THE TIGER

On reflection it might be interesting to those gents with an interest in ladies of a certain age who wear tweed skirts over expansive bottoms and practical shoes and who have vague literary pretensions.

I'm kind of wary of the internet right now. I don't feel that it's my friend - if you know what I mean. So I'll just have to find out about my news and relate my news in other ways (which I happen to enjoy more anyway). There's nothing like holding a book or newspaper in your hand or hearing a friend's voice. The internet just can't compare in my book.
It is however a good source of information. I lived a long time without it - and I can learn to live without it again. The library - on the other hand- has always been my friend.

I hate to say it - but I'm not a big fan or believer in this pope anyway - so I'm not surprised that he may have gotten himself in hot water. He seems kind of regimented and rigid- I don't want to stereotype - but that's the impression I get.
Besides which, I'm not a believer in the concept of the pope overall. I hope it doesn't offend anyone - (are either of you catholic?)- but I don't believe that any human being is infallible. I also don't believe that any human being needs an intercessory in terms of a relationship with a god figure.

I have read some Mailer Spendius. I read the one about Gary Gilmore- I'm terrible with titles- oh yeah, The Executioner's Song. I found it really, really interesting. I have to say that in terms of American literature - I'm much more drawn to females. I like Toni Morrison a lot, and I liked a lot of the southern women writers like Eudora Welty and Flannery O'Connor and Carson McCullers. I also love Steinbeck - Hemingway is okay - as is Fitzgerald.

I don't own a tweed skirt - and I've worn flip-flops for three months now because of my toe nails- although today I wore a pair of clogs - do those count as practical shoes? Vague literary pretensions - huh - as opposed to really specific literary pretensions like yours, you mean?

Well you are in a mood Miss, aren't you?


Clogs are good footwear. I started my working life as a motor engineer, mechanic if you like, they call them technicians today. I used to do a lot of repair work on the thousands of tipper wagons used in the building of the M6 motorway. The wagons in the main were nearly all Thames Traders, Dodge, Commer and Bedfords. The work was hard, dirty and in the main carried out of an evening or night, it was essential to keep them running through the day. I wore clogs for years, they were great to wear and protected the feet, came in handy for kicking tyres off their rims and a host of other benefits. I used to cut up an old tyre and tread the soles using panel pins and glue to fix them to the wooden sole.

Keep wearing the clogs, they will do your feet a lot of good. As for tweed skirts they remind me of Princess Anne and that is a constant reminder of the Miss Jean Brodie concept, strange how things turn around isn't it!

Mathos - I did see what the pope said. I guess I think that he just had the courage (if not stupidity in his position) to say what he really believed. I understand why he may not want to apologize, because it would probably be insincere and maybe he is a true man of god and has the integrity and sense of honesty to want to remain true to himself and what he believes. In a funny kind of way - I'm actually more respecting of him now than I was before.

Except I don't know how he can be pointing fingers at believers of other religions that extoll violence, force, and condemnation. That's one reason I'm not drawn to Catholicism as a religion - besides it's really violent history -I'd find it impossible to follow all those rules, alot of which seem kind of arbitrary and based in mysticism (to me) , and engage in that hierarchical system. I don't think it's a religion that gives its followers a lot of credit for intelligent and independent thought or autonomy for individual action. I do love to read about the saints though - and I love the icons and religious art that have come out of that particular religion.

But I find the reaction of the Muslims extreme. Why are they surprised the pope doesn't approve of their religion? Catholics are not even supposed to marry non-Catholics. I pretty much interpreted that to mean that the pope really thought his religion was the best. How can the Muslims be surprised at that? And then why do they react violently - just to help him prove his point? They should just ignore him - they don't believe in him anyway. That's what I do when I don't believe in someone - I ignore what they say about me- because why give them the satisfaction of an angry reaction which takes a lot of energy-that would mean that you really do care about or believe in what they say.

Sometimes I just think people like to be angry, affronted, nasty and violent. And I think they really enjoy feeling justified in obtaining retribution. And I'm not confining that to Muslims.

If I can make myself believe in the holiness of flies and other insects - I'm thinking of becoming a Buddhist - who loves the idea of Jesus and sings Baptist hymns-collects the sacred art of Catholicism- but who celebrates the holy rites of the Jews (but I'd have to be able to do Passover and Easter, as well as Christmas and Hannukah). That would pretty much cover my favorite religious teachings and leanings.

Did you see the story about Bill Clinton crying as he eulogized Ann Richards? Now she was a good Texan. And see that's what I love about Clinton - such an intelligent man- but still in touch enough with his emotions to be able to shed a tear at the loss of such a wonderful woman. I think that was a good pairing and a fitting honor for her - to have a like-minded and hearted politician such as him eulogize her. If there's a heaven - she'll definitely be there - and I don't even know what religion she was. She did a lot of good work.

