Canada has its share of holocaust deniers. They are not very interesting people, other than in a sociological sense. Likewise, the folks who contend (often they are the same folks) that 9/11 was a Mossad operation which, in the days preceding, turned to their American Jew-Rollodex so as to warn Trade Tower jewish employees to take the day off.
Apologies for misunderstanding the purpose of the thread.
In his thread,
Top White House posts go to Jews, Freedom4Free makes plain his obsessive contention that Jews have taken over the government in order to forward a Zionist agenda.
In response to his opening post, i posted the following:
Setanta wrote:Ah, the fragrant spring-time stench of antisemitic conspiracy obsession . . .
To which he responded with the following:
freedom4free wrote:This country is largely controlled by a single dominant group, whose interests do not really coincide with America's.
We've already had a good taste of that with Wolfowitz and Perle etc. They got us into the Iraq mess largely to benefit (what else)Israel.
Source quote
There are a few members (most of whom i suspect are young) who have posted long screeds, and when you chase down the sources, you find ostensibly leftwing sites which are full of anti-semitic drivel. This is so even when the quoted material provided by the member here is not anti-semitic in character. This is disturbing. No holocaust should be forgotten, marginalized or denied. Whether it were the destruction of European Jews, or Armenians in Turkey, or the horrible slaughter in Cambodia by Pol Pot--these are tragedies which are not to be denied if we are to reform humanity, in the hope that such things will never again occur.
I don't see how anyone can deny the holocaust and be thought a serious person to be paid attention to. It was horrible and inhumane and ugly.
I think I get what Setanta is trying to say. There is a difference in being against some US policies regarding Israel and some actions of Israel towards the Palestinians and being an anti-Semite. Making wild unsubstantiated conspiracy claims only gives more ammunition to those who try to link having criticism of Israel and some US policies and decisions regarding Israel with being anti-Semitic.
The way I look at it is like this; from the get go making the State of Israel where people from all religions and ethnicity were living was not fair to all the other people living in Palestine who were not Jewish. Some kind of planning should have been made for the rest of the population living in the area. However, Israel is now established and the world should work from there.
It is not fair that the Palestinians just have to accept whatever crumbs Israel decides to throw its way. They should have equal say in where the borders are and so forth. But has not been the case all these many years. The frustration of it is bound to cause hopelessness. I personally think that it is self defeating to use suicide bombers as way to achieve their ends as it only more fuel for the Israeli's to call the shots. They need a break with a good charismatic leader who knows how to work this stuff in the world community with a way of doing these things without resorting to violence against civilians.
The rest of the Arab world in my opinion has not been very helpful towards the Palestinians either. They just use the situation to rally their cause but in the end they don't seem to be helping much.
I don't explain myself well and more than likely said more mumbo jumbo than anyone wants to read, but I just wanted to somehow convey there is difference in feeling sympathy for the Palestinians and being an anti-Semite.
I understood your remarks, Revel, and i agree with you.
Yes the single dominant 'Zionest' group, nothing to do with Jews.
Setanta, this thread would have been interesting...
You have put people off from debating Israel's Policy, it shouldn't have been created to bash anti-Semites.
It doesn't take much to be branded anti-Semitic
The Independent (London)
May 6, 2006 Saturday
It doesn't take much to be branded anti-Semitic
Richard Ingram
The Israelis and Scientologists have at least one thing in common They both believe in bro beating their critics fro all sides in the hope that eventually they will give up an go away.
Anyjournalist who ventures to cast aspersions on either party is likely to find himself in receipt of angry letters, threats of libel actions, reporting to the Press Complaints Commission.
In the case of the Israelis you will almost inevitably be branded as an anti-Semite.
Such a policy is highly effective. Faced with a possible barrage of protests, editors become wary while commentators may decide that it isn't worth all the hassle.
Over the years, the Israeli authorities have made a special target of the BBC, alleging all kinds of bias on the part of its correspondents such as the admirable Orla Guerin, left.
It was in response to the constant complaints that the BBC appointed a former civil servant, Sir Quentin Thomas, to examine the whole question. And to the surprise of almost everyone Sir Quentin last week reported that the BBC was at fault for showing a pro-Israel bias rather than the reverse.
