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LEFT-WING ANTISEMITISM

 
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 May, 2006 08:07 pm
A Practical Manual
Anti-Semitism vs. Anti-Zionism
By URI AVNERY
http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery01192004.html
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 May, 2006 08:17 pm
I've never liked most juice, gives me acid-stomach.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 May, 2006 08:26 pm
fishin' wrote:
dlowan wrote:
snood wrote:
"In the United States, we do not have full-throated, full-throttle debate about Israel," she wrote. "In Israel, they have it as a matter of course, but the truth is that the accusation of anti-Semitism is far too often raised in this country against anyone who criticizes the government of Israel. ... I don't know that I've ever felt intimidated by the knee-jerk 'you're anti-Semitic' charge leveled at anyone who criticizes Israel, but I do know I have certainly heard it often enough to become tired of it. And I wonder if that doesn't produce the same result: giving up on the discussion."

-Molly Ivins



That actually strikes me as being, currently, the most pressing danger the conspiracy/anti semite people pose....that it becomes easy for the pro Israel, (no matter what it does and how badly it behaves), people to smear those delivering a rational critique and proposing a different US policy towards Israel and the Middle East as antisemitic, and thus to hinder proper debate.


Remonds me of our current immigration "debate" where anyone who might oppose a wide open border is immediately a racist...

Cool

My greatest concern is the people who deny anti-Semitism, but encourage it by saying it's only criticism of Israel, especially when it doesn't even include mention of Israel.
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 May, 2006 08:27 pm
Re: LEFT-WING ANTISEMITISM
Setanta wrote:
We have some members here who retail a new version of the Protocols of Zion. These are leftwingnuts who rant about the current administration being controlled by Jews. Personally, i think our foreign policy is and has been for fifty years hobbled by our support for Israel. However, these jokers take it many steps further down the road to anti-semitism. They contend that Jews control the government, and that all foreign policy decisions are filtered through a Zionist plot of some sort. (Excuse me for not having all the details of their conspiracy paranoia--it's not something i am interested in reading up on.)

What the ? ! ? ! ?

What ya think goys and birls--are they looney, or not?


They're not looney, they're vile and vapid hypocrites.

When Jews were hapless victims, they were the darlings of the Left. Now that they are aggressive Israelis, they are international criminals. Same religion, same people, same target of half the word's hatred. The difference is that they are no longer willing to sacrifice themselves or their children for a self-destructive passivity. They don't really care to be the poster children of earthly suffering anymore. They have relinquished the mantle of victimhood to Mexican Immigrants, Palestinians, and Gay Mid-westerners.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 May, 2006 08:29 pm
fishin' wrote:
dlowan wrote:
snood wrote:
"In the United States, we do not have full-throated, full-throttle debate about Israel," she wrote. "In Israel, they have it as a matter of course, but the truth is that the accusation of anti-Semitism is far too often raised in this country against anyone who criticizes the government of Israel. ... I don't know that I've ever felt intimidated by the knee-jerk 'you're anti-Semitic' charge leveled at anyone who criticizes Israel, but I do know I have certainly heard it often enough to become tired of it. And I wonder if that doesn't produce the same result: giving up on the discussion."

-Molly Ivins



That actually strikes me as being, currently, the most pressing danger the conspiracy/anti semite people pose....that it becomes easy for the pro Israel, (no matter what it does and how badly it behaves), people to smear those delivering a rational critique and proposing a different US policy towards Israel and the Middle East as antisemitic, and thus to hinder proper debate.


Remonds me of our current immigration "debate" where anyone who might oppose a wide open border is immediately a racist...


Or how even mentioning there are opposing views to such sacrosanct subjects as gay rights gets you labeled a homophobe
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 May, 2006 08:33 pm
snood wrote:
"In the United States, we do not have full-throated, full-throttle debate about Israel," she wrote. "In Israel, they have it as a matter of course, but the truth is that the accusation of anti-Semitism is far too often raised in this country against anyone who criticizes the government of Israel. ... I don't know that I've ever felt intimidated by the knee-jerk 'you're anti-Semitic' charge leveled at anyone who criticizes Israel, but I do know I have certainly heard it often enough to become tired of it. And I wonder if that doesn't produce the same result: giving up on the discussion."

-Molly Ivins


Interesting quote and post from two personages who will launch an accusation of racism or xenophobia at the drop of a hat.

Poor Liberals, hoisted on their own petards.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 May, 2006 08:33 pm
snood--

You don't see the difference in forcing immigration into this country to be done legally, and withholding someone's civil rights?