Different response Aidan.

Your cloudy at times but I can see through the veil so 'it mun be ok,' to coin an old Lancashire phrase.


I rather think the Pope sees an opportunity here to whip up support for christianity in general, get them back in church and on their knees. he can issue the white aprons complete with red crosses and broad swords at a future date. Religion is embroiled in blood and perhaps he wants to resurrect the crusade outlook with regards to Islam. Time will tell. It was always going to be dodgy though sitting an ex Nazi on the biggest chair in The Vatican, wasn't it.

Buddhism has its merits, I see a lot of good benefits from the true buddhist manner of existence. Wearing a symbol though and clapping your hands to baptist hymns like some kind of Mid Western demented bible basher riding on Billy Grahams shirt flap is not true Buddhism at all.


I am afraid religion walks hand in hand with violence young lady, right from Cain and Abel and still running on all six. Bush wanted a crusade from the word go! He and Blair made a real cock up of the Iranian invasion and Pandoras box is well and truly open.

Islam can justify killing anyone or anything in the name of God and the extremities taken to fulfill the killings are beyond normal comprehension.
I remember in 1989 when the Iranian Ayatollah placed a fatwa on Salman Rushdie for his comments in a recently published book of the time 'The Satanic Verses'

The Pope must have known these guys would be out in the streets whooping and hollering for vengeance, burning effigies of himself and saints, threatening death to everybody who won't kow tow to Islam is so bloody sad isn't it? Not just a normal death either, they like to decapitate helpless prisoners and make videos of such evil.


There is no way the guy can apologise either, apologise for what?

As for Bill Clinton, well what can I say?

I did read in the newspaper today that as recently as l999 in a paper written by Ratzinger but signed by John Paul (who was pope at that time) it was stated that all religions other than the Catholic religion were "defective". And although there was moral outrage at the time, there was never any retraction of the statement - and there was not nearly the reaction that there's been to this statement. I'm sure that's because it was pre 9/11 and the Muslim people were not feeling so persecuted or defensive.

Not all religions. That's a generalization.

From the article I read it said he was in comfortable surroundings with students and didn't expect this to get out or become such a furor, although, I guess he should have known better. But if you read the context in which the words were quoted, it doesn't seem that inflammatory to me - it's just more of the typical, "my religion is better than your religion" stuff. And they were originally uttered by a Byzantine emperor. He was quoting - not making the statement himself.

And it's probably that fact that gives these words, even though they're not his originally, such a nasty patina. And I guess it's that fact also that make me wonder if his intentions were innocent or if he has another agenda. It's kind of a hard issue to get around-but again- if he's a true man of god - maybe we shouldn't tar him with the same brush as an out and out Nazi. I don't know the facts. Was he actually, factually proven to be a Nazi sympathizer? Or is that what I remember reading about his father?


Yes, there's a religion that isn't tainted by anyone's blood. Also the Quaker religion- so you can't just say religion as a whole is tainted by violence and bloodshed.

I just like the songs - they're comforting to me. I'm not a "happy clapper".


See above.
I think so too - he was out to finish what his father started as a matter of pride, I think.

Iran? Aren't we in Iraq? Or was there more news that I'm not aware of?


You're being pretty inflammatory yourself, here.

If he doesn't feel sorry - I guess he shouldn't apologize. What would it mean? But if he wishes he had stated it in a different, less inflammatory way - maybe he could say that.
But I think he believes what he said. Just like most Catholics believe that babies that aren't baptized are condemned - and Baptists believe that Jews who deny Christ are doomed to hell and on and on and on....
When you spell it out like that - it just all looks so crazy.

What can (or would) you say? I'm interested to know what you think. He is one of my favorite presidents. I like his belief system and the way he treated people when he was president. Having said that - I wouldn't want to be his wife - but I'm not judging him on how he behaved as a husband. As an American citizen, I'm only interested in what he achieved for the country - and I think he achieved a lot of good things.

Methinks Becks that you are a teeny-weeny portion out of your depth and spheres of expertise and I sincerely hope you do not pass on to your students these potted opinions on the world situation and The Roman Catholic Church and, at the risk of drawing his ire, the same applies to your friend from the northern wastelands.

You're so condescending Spendius- I guess I should be flattered that you find me only a "teeny-weeny bit out of my depth".

I don't talk about religion with students. That's not my job and I'm sensitive to the fact that religion is a very personal issue. So you have no need to worry about that.

I'm just stating an opinon. What about my opinion makes you think I'm out of my depth?

The simple fact that you are out of your depth on such matters you referred to in the post I commented about.

It's quite normal. I'm out of my depth as well but at least not deep enough to not know.

Yes Iraq not Iran, not yet anyhow.


