N.Y. Times', "Black Eye"

Booman, you may agree with this or not, but I do not think that racial origin must entitle anyone to priority treatment, or on the contrary, to discrimination. I am against affirmative action, since I believe that Black people are not less apt for making good careers than the White ones. The only treatment they should get is an equal treatment with people of the other races.
In Israel there are different programs for new immigrants, and I did not claim my rights in any of them (when I was eligible to), just for one reason: I do not consider myself being inferior to the native Israelis, and I believe that I can compee with them on grounds of equality treatment.

Steisd,
...Like I said, most of us are grateful for affirmative, but I for one have never demanded it. I never heard, Martin, or Malcolm ask for affirmative action, We just demanded a fair shake. I may be wrong, but I believe affirmative action was probably the brainchild of fair minded Whites, who thought perhaps the Black man was did so wrong, for so long, maybe it would be decent to give them a extra boost to try and balance things, or at least give a gesture of apology. If you think this is too soft a position I understand, and if anyone thinks a a time restriction should be put on this , I understand that.

BTW Streissed,
...Are you aware that obtaining jobs, or college acceptance often depend less on qualification, than who you know?

Booman,
I appreciated your comments. To equate the discussion with a more general situation, parents who provide children with endless opportunities to do a task the child can accomplish, are involved in a disservice to their own child. Suffering and dealing with consequences are a natural part of life. I have to wonder who will help this young man learn from this experience. The same holds true for the New York Times; who will help them to learn from this experience. Being in Education, I have found that this is when real learning takes place, when change can really happen.

Wow, great anology, Mapleleaf,
...I am constantly at odds with my Wife, and daughter, on how hard I work the grandkids, when I don't give them nearly the chores that I had. and when it comes to homework I am the last resort, because I (gasp! ) make them think, and try to help them to figure things out, instead of supplying them with the answers.

Hey, Boo. Finally found you. Strange that you should post this topic, because I just found a book with an excerpt from Richard Wright's Black Boy. No link here, cause I want this to be my thoughts.

It would seem, as I recall, that Wright left America and went to Paris, where he subsequently died. His wife noted that his creative ability seemed to have atrophied. Why? Perhaps it takes turmoil to really produce genius. As to Affirmative Action, I see both positive and negative sides. For those who are slothful, it's negative. For those who are ready to take the challenge, but need a leg up, it's the best thing that has happened since indoor plumbing. We must all stand on our own merit in the big picture, and I think that of all the places where poverty, color, religion, whatever, never made a difference, it was the music business. The only requirement there was to be able to wail.

This is familiar to me. I have lost job not long ago, and it took me much time to find a new one in absense of useful acquaintances. And I had to agree for a worse paid one. But what has all this to do with race? I am White, but I faced the same problems the equally qualified Ethiopian (we have no other Blacks with citizenship/working permission in Israel except them) would face. And if the Ethiopian competitor of mine was acquainted with the managers of the company I was hired by, then he would be hired instead of me. I have already faced such a situation in one of my previous workplaces: someone was promoted instead of me just for his belonging to the same reserve service outfit one of the bosses belonged to (therefore, they met many times inofficially while being soldiers). He had less experience and less knowledge of the purchasing procedues than I did, but he was promoted. And he was a Druze (an affiliate of non-Muslim Arab denomination). So, what? Must I conclude that the Jews in Israel are being discriminated on ethnic/religious grounds?

Booman:



The day that prejudice will end is the day that people don't have to think in terms of race, ethnicity, or religion. It was ONE REPORTER from the NYT who screwed up. It has nothing to do with you, or your family, and there is no reason for you to be offended or embarrassed.

IMO, thinking in terms of being a credit, or an embarrassment to one's group just perpetuates the prejudice, and the stereotype. On the day that we can all stand or fall on one's own, that's when prejudice will really end!

Booman:

Let me see ... If you're a person of color, you always get the best job.

Let me see ... If you're a person of color, you always get the best education, in the best schools, with the best of grants.

Let me see ... If you're a person of color, you always get the best neighborhoods with the most elegant houses.

And it's all done on the backs of the poor white working man!


Does that clear it up? I want to be sure I have all the facts right before I introduce a few statistics here.


Anon

Letty,
...Yes, talent will out.

Streisd,
...I wasn't talking the complete situation. It's about an edge. It's about percentages. Forty years ago, there was much, much,much less chance that a person of color would be in a position to get a boost from a contact at Harvard, or in a civil service job, in Mississippi Government. But things are different now, and remember, we never demanded it, we accepted it. As you would of course be within your rights, to pridefully turn down a position given to you via Affirmative Action. Besides my post is mainly about overdoing anything.

Phoenix,
...Gosh that sounds sweet. If I were writing the script, that's the way i'd make things myself. ....Now please try to understand what I'm saying; Due to our position and history, in this society, We are bound together. You may not be aware of this, but many people have judged Blacks in general from the actions of one. So when a prominent Black acts positively, ar negitively, we feel pride or shame as a group. THIS IS THE WAY WE FEEL!

Booman- Very true. But blacks are not the only groups who have been subjected to prejudice over the years.

I know that I might be sounding like a naive Pollyanna to you. But we must start somewhere. So long as we react in "groupthink" we are giving people ammunition to put labels on us, no matter who we are.

IMO, the way to remove ourselves from the labels of prejudice is to think and react as individuals.

Phoenix,
..I deliberately capitalized the last sentence, hoping you would see where I was coming from. We have an emotional bond. It's in our culture. I know what that numbskull did won't affect me in this day and age, but there's nothing you can intellectually convey to me that will stop me from FEELING, a bit pissed at him. Just like I had lumps inn my throat, and tears in my eyes, while watching the Oscars Last year. And remember Halle Berry's speech? That might give you a hint of what I am talking about.

And Oh Yes Phoenix,
...I know Blacks aren't the only ones subject to prejudice, and racism. I get livid, when I see young Blacks exhibiting such behavior.

I respect that Streissd, and call me crazy, but I've always leaned toward letting people feel the way they want to. But hey, that's me.

I do not restrict your rights to think as you consider being proper either; I am not Osama bin-Laden that wants everyone to think and to act the same way under threat of terror attack... I just express my opinion. But why not to broaden the reasons for pride and shame? You may feel proud for all the good people and ashamed of all the evil ones, both Black, White and Asian, for one simple reason: you belong to the same biological species with them, namely Homo sapiens...

I do love a good debate. And right now I'm sitting here beaming with pride, at the intelligent and tenacious way you're jousting with me. (Sniff)

I finally read something that approximates my feelings about this whole episode. In a nutshell, why isn't Blair considered just a warped individual, period? Why has someone got to make it an issue of "this proves the Times wanted diversity at the expense of all else"? Because he was hired at the Times, and he's Black, and he f-ed up, that equates to an indictment of AA? What kind of warped crap is that? I'm still so p-ed off. I'm glad at least some journalists, like the one who wrote this editorial, can see the bogus reasoning that automatically makes this an issue about policies for hiring minorities, instead of one person who did alot of bad things.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57329-2003May14.html

Speaking of "bad things",
...I fear that term is losing it's relavence. I was cynically telling a friend of mine, this morning that Blair would probably wind up writing a book. What do I see when I open the paper this evening?....Yep, he's got a literary agent, outlook good. (sigh)
...And speaking of outlooks,....Spurs, and Nets, one step closer to a showdown. (Poor Spurs )