Abortion.What do you think about it?

joefromchicago wrote:

BDV wrote:
Not a reply to one of my statements, but can't resist answering - Abortion is murder, but in civilised countries capital punishment is illegal for everyone, and fortunately where i live so is abortions. I am so surprised that the states still supports such draconian way to punish, maybe thats why you have such high crime rates!!!!

Fair enough. Would you, then, be in favor of treating abortionists in the same fashion as your laws currently treat murderers?

100% sure, and i do believe as it is illegal here, you can get quite a stiff sentence for doing an abortion, a doctor would get jail and would be struck of the register

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BDV wrote:

100% sure, and i do believe as it is illegal here...

Where exactly is "here?" You do not list your location in your profile.

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I thought he had said Ireland Joe. I might have it wrong .

Maybe I wasn't paying attention.

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Yes n.ireland, northern ireland and southern ireland have never legalised abortion, and don't look like they ever will even known ones a protestant state and the other catholic.

Quote:

"The vast majority of people in the Province, be they Catholic or Protestant, are implacably opposed to the extension of the 1967 Act to Northern Ireland ... My own experience is that the vast majority would not consider abortion." Dr Joe Hendron SDLP

Quote:

Questions about social abortion and abortion on demand found only a small minority of support.

Quote:

The strength of opposition to liberal abortion in Northern Ireland.

Even the pro-abortion lobby acknowledges the extent of opposition to abortion in Northern Ireland.

When moving the amendment to extend the Abortion Act to Northern Ireland, Lord Houghton said: "It seems that if there is a significant shift in public opinion in Northern Ireland, the Government would respond to that. It may be that there are difficulties in public opinion expressing itself in Northern Ireland on this matter - Why so much liberal opinion in Northern Ireland is suppressed it is difficult to understand, but there is an ethos about Northern Ireland which I am sure would be unpleasant for many of us. We can only conclude, therefore, that there is something very peculiar about Northern Ireland."

Source : http://www.preciouslife.net/aboutus-abortionni.asp

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and also this from one of our MP's, Same source

Quote:

"The Northern Ireland Unionist Party is committed to the biblical principle of the sanctity of human life. The understanding that human life is sacred is the basis of Christian morality. This understanding is also the bulwark of a civilised society. The Northern Ireland Unionist Party is therefore opposed to abortion and to the extension of the 1967 Abortion Act to Northern Ireland. Under the provisions of this Act 4,600,000 abortions have taken place in the United Kingdom since 1967. This is killing on a massive scale. The so-called "Pro-choice" position is that it is a woman's right to kill her unborn child. There is no moral basis for such a claim. The "pro-choice" mentality is a corrosive influence on civilised standards. The Northern Ireland Unionist Party is pledged to protect the life of the unborn child. Cedric Wilson NIUP.

Hitler would be proud of the UK, 4.6 million babies murdered, there has been 70 abortions in northern ireland since 1988, done to save motherslife or due to mental problems of mother, I also believe about 2000 people traveled to the UK to get an abortion.

Also have a look at this

Quote:

RESPECT FOR OUR UNBORN

For all the troubles and tragedies in Northern Ireland the moral, ethical and social problems are substantially less acute here than in other parts of the United Kingdom.

VIOLENCE AGAINST CHILDREN

Even including children killed by terrorist activity, the numbers who die as a result of violence rests at 0.0 per 100,000 meaning that the rates are too low to quantify. It should also be pointed out that the Republic of Ireland, which has an absolute law against abortion, also shares the same low rate of 0.0 per 100,000.

IN CONTRAST

The figures for England and Wales are 5.5 per 100,000, the fourth highest in the industrialised world. Killing children in the womb has certainly not inspired greater respect for the rights of the child in Britain.

MATERNAL DEATH RATE

Northern Ireland has the lowest maternal death rate in the United Kingdom, lower than England and Wales or Scotland.