The oink should realise we are simply expressing thoughts, not exactly known fact, and you would not be teaching your pupils this sort of material in any event. Problems arise with one way thinking and you will note from every thread he visits he is somewhat a cuckoo in an alien nest. A pity, but that is fact.


I don't class Buddhism as a religion in the true sense of the word, it is in my opinion a way of life. The respect for maturity and age, wild life, environmental issues are of prime importance to a true Buddhist. I cannot think of ever hearing the mentioning of deity in this issue.There is actually a book I would recommend to your perusal, written by the abbot of Wat Bovornives Vihara, a large and very famous monastery in the old city of Bangkok. It is a centre of Buddhist study. The author Somdet Phra Nyanasamvara is also Preceptor. You may be able to google the book or buy it via Amazon. Title:- A Guide to Awareness.


In my reference that all religions are embroiled in blood, they are, all being off-shoots of one sort or another from Jew, Christianity and Islam. There be little to choose between all three when it comes to blood letting.


With regards to being a Nazi, neither himself or countless others had much option. I have no idea if he objected to the Nazi party or his father, point of fact is, he was involved within it's doctrine one way or another.

Bill Clinton, quite a guy in my opinion too. We all have our failings, show me the perfect man and even I may be tempted to kneel, but I know he isn't there.

Bill was a politician though, and a randy politician to boot. Nothing wrong with that either, if I was sat in the White House in his position, I would no doubt think I could get away with anything. Bill didn't, he simply ruffled a few feathers by wiling away the odd hour or two with Monica. Brother George W on the other hand is responsible for the spilling of a lot of innocent blood, and there will be much more to come. One thing that did put me off Bill Clinton was once hearing him referring to the late Elvis Presley talking to him, the other guy apparently has a phone link to God, who told him to invade Iraq?

Spendius, an opinion is an opinion. There's no depth measurement required to state an opinion - at least in my opinion. As long as you state the fact that you don't have all the facts and you're willing to own up to that, and listen and maybe learn, it's valid.

Mathos, I do have to say I have a real problem with giving people an out by allowing them to say, "I had no choice", in passively participating in societies such as Nazi Germany - or even segregation in the jim crow south. Both of my parents and the rest of my extended family lived in the south through segregation and passively accepted and participated in it. Knowing them as good people who don't have a racist bone in their bodies, I don't understand how they could not have fought or spoken out against it. They didn't believe it was right, they've told me that, but they didn't actively seek to change it. I don't really understand that- I don't challenge them on it, because it's not my place to, and honestly I don't know what I'd have done if I'd been faced with it. Luckily, because we moved north when I was a baby - I never was. But thank god there were people who were bothered enough by it and brave enough not to stand by and let it continue.

Have you seen the movie, or heard of the young woman, Sophie Scholl? She was a university student along with her brother during the late thirties when Hitler's regime was just beginning to take root in Germany and it became clear that Jews were being targeted for discrimination and extermination. They weren't Jewish, but they and a few other students organized against this discrimination and printed leaflets to inform everyone about what they saw happening. They were caught, imprisoned, had a chance to renounce their cause, refused to, and were ultimately beheaded. When she saw her father for the last time, Sophie apologized to him for bringing disgrace on the family - for getting herself into that situation, etc. and he just told her that he was proud of her and that she'd done the right thing. Everyone always has a choice.
I'm not saying I'd be as brave as that - but I'd want to be.

I appreciate what you are saying and admire your courage. I on the other hand, would see survival as the only objective and sway with the tree, I would take my chances when it fell.

I wouldn't book it down as saying 'I had no choice' I would be quite content in expressing my desire to take my chance to do whatever had to be done, when the opportunity arose.


I once resided for a few weeks in a small town just a few miles to the south of St Louis. The lady who owned the house was perhaps one of the
kindest, nicest people I had ever met, except for her prejudices.
'Mathos,' she enquired, 'Where do you go on your long walks?'

I told her, 'Hell Mathos, you musn't go down there, them **'s will kill you!'

I smiled to myself and went out for a walk, I had met some great coloured guys who shared my interest in motorcycles and I was more than impressed by the Harley's they rode. They were outstanding machines.

The landlady was interested that I was talking to people in the area, I told her, (my sense of humour) that I had invited three guys round for a beer and was that ok? She was really happy, 'Thats great hon, I'll get the house cleaned up, when they coming, whats their names. I told her they would be here for four pm, and they were called, Le-Roy, Rastus and Lilybelle.

She hit the roof, the fear in her face, it was mind blowing, she flew into a rage, was yelling down the phone to someone with two 'German Shepherds' to get down there fast as the **'s were invading.

Now, I could not believe, what I was witnessing with my own two eyes, it was like insanity gone madder, she had by now locked the doors, moved furniture to the doors and had a Saturday Night Special loaded in her hand. I remain convinced to this day, that had a coloured person walked any where near her house, she would have used the gun.