There was, he said, "little reporting of the difficulties faced by the Palestinians in their daily lives and a failure to convey adequately the disparity in the Israeli and Palestinian experience, reflecting that one side is in control and the other side lives under occupation".
No sensible person could quarrel with that judgement. But it remains to be seen just how long it will be before Sir Quentin is himself branded as an anti-Semite.
The Independent (London)
May 5, 2006 Friday
Letter: Power of pro-Israel lobby is exaggerated;
Sir: Robert Fisk's article of 27 April prompts the question "How do we define anti-Semitism?" I was given that label when, living in a largely Jewish community with many Jewish friends in New York in 1967, I had the temerity to condemn the pre-emptive strike carried out by Israel on its neighbours without a prior declaration of war' even though some liberal Jews also questioned the morality of that action.
One should be able to criticise the policies of the state of Israel and should be able actively to oppose those policies and their consequent actions, without being labelled anti-Semitic.
The world community has accepted the legitimate existence of the state of Israel through the United Nations, but Walt and Mearsheimer are right to point out that the United States (and Britain) should have no interest in supporting the policies of that government unless there is a clear commonality of interest. As those policies, as pursued since 1967, stand condemned by resolutions of the United Nations, then neither the USA nor the UK should support them.
To argue against the policies of the state of Israel is not to be anti-Semitic. Only verbally or physically attacking Jews and their personal rights can justify that dreadful appellation.
ANTHONY D WOOD
LISKEARD, CORNWALL
The Independent (London)
May 5, 2006 Friday
Letter: Power of pro-Israel lobby is exaggerated;
ABRAHAM H FOXMAN
Sir: Robert Fisk's defence of the Mearsheimer-Walt paper fails on several counts ("United States of Israel?" 27 April). Fisk does not recognise the incendiary charges in the Mearsheimer-Walt paper: that supporters of Israel, meaning Jews, control and distort American policy in a way to serve Israel's interests against the interests of America.
Such exaggerations of the power of this pro-Israel lobby, the disregard for the consistently broad-based American public and bi-partisan support for Israel, the omission of the very many interests that the US has in a strong and safe Israel, and their overriding theme that policymakers are controlled by the "lobby", adds up to an effort to delegitimise the work of pro-Israel activists and has elements of classic anti- Jewish conspiracy theories.
There is lively debate when it comes to how to approach US policy toward Israel, in particular in the media and on college campuses, where the viewpoint is at times clearly anti-Israel. Even within the Jewish community there is a diversity of opinion. Those who ignore this multitude of opinions are intent on seeing the world through their own narrowly conceived and intentionally distorted prism.
Mearsheimer and Walt try to give the impression that they are dealing seriously with Middle East issues, but their paper amounts to nothing more than a conspiratorial anti-Semitic analysis invoking the canards of Jewish power and Jewish control. And it appears that The Independent has bought into their conspiratorial analysis by the cover image of Israeli stars on the American flag alongside the column's title, "United States of Israel?"
ABRAHAM H FOXMAN
NATIONAL DIRECTOR ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE NEW YORK
Who the Hell are you to tell me what a thread i start should be about? It's about leftist antisemites--and i thank you for showing up to make my point for me.
Setanta wrote:Who the Hell are you to tell me what a thread i start should be about? It's about leftist antisemites--and i thank you for showing up to make my point for me.
That's what I call chutzpah!
Keep flashing your cards, if it makes you sleep well.
Some people will come to
urinate in your thread.
Awwww what a relieve, i'm out! :wink:
I see the lock being prepared...what a shame...such an interesting thread
freedom4free wrote:it shouldn't have been created to bash anti-Semites.
Is there anything better?
~~~~
Great post, revel.
I appreciate this thread.
I appreciate it, as well- but no where near the way I appreciate our visionary President Bush, for staying the course and carrying out his strategy for freedom, democracy and victory in Iraq!
And I appreciate your appreciation of our great President's audacious plan for victory in Iraq.
blacksmithn wrote:And I appreciate your appreciation of our great President's audacious plan for victory in Iraq.