The Republic of Ireland has one of the lowest maternal death rates recorded anywhere in the world, in comparison, the maternal death rate in England and Wales is over three times higher than in the Republic of Ireland.

BACK-STREET ABORTION

Pro-abortionists claim that the abortion law in Northern Ireland must be widened because there have been five deaths here following illegal operations since 1967. In fact during the same period 176 women have died in England, Scotland and Wales following legal abortion. (World Health Statistics Report Vol.30 No pp3 18-322 1977, & World Health Statistics Annual, various editions, WHO Geneva). There is no evidence of back-street abortion in Northern Ireland or in the Republic of Ireland. The evidence clearly demonstrates that there is no foundation to the claims of the pro-abortion lobby that illegal, so-called back-street abortions are being carried out in Northern Ireland.

ILLEGITIMACY

Illegitimacy rates in Northern Ireland are the lowest in the United Kingdom at 23.1% as compared to 33.9% in England and Wales and 33.7% in Scotland in 1995, the latest year for which figures are available. (Hansard, 20th March 1997).

Sorce : http://www.preciouslife.net/respect-for-our-unborn.asp

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I don't know what Hitler could have had to do with abortion in the UK.

In Northern Ireland the 1861 Act and the Criminal Justice (Northern Ireland) Act of 1945 are the defining principles re abortion:

Quote:

Since Northern Ireland was left out of the Abortion Act in 1967, the laws have grown increasingly ambiguous. A woman is generally given an abortion if:

She has a serious medical or psychological problem that is endangering her life if she continues her pregnancy;

She has severe learning difficulties;

Doctor's detect abnormalities in the foetus;

In some cases, women will be offered an abortion if they have become pregnant as a result of rape.

source: TheSite.org

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Didn't say he had anything to do with it, I just said he would be proud, and i covered what you quoted, 70 women had abortions in n.ireland for medical reasons since 1988, hmm I would say most murder clinics in the states and uk would do that in a day

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Well done BDV. If I lived in Ireland I might think of voting.

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And from the repulic of Ireland, as you can see anyone who tries to force an abortion is liable to life in prison, in ireland the laws are stronger than that of northern ireland, even if you are raped you have to go to court, and only if there is a possibility of the person commiting suicide will an abortion be permitted, and for this you must travel to the uk.

Quote:

Article 58 "Every woman being with child, who with intent to procure her own miscarriage shall unlawfully administer to herself any poison or other noxious thing.....and whomsoever, with intent to procure the miscarriage of any woman whether she be or be not with child shall unlawfully administer to her or cause to be taken by her any poison or other noxious thing....with the like intent shall be guilty of a felon, and being convicted thereof shall be liable......to be kept in penal servitude for life."

Source: http://www.ifpa.ie/abortion/hist.html

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real life wrote:

I dare any pro-abortion person to show medically why the unborn should not be considered a separate patient, or why the unborn must be considered medically a 'part of the mother's body.' It cannot be done.

It doesn't have to be done to justify the position we on the pro-choice side take.

Whatever it is...a zygote, an embryo, a fetus, or a fully live human being as you insist it is...

...it is growing inside the body of a living human being WHO HAS THE RIGHT TO SAY SHE NO LONGER WANTS TO HOST WHATEVER IT IS.

IT IS A UNIQUE SITUATION...

...and you goddam holy rollers who want to brown nose that idiot god of yours ought to keep your goddam noses out of the decision.

But of course, that is only my opinion.

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You're missing the point Frank.

RL is too easy to argue with. Germaine Greer slashed his position to ribbons in the late sixties. The Church wouldn't go to the wall to uphold RL's position. There are important principles at stake. Dignity being one.

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spendius wrote:

You're missing the point Frank.

I honestly hope not.

One of the reasons there is so much arguing past each other on this issue...is that Life and others like him...simply will not deal with the point argued in that last post of mine....and argued earlier by Joe.

This pregnancy is occurring in an individual woman's body.

It is a unique situation in life.

If the woman decides to terminate that pregnancy...she should have the right to do so. There are no rights this zygote, embryo, or fetus has that should one-up her rights.

