of the future in the same terms humans do? Well probably not.

But to say they do not concern themselves with the future in any way and have no conception of time is not the case.

It is not uncommon for a dog to anticipate his master's arrival at home each day, having accustomed himself to the timing of his arrival by associating it with various events/conditions, etc.

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Moreover, I know some humans who seem to have little concept of preparing for the future, but 'spiritual' is not what I'd term them.

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My cat just told me its high time for a change in heart...

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JLN wrote:

Quote:

but it still may be that animals who seem to be anticipating "future" events are merely making associations between conditions and events (like Palov's bell and food) in a conceptually timeless way.

Sounds pretty much the same as any human. What else is there for us to do?

It is this very function, among others, that create the foundations upon wich the ego establishes itself. In so doing it simultaneously confirms it's own existence as the master of these assosiations, when it may be that it is just the product of it.

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Did you have a Spiritual Awakening?

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