...and I appreciate the audaciousness, as I appreciate your appreciation of my appreciation of our President's audacious plan for victory in Iraq! It's just around the corner!!
blatham wrote: An interesting and illuminating exercise would be to read Ha'aretz for a week and compare it with the New York Times on the single matter of beating the drums for war with Iran. You get that here daily but you don't in Ha'aretz. Ain't that odd?
Only you would hear the beating of drums for war with Iran in the NY Times.
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:dlowan wrote:Finn d'Abuzz wrote:dlowan wrote:snood wrote:"In the United States, we do not have full-throated, full-throttle debate about Israel," she wrote. "In Israel, they have it as a matter of course, but the truth is that the accusation of anti-Semitism is far too often raised in this country against anyone who criticizes the government of Israel. ... I don't know that I've ever felt intimidated by the knee-jerk 'you're anti-Semitic' charge leveled at anyone who criticizes Israel, but I do know I have certainly heard it often enough to become tired of it. And I wonder if that doesn't produce the same result: giving up on the discussion."
-Molly Ivins
That actually strikes me as being, currently, the most pressing danger the conspiracy/anti semite people pose....that it becomes easy for the pro Israel, (no matter what it does and how badly it behaves), people to smear those delivering a rational critique and proposing a different US policy towards Israel and the Middle East as antisemitic, and thus to hinder proper debate.
Poor Liberals...smeared with a broad brush of prejudice. Imagine that?
So, are you suggesting that no conservative questions American policy towards Israel, or Israel's policies and actions?
Not at all. What I am suggesting, however, is that unlike their Liberal counterparts, those Conservative who criticize Israel are not casting themselves as victims, and don't have the temerity to utter an incredibly ridculous statement like the "most pressing danger" posed by actual anti-semites is that they make it tough for honest critics of Israel.
It is amazing that this tripe wasn't set upon by all posters as it would have been had it read: The most pressing danger of the Ku Klux Klan is that it makes it difficult to for people to criticize Jesse jackson and Al Sharpton without being called a racist.
Poor conservatives......always assuming that anyone talking about anything is speaking in terms of the narrow American drama between "liberals" and conservatives.
Shouldn't that read "Poor American conservatives..." Presumably there are conservatives and liberals in Australia as there are in other parts of the world. It is not understood by "conservatives," that one means "American conservatives," and yet you default to the broader term. I, of course, could be wrong but this suggests to me that you yourself are well entrenched in the narrow American drama of which you write, and only take a lofty international perspective when it suits your argument.
This is not a "liberal"/conservative issue as far as I am concerned....is it actually so in the US?
Is it actually so in the US?
Anti-semitism is not.
Victim status for critics of Israel is.
I am also not implying that the effect I mention is the only possible serious consequence....we have seen too many instances of the awful effects of anti-Semitism in the past not to worry about it for the future.
No, you didn't imply it was the only possible serious consequence of ant-semitism. You expressed that is was the most pressing danger of such behavior. Nice try at a recovery dlowan, but too little too late.
Actually, your silly response illustrates exactly what I was speaking of very neatly. Well done.
I will respond to what "meat" your post has later.
dlowan wrote:
Actually, your silly response illustrates exactly what I was speaking of very neatly. Well done.
I will respond to what "meat" your post has later.
Hard not to be reminded of a child's response of
"You're the silly one!"
A2K is chocked full of yesterdays "left-wing conspiracy paranoia propaganda" only IT WAS TRUE
. I remember being a small group of people on the street trying to stop a war in Iraq armed with "left-wing conspiracy paranoia propaganda" about Haliburton, Fabricated intelligence about non-existent WMDs, unprecedented pre-emptive war in light of diplomatic options, Oil industry and government conflict of interest and unexplained facts on How, why and Who attacked us on 9/11, etc,etc. In short every thing that is common knowledge today on A2K was "left-wing conspiracy paranoia propaganda" yesterday. If people would have listened to us instead of yelling "left-wing conspiracy paranoia propaganda" to be part of the politacally correct mob rule we would be a lot better off and so would the families hurdled into balls as the bombs dropped.
Every ideology, every religion, every group of people shares the capacity for evil. Are we to think the Jews are any more less capable of evil then any other group? Whatever. The truth is all that matters and the truth is not popular. For telling the truth you get called everything in the book on every side of the block.