It is so sad that legal Americans are compared to those who aren't even citizens of this country. Gay people haven't broken a law by being born.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 May, 2006 08:36 pm
dlowan wrote:
snood wrote:
"In the United States, we do not have full-throated, full-throttle debate about Israel," she wrote. "In Israel, they have it as a matter of course, but the truth is that the accusation of anti-Semitism is far too often raised in this country against anyone who criticizes the government of Israel. ... I don't know that I've ever felt intimidated by the knee-jerk 'you're anti-Semitic' charge leveled at anyone who criticizes Israel, but I do know I have certainly heard it often enough to become tired of it. And I wonder if that doesn't produce the same result: giving up on the discussion."

-Molly Ivins



That actually strikes me as being, currently, the most pressing danger the conspiracy/anti semite people pose....that it becomes easy for the pro Israel, (no matter what it does and how badly it behaves), people to smear those delivering a rational critique and proposing a different US policy towards Israel and the Middle East as antisemitic, and thus to hinder proper debate.


Poor Liberals...smeared with a broad brush of prejudice. Imagine that?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 May, 2006 08:41 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
Such doublespeak you spout, Finn. Meant to antagonize, but not enlighten.


Edgar, it was your words, not mine. If there was doublespeak, it was yours.

As for antagonizing versus enlightening, please spare me your sanctimonious hypocrisy. You can not be enlightened, only reinforced. Take care Mr Pot in calling Mr Kettle black.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 May, 2006 08:54 pm
I scroll trolls this night, Finn, starting with you.
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 May, 2006 09:01 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
I scroll trolls this night, Finn, starting with you.


Promises, promises.
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Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 May, 2006 09:04 pm
Scroll.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 May, 2006 10:45 pm
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
dlowan wrote:
snood wrote:
"In the United States, we do not have full-throated, full-throttle debate about Israel," she wrote. "In Israel, they have it as a matter of course, but the truth is that the accusation of anti-Semitism is far too often raised in this country against anyone who criticizes the government of Israel. ... I don't know that I've ever felt intimidated by the knee-jerk 'you're anti-Semitic' charge leveled at anyone who criticizes Israel, but I do know I have certainly heard it often enough to become tired of it. And I wonder if that doesn't produce the same result: giving up on the discussion."

-Molly Ivins



That actually strikes me as being, currently, the most pressing danger the conspiracy/anti semite people pose....that it becomes easy for the pro Israel, (no matter what it does and how badly it behaves), people to smear those delivering a rational critique and proposing a different US policy towards Israel and the Middle East as antisemitic, and thus to hinder proper debate.


Poor Liberals...smeared with a broad brush of prejudice. Imagine that?


So, are you suggesting that no conservative questions American policy towards Israel, or Israel's policies and actions?


Poor conservatives......always assuming that anyone talking about anything is speaking in terms of the narrow American drama between "liberals" and conservatives.

This is not a "liberal"/conservative issue as far as I am concerned....is it actually so in the US?



I am also not implying that the effect I mention is the only possible serious consequence....we have seen too many instances of the awful effects of anti-Semitism in the past not to worry about it for the future.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 May, 2006 10:59 pm
I think that where Mearsheimer and Walt go wrong in their paper is that they think that the main reason for this administration's invasion and occupation of Iraq was mainly for the benefit of Israel, and their dismissal of the oil rationale. I think that Israel's interests were one of the reasons among others, but I don't think it was the main reason. I think control of Iraq's oil was of prime importance to this administration, as is the establishment of a central base in the Middle East from which to exercise military hegemony. I think that there were different interests within this oligarchic administration that all had a stake in their war in Iraq. Israel's interests were one of many, not the main one.

I don't see their paper as being anti-Semitic. They are certainly singling out the "Israel Lobby," but they make a distinction between that and Jews in general. They are saying that the "Israel Lobby" pushed for this war; the US' Jewish population was mostly against it; and Israelis were mostly for it.

Of all of the criticisms of their paper, I've only read one, Alan Dershowitz' response. In it he accuses Mearsheimer and Walt of three types of major errors: quotations out of context, misstated and or omitted facts; and "weak logic." What's ironic is that Dershowitz' own response is rife with these very errors itself.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 May, 2006 05:15 am
I knew we'd get a certain amount of rightwing trash in here to gloat, so i don't intend to waste any time with their peurile and witless crowing.

Freedom4Free has left himself open for this since he's come into this thread to defend his goofy Zionist conspiracy paranoia, while denying that he is anti-semitic. Never the less, he doubts the holocaust, and uses someone else's dull-witted rationales to establish his position, in the thread he entitled My Holocaust Problems.