Life, and the others in his camp, keep going back to the "it is a separate life" argument. But the struture of the situation is such that even if that argument prevails...SO WHAT!!!

It is happening in an individual woman's body...and where is it written that the woman, upon having an egg fertilized in her body, gives up any rights over that body????

In any case, I doubt any of us on the pro-choice side think we will ever get people like Life to change...and there is nothing wrong with that from either side of the debate. But those of us on this side feel every bit as strongly about protecting a woman's right to decide to continue a pregnancy or terminate it...as Life's side feels about protecting what they see as a living human being.

As for the "living human being"...and considering so much of that side is motivated by religious concerns...what is the lose to the being?

It doesn't get to live a few years on planet Earth...and according to most of the anti-choice proponents...gets a free pass into Heaven where it will live in unbridled joy for all of eternity.

As raw-deals go...it ain't the worst anyone's ever gotten.

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BDV wrote:

Also have a look at this

If your position is that life begins at conception and that abortion is the equivalent of murder, then it really doesn't matter whether abortion also leads to a variety of social ills. If abortion caused poverty, crime, drug addiction, moral depravity, and the heebie-jeebies, it wouldn't matter to your argument, no more so than if abortion caused everyone to **** lollipops and piss rainbows. You take a moral absolutist stance, so matters that relate only to social utility are irrelevant. I suggest, then, that you save yourself the effort and refrain from bringing them up.

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When Corinna told Ovid that she had procured an abortion he realised instantly that it was water under the bridge and said to her-

"Don't ever do that again".

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Bloody hell, aren't u on your high horse, one of the stats that many stats eaters will love is the fact even during our "war" which lasted thirtyish years our child mortality rate was 0 in every 100,000, where as countries with abortion (Who lack respect in children) where 5 or above, and thats the uk, i am quite sure the usa be would quite higher.

TBH abortion is not the equivalent of murder, it is murder, and if you bitch about my country then i have to inform you that we have one of the lowest murder/drug addiction/ and moral depravity in the world, and that includes when we where bombing and shooting each other.

So to round up, love abortion then come here and have one, are you willing to tempt our system ?

One final point, I remember seeing an interview with an SS executioneer and he went to any lengths to justify why he killed jews, did he have regret ? NO, so stop trying to justify an act of evil, sure if you where aborted u wouldn't be on here bitching at the moment.

joefromchicago wrote:

BDV wrote:
Also have a look at this

If your position is that life begins at conception and that abortion is the equivalent of murder, then it really doesn't matter whether abortion also leads to a variety of social ills. If abortion caused poverty, crime, drug addiction, moral depravity, and the heebie-jeebies, it wouldn't matter to your argument, no more so than if abortion caused everyone to **** lollipops and piss rainbows. You take a moral absolutist stance, so matters that relate only to social utility are irrelevant. I suggest, then, that you save yourself the effort and refrain from bringing them up.

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joefromchicago wrote:

real life wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:
Which still leaves unanswered this question:
If you believe that abortion is murder, then why don't you support capital punishment for abortionists?

Obviously, I have answered your question more than once.

You protest that you 'don't understand' , and I agree.

You seem to have little grasp of the issues involved, having stated several times that it makes no difference whether the unborn is a living human being or not.

The Supreme Court which decided Roe stated that the personhood of the unborn was the only issue which would justify banning abortion.

That you do not understand the centrality of this issue does not surprise me.

Let me repeat: If you believe that abortion is murder, then why don't you support capital punishment for abortionists?

Repeat the question all you want, I've given the answer that you pretend not to know. I've told you what I do support and why.

-----------------------------------------

It is the Supreme Court that stated that the personhood of the unborn was the issue that could justify banning abortion.

For you and the pro-abort camp to pretend that it doesn't matter if the unborn is a living human being or not, is to ignore the Court decision that you otherwise seem to regard as engraved on stone tablets with the finger of a god. How schizophrenic is that?

