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Why do we bear children and rear them?

 
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jun, 2006 06:32 am
I completely disagree that choosing not to have children is disaffirmation of life. An affirmation of one's own life and the promise it holds is an equally likely interpretation. I know many people who choose not to have children and they all have very reasonable, unselfish, life valuing reasons for doing so. But what if they didn't? What if they just didn't want to have children. Isn't that good enough? Isn't that acknowledging the value of human life while realizing the level of commitment required to respect that value and at the same time recognizing that they can't make that commitment?
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RaceDriver205
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jun, 2006 08:31 am
Quote:
Because people all over the world have so many kids, it allows some of us the choice to not.

Sure, but you will be replaced with those who do.

Quote:
Clearly, there are people who don't want to have kids. They don't feel that drive. Couldn't the very lack of drive to have children be nature's instruction, too?

No. Name one animal that elects not to have kids - excepting us humans who have invented contraception.
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Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jun, 2006 08:43 am
RaceDriver205 wrote:
No. Name one animal that elects not to have kids - excepting us humans who have invented contraception.


Worker bee, worker ant etc.

We also find animals that do not have kids within packs, where only the dominant male and female breed.
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BlaiseDaley
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jun, 2006 04:44 pm
pangheping wrote:
Choosing not to bear children is not suicide,but both of them have nearly the similar consequences, they are both disaffirmation of life,both are intentional cessation of life,the difference is one immediately,another chronically in order to enjoy the little rest of life without the disturbance of kids.
Rearing children is not the whole part of any parent's life,it is only a part of life itself, although this part of life is so important that they'll never abandon in any case.
Nature allows us to have our say is intend to make us more effective,more confidential in life,never intend to make us to take nigative actions against life,such as suicide,abstain from procreation,homosexuality,etc.
Rearing one's own children is the affirmation of one's own life,it certainly deserves our sacrifice of our time and energy and it is a part of life itself.



How many children should one have to prove they've fully affirmed life? Is there some sliding scale; are there extra points for twins, triplets? Is there partial credit for having ones sperm/eggs frozen?

The decision whether to have children or not involves a great deal more than an affirmation of life; genetic pressures aside, I know for myself were I in Rawanda ten years ago the decision on having kids would have been weighted heavily whether I thought they would end up decapitated, floating down the river.

Also, and this is probably me being too sensitive, the idea of a couple of sixteen years mucking about in the back seat of a car and winding up having a kid I difficult to view as their bold statement to the world that they are affirming life beyond the extent that they don't have an abortion.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jun, 2006 07:22 pm
Now, if ya gotta farm, the more kids ya have, the less help ya gotta hire.
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BlaiseDaley
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jun, 2006 09:48 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Now, if ya gotta farm, the more kids ya have, the less help ya gotta hire.



Then there's the whole idea of bettering your chances of having someone to look after you when you're old and decrepit.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jun, 2006 12:46 am
Hmmmm...and other than high sounding rhetoric, what does "affirm life" mean anyway?
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pangheping
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jun, 2006 08:13 am
dlowan wrote:
Hmmmm...and other than high sounding rhetoric, what does "affirm life" mean anyway?


The affirmation of life is to obey what nature tells you to do:when you feel thirst(this is the way nature tells you your body needs water),then to drink,in this case to drink is the affirmation of your own life,refuse to drink is disaffirmation of your own life.when you feel hungry(this is also the way nature tells you your body needs food),don't refuse to eat is the affirmation of your own life,etc,etc.
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flushd
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jun, 2006 09:50 am
pangheping wrote:
dlowan wrote:
Hmmmm...and other than high sounding rhetoric, what does "affirm life" mean anyway?


The affirmation of life is to obey what nature tells you to do:when you feel thirst(this is the way nature tells you your body needs water),then to drink,in this case to drink is the affirmation of your own life,refuse to drink is disaffirmation of your own life.when you feel hungry(this is also the way nature tells you your body needs food),don't refuse to eat is the affirmation of your own life,etc,etc.


As much as I hate to admit this, I understand this line of thought. Humans are animals with basic needs: one of them is to have sex and procreate. Generally.

We are amazing creatures. We have logical thought (at times), and we can predict into the future. How many other animals can do that? To the degree we can? How many can understand that we live on a globe of an Earth and their own species are overpopulating? How many can delay satisfaction of thirst, sex, food for a 'higher' objective...delayed gratification, or sacrificing one gratification for another?