I don't pay any attention to those who are witless enough to accuse someone of anti-semitism because they criticize Israel. I criticize Israel, and i criticize the notion that the United States give special consideration to Israel in their foreign policy. What this thread is about is the insidious trend among some people who are to be considered to be on the left to go beyond criticizing Israel, to the point of alleging a vast Zionist conspiracy, and then taking the next steps, such as denying the holocaust. Conspiracy theories are usually ludicrous, and i usually laugh at them--but this sort of thing is insidious, because it's a "gateway drug" to hatred of Jews.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 May, 2006 05:34 am
It's not a simple matter. The Mearsheimer/Walt piece in the London Reveiw of Books is really very careful, rational and well cited. If you haven't read it, you ought to. The subsequent edition carries letters on the piece (including from Dershowitz) and the Nation has a response to all the rukus from Mearsheimer/Walt. I too believe that they minimize the factor of oil interests in their analysis (Chomsky has the most compelling argument I've read re that point) and that is one of the points they address in their Nation piece.

One can make the argument that Israel is just like any other country (eg Canada) in that many foreign states have "lobbies" working within the US to steer US policy in advantageous directions. Of course, that's not terribly discerning nor helpful as it doesn't speak to the magnitude of influence, the consequences of it, nor to what sector or population that lobby really represents (eg diamond interests but not really the citizens of Mobutozango). For example, the "neoconservatives" surrounding this administration aren't linked to Israel so much as to Likkud and the people and interests around Sharon.

But it isn't just a matter of chance that Mearsheimer/Walt couldn't get their article published in the US. The thesis - significant and negative consequences arising from the influence of the Israeli lobby on US foreign policy - hasn't been a "proper" topic of political conversation. Mike Kinsley made the point several years ago re motives for the Iraq war describing Israel as "the elephant in the room no one is talking about".

A curiosity which escapes most people (simply because so few read any Israeli press) is that criticism of Israeli government policy, particularly regarding the Palestinian problems, is far more common and vital in Israel than it is in North American press. An interesting and illuminating exercise would be to read Ha'aretz for a week and compare it with the New York Times on the single matter of beating the drums for war with Iran. You get that here daily but you don't in Ha'aretz. Ain't that odd?

And one has to differentiate the various corners of the jewish population residing here (or in Canada). There is nothing like unanimity on any question except Israel's survival. How to ensure or work towards that survival is where all the disagreement sits.

Here's an interesting and relevant piece...
Quote:
The chairman of the Republican Party was booed at an American Jewish Committee event over comments on Iraq.
Ken Mehlman, who is Jewish, said Iraq posed less of a challenge now than under Saddam Hussein.

Mehlman was otherwise politely received when he spoke Tuesday at the AJCommittee's 100th anniversary celebrations in Washington, and he got warm applause when he said the Bush administration would not tolerate an Iranian nuclear bomb and always would stand by Israel.

The room burst into applause, however, when AJCommittee board member Edith Everett asked Mehlman to "take a message" to President Bush to stop linking Israel and Iran.

"It does not help Israel and it does not help American Jews to appear to be stimulators of any action against Iran," Everett said.

She added that "it's easy to understand why Iran is not worried about us" because Iraq is consuming so many U.S. resources.

Mehlman replied by acknowledging that Iraq was a "challenge," but claimed it's "less of a challenge than when Saddam Hussein was in power."

The room filled with boos and hisses.
http://jta.org/page_view_breaking_story.asp?intid=2450
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 May, 2006 05:53 am
All of which has what, Mr. Mountie, to do with those who make the leap from criticism of Israel to an allegation of Jews controlling the government for Zionist reasons, and end by questioning the historical reality of the Jewish holocaust?
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 May, 2006 06:01 am
I've been to Zion. It's in Utah, it's a beautiful national park and it's full of Mormons. I believe that the Latter Day Saints are in competition with the evangelicals for domination of the US of A. I once met a jew in Zion, he was visiting from Israel and was wearing L.L. Bean walking shorts.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 May, 2006 06:05 am
Proof positive, if any were needed, that you can't trust them Jew-boys.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 May, 2006 06:06 am
Setanta wrote:
All of which has what, Mr. Mountie, to do with those who make the leap from criticism of Israel to an allegation of Jews controlling the government for Zionist reasons, and end by questioning the historical reality of the Jewish holocaust?



Er...they suck?
0 Replies
 
 

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