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BDV wrote:

Bloody hell, aren't u on your high horse, one of the stats that many stats eaters will love is the fact even during our "war" which lasted thirtyish years our child mortality rate was 0 in every 100,000, where as countries with abortion (Who lack respect in children) where 5 or above, and thats the uk, i am quite sure the usa be would quite higher.

TBH abortion is not the equivalent of murder, it is murder, and if you bitch about my country then i have to inform you that we have one of the lowest murder/drug addiction/ and moral depravity in the world, and that includes when we where bombing and shooting each other.

So to round up, love abortion then come here and have one, are you willing to tempt our system ?

One final point, I remember seeing an interview with an SS executioneer and he went to any lengths to justify why he killed jews, did he have regret ? NO, so stop trying to justify an act of evil, sure if you where aborted u wouldn't be on here bitching at the moment.

It is rare indeed that someone so thoroughly misinterprets one of my posts, but rarer still that someone does so and, in the process, creates a minor comic masterpiece. In response to my post, which pointed out that it was a waste of time to bring up useless statistics, you counter with more useless statistics. It's not just ironic, it's positively meta-ironic. Really, BDV, yours is no ordinary talent.

Furthermore, I should just mention that I never bitched about your country -- as far as I know your country sits at the pinnacle of culture and beauty. I will, however, have to pass on your generous offer of travelling to Northern Ireland to have an abortion. Nature has, alas, deprived me of the opportunity, not to mention the means, of having a child, let alone having an abortion. If I ever have the pleasure of visiting your beautiful homeland, then, I will, rather than submitting to an illegal, back-alley abortion, have to enjoy some other samplings from your vast cultural bounty.

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Part of the cultural bounty of which you could avail youself would be buying crack from the narco-terrorists who were previously the Ulster Defense Force or the Provisional IRA . . . don't miss that once in a lifetime opportunity ! ! !

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real life wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:
Let me repeat: If you believe that abortion is murder, then why don't you support capital punishment for abortionists?

Repeat the question all you want, I've given the answer that you pretend not to know. I've told you what I do support and why.

I appreciate the fact that you have answered several of my questions, real life, but you have not answered that question. If you have actually answered it, then the least you could do is provide a link to the post in which you provided the answer. On the other hand, if you just want to pretend that you've answered it, then you'll have to excuse me if I don't play along with your childish game of make believe.

real life wrote:

It is the Supreme Court that stated that the personhood of the unborn was the issue that could justify banning abortion.

In which decision? Give me a name or a legal citation.

real life wrote:

For you and the pro-abort camp to pretend that it doesn't matter if the unborn is a living human being or not, is to ignore the Court decision that you otherwise seem to regard as engraved on stone tablets with the finger of a god. How schizophrenic is that?

My position does not rest on any supreme court precedent, no more so than your position rests on one.

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I was not in the mood to browse 35 pages of this topic with no doubt a lot of bickering between the pro- and anti abortion camps. It's a difficult topic which has already created much debate, and will continue to do so, since IMHO I feel both sides have valid points.
So I will just give my own opinion, which is pro-abortion, with some delimiters.
The circumstances under which abortion is contemplated by women are many, and diverse. Therefore, it's impossible to make one simple statement regarding the lot. I'd say that any woman who feels the baby growing in her stomach is unwanted, should have the option to consider abortion. But, I am strongly opposed to people who simply use abortion as some sort of anti-conceptive in the sense that they have not thought this over in a serious manner.
Look, I won't go into rape victims who want abortion, I wholly symphatise with them, and I am 100% behind abortion if such is wanted in such cases.
But any other woman who finds herself pregnant and is contemplating abortion should first consider alternatives like putting the child up for adoption. I think this should be talked over by unbiasedprofessionals who are prepared to give a fair opinion on the matter. People who are well aware of the consequences of abortion, and are willing to discuss those with the woman and her lifepartner (if one exists).

Naj.

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Abortion.What do you think about it?

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