If I followed this 'affirmation of life' line to its conclusion, I would basically live as a pure animal. I would not use birth control. I would not weigh the pros and cons of bearing children - I'd just have sex when my body told me it wanted it, and keep popping out kids. I'd drink right when I wanted it. I'd poop on the sidewalk even (some people do it!).

There are many ways to meet a need. We may have the need to have sex and procreate: but for some, who's to say that need can not be filled in alternate ways that giving birth and raising children? Perhaps they choose to 'procreate' with a child of another sort: a life's work, a creative endeavor, a legacy.

Perhaps not everyone even feels that need at all. It's dangerous to blanket all human beings as 'the same' without acknowledging our individual differences.

And all this is on the assumption that somehow it is a good thing that human beings live.
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BlaiseDaley
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jun, 2006 10:27 am
Eeeeeyep. What she said.

I'd add, given some people can't see colors and others can't roll their tongues or trill thier r's, who can say that the drive to not have children is just another one of the quirks that makes each of us an individual?
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pangheping
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jun, 2006 12:20 am
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
RaceDriver205 wrote:
No. Name one animal that elects not to have kids - excepting us humans who have invented contraception.


Worker bee, worker ant etc.

We also find animals that do not have kids within packs, where only the dominant male and female breed.


Is worker bee,worker ant female?

The animales that do not have kids within packs are mostly male,it is not
becuace they choose not to breed.they only have no opportunity.
Can you name one animal whose females elect not to have kids?
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Ashers
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jun, 2006 07:35 am
I think the distinction between the instincts/needs for sex and bearing children respectively are really interesting. It's a new phenomenon which is having a fast growing significance in modern society. Contraception's widespread success and use on a massive scale has meant that kids are no longer more of an upshot to a healthy sex life but a conscious decision that people can now plan around, delay or decide against. It's a freedom of choice which, if it allows for more people to "hold their dominion", to take control of their lives, to really shape them to a new level of expression, you have to hope is a great thing as far as I'm concerned.
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Chai
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jun, 2006 10:15 am
pangheping wrote:
The affirmation of life is to obey what nature tells you to do.


Honestly, nature has never told me to have children, in any way, shape or form. Not even hinted at it or or suggested.

Nature talks to me about many things, everything in fact, and I listen. But that one subject that has never come up.

Nature knows what's best, and knows I wasn't cut out for motherhood. In order to keep me happy, she thoughtfully did not install the maternal instinct program in me, the way she does with most others.



Oh, the comment about the farm, and having more children required hiring less help....and also ensuring that there is someone to take care of you in your golden years?

I disremember where I read this, but it makes sense to me....People in poorer countries tend to have more children, in part in the hope that at least one of the kids will "make it big" enough financially to support the parents in old age....well, what about the other kids who don't "make it big"?

Looking at it from the viewpoint, having that many kids seems incredibly selfish to me. You have 8 children, one, maybe two are financially secure enough to care for their own families, plus help out mom and dad. What about the other 6 or 7?
They turn around, and have 8 children in the hopes that.......
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onyxelle
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jun, 2006 10:38 am
Re: Why do we bear children and rear them?
pangheping wrote:
It take us so much energy ,so much time and money to bear and rear our children.Why do we still make the choice to do that?
IS It realy worthwhile for us to sacrifice so much for our offspring?


I did it so that I'd have someone to turn the tv when the remote conked out.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jun, 2006 05:27 pm
I think that it's kind of common wisdom that people in poorer, less developed countries tend to have more children and as a country/population industrializes they tend to have fewer children. I think that this has more to do with economies of scale than the hope that one or two will provide for the aging parents. Life is just a lot harder for individuals when there are no Wal-marts or big grocery stores or jobs or cars or washing machines or dishwasher or any other thing you can name that is a modern convenience we take for granted. When every meal has to be cooked from animals killed and food grown by the same set of people, it costs the same to feed one child as it does to feed 10. With 10, as they get older they can help grow the food, kill the animals, cook the food, and wash the dishes. Same goes for clothing. So in that case it really is the more the merrier. As they get older, if they earn any money at all it goes to the support of not just the parents but the whole family. As populations industrialize, machines and factories do the tedious work and more people can feed and clothe themselves without doing the work associated with those things. They pursue other things, earn more income, have fewer children, etc...
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Chai
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jun, 2006 06:13 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
I think that it's kind of common wisdom that people in poorer, less developed countries tend to have more children and as a country/population industrializes they tend to have fewer children. I think that this has more to do with economies of scale than the hope that one or two will provide for the aging parents. Life is just a lot harder for individuals when there are no Wal-marts or big grocery stores or jobs or cars or washing machines or dishwasher or any other thing you can name that is a modern convenience we take for granted. When every meal has to be cooked from animals killed and food grown by the same set of people, it costs the same to feed one child as it does to feed 10. With 10, as they get older they can help grow the food, kill the animals, cook the food, and wash the dishes. Same goes for clothing. So in that case it really is the more the merrier. As they get older, if they earn any money at all it goes to the support of not just the parents but the whole family. As populations industrialize, machines and factories do the tedious work and more people can feed and clothe themselves without doing the work associated with those things. They pursue other things, earn more income, have fewer children, etc...


Not arguing FD, your post made me think of a few things....

If life is harder with no walmarts and such, why would having more children make it easier? If it's as much work to feed one extra person as 10, why have the 10 instead of 2 or 3....if the extra people weren't there, there wouldn't be as many dishes to clean up.

When children from large families get older, they now have their own children to worry about, just as their parents did. If you are making just enough to support your own growing family, there's not much or anything left over for the support of mom and dad....But, mom and dad did have a successful son, who became a doctor, or the owner of the towns only clothing store.....He has enough to help out his parents who he loves, and wants to give the rest to HIS children, or as much as possible. So, the successful son doesn't really have alot to spare to his siblings himself. Otherwise, he wouldn't be getting ahead himself.

When someone becomes successful enough that they can get out of there, they leave with their families. They don't take their siblings and their families with them.

Religion plays a big factor in how many children you have, as done a womans being to make decisions about her own body.

I don't think many women, no matter where they are from, would think "well, it's the same amount of work to feed 2 as to feed 8, so I'll just go ahead and have 8. I have the feeling, with no evidence to back it, that given her druthers, she'd settle for 2 or 3.

This whole discussion of women having less children once their country gets more developed economically is kind of creepy. Like societies shouldn't strive to improve their living conditions, and just barely get by and have babies.

Society improves, women are given the opportunity to have a voice, and what they say is...."I don't want 10 children, I want 2 or 3"

Of course, some WILL say they want 8, just as some will say they want 0.

I don't see a thing in the world wrong with that.

Bottem line is....human beings are in no danger of going extinct, unless we're hit by an asteroid.

So....each of us should make our own personal decision in the matter.

Love ya...
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jun, 2006 06:53 pm
I pretty much agree with that. Religion's importance fades as societies industrialize while a woman's (and man's) choices increase.

As to the choice of 1 verses 10 kids if it costs the same, I think the idea is that you need the helping hands. The amount of work required to feed oneself is the same as the amount of work required to feed oneself and a big family. But in a big family you have more helpers once you get past the first 3 or 4 years. What those kids do when they're grown, well, hopefully they spend some time figuring out how to make life easier so that future generations don't have to live the same way.

I think anyone who is given a choice would prefer to live in a society that is advanced enough to allow them to choose whether or not to raise children and, if so, how many. In general, women with access to birth control tend to use it, even if it's just for the purpose of spacing their children so that their bodies aren't drained of nutrients.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jun, 2006 06:56 pm
Quick thought: when I say "cost to feed" I'm not really talking about dollars but about manpower and resources, which could include dollars. But think about if you had to be cook, maid, gardener, butcher, tailor, and laundromat just for your own things. The level of effort required to do it for one or two more people is miniscule, but the amount of work that they can contribute toward that effort can be great.
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Tico
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jun, 2006 07:12 pm
Another reason why third world societies have large families is the higher infant mortality. When the survival of your family and community depends on many hands helping out, but most of the children will not live to adulthood, then large families are the best insurance. This becomes codified in culture and religion over thousands of years. It takes huge government interference (China) or long periods of technological plenty (Western nations) to overcome these factors. It is not that far behind us.

When I asked my own mother why she had 5 children (when she and we freely admit that she doesn't have a maternal instinct), she answered, "So that someone will take care of me in my old age."
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jun, 2006 08:34 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
In general, women with access to birth control tend to use it, even if it's just for the purpose of spacing their children so that their bodies aren't drained of nutrients.


In terms of poorer/ less industrialized countries, I think that's the center of it. When women have access to birth control -- and are not up against crippling societal pressure not to use it -- they have fewer children. Those two barriers (and they're both significant) are hard to overcome in many of those countries, though.
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