She probably would have.

Mathos - just a little aside here. Americans who do not live in the Uk are probably not aware that "couloured" as a descriptive term for black people is still used here, and is not thought to be derogatory in any way.
I say that because in America "colored" is not a term that is deemed acceptable to be used when talking to or about a black person or other "person of color". The acceptable terms in the US are "black", "African-American", or "person of color" - which denotes a member of a race that is in the minority in the US - (such as Latinos, etc.).
When you say colored in the US - it brings us all back to the whole caste system of segregation in which people were devalued to varying extents by the amount or fraction of minority heredity they were forced to claim.

I'm just telling you this because there are a lot of Americans on this forum who might think you've lost your mind using the term "colored" in this day and age, and I just want them to know - you're not necessarily trying to be racist - there are many non-racist folks here who use the term colored benignly - as a remnant of Britain's colonial past.
But I just want you to know - I got your message. You couldn't have used names that were any more stereotypical- Leroy, Rastus and Lillybelle? Give me a break... Sometimes I think you have a hard heart and a very sad soul...

And as the mother of two children whom I guess you'd considered to be "colored" - I just want you to know your sneaky little passive agressive bullshitting is offensive- and if you give a **** about the feelings of certain people who may be reading this - you'll take this stuff seriously-or you can laugh it off and "sway with the tree", as you say. I'm sincerely interested to see which option you'll choose.

Well you say its neither and I say its neither.

I have been aware for some years that there is a tremendous difference in the American and English view points on colour related matters. I may, unknowingly have caused concern to you Aidan and possibly others, you certainly appear quite irate at me, and my post was written with no intention of creating ill feeling.

I have several coloured friends and associates, the term colour is used without let or hindrance in our quarters and I have never heard it be so utterly condemned as you are making it. Perhaps any other American reading this would advise me here if my post could be classed as racist in their opinion.

After all you have previous conviction for twisting the issues on here.

Mathos - I told you it wasn't the use of the word colored that was an issue. I said I knew that it was commonly used here (in the UK) without any racist intent attached.

I wonder at your use of the names Leroy and Rastus and Lillybelle. If you tell me those were truly their names - I guess I'll believe you. But I have to say - at the very least, I'd be skeptical about a black person naming their child Rastus. Isn't that from the Brer Rabbit stories? You know with the tar babies, etc...

I've never been anything but honest and above board on here. I've not twisted anything. What the hell are you talking about convicted - I didn't even know I was arrested or put on trial.

You're free to think whatever you want - I'm just telling you what I think. But don't let that bother you.

I can't tell you those were truly their names, I made the names up for the benefit of the landlady, personally again, I see nothing derogatory in these names, it is how we refer to the Irish as Micks, The Scots as Jock, The Welshman as Taffy, The German is Fritz etc etc.

You can push the boat out too far in your requests for restrictions Aidan, I know several coloured people who are amazed at some of the legislation which is arrived at supposedly for their benefit, when in fact it is nought but a thorn in their side.


You came on pretty venomous towards me and manufactured a scenario of falsity for your own personal satisfaction at feeling justified on a trumped up racial allegation against me. I don't know why Aidan, but then again I am not surprised, you have a habit of strange actions at times.

Right Mathos - I guess I should have understood that you come from a different time and space than I do. It's like the situation I had with my grandmother.
When I was little, and we'd go visit her in Texas - I'd hear her and all my other relatives saying N*** this and N*** that. . My grandmother lived smack in the middle of the city in San Antonio (when they had moved in the forties from their farm in the country- it had been on the outskirts, but you know how cities grow up and slowly envelope the outlying areas). Anyway, it was this burning hot day and my dad said, "I'll take all you kids down to the pool to go swimming." And my grandmother said, "Which pool- the one out at Breckenridge?"
And my father said, "No, the one right down the street."
My grandmother gets this funny look on her face and she says, "E., you're not taking my grandkids in that pool - it's full of n*** and Mexicans."
My father just looked at her steadily and said, "You guys go get your bathing suits on - we're going swimming." And we went.
Well, he didn't say anything else about it. But later that summer, home in NJ, the little girl across the street (who was black - whose parents both happened to be lawyers by the way who commuted to Manhattan everyday with my father - this was probably about l969) got on my nerves and I called her a N****. Her father told my father and he whipped my butt - and I mean with a belt. I just looked at him - I was about five years old and I said, "But Grandma says it all the time." He then explained to me how and why Grandma was wrong.
Ironically enough - about twenty years later I married a black man. My grandmother didn't come to my wedding (although a lot of my uncles did - I was proud of them) and she never spoke to me again- and we had been close- corresponding all through my college years, etc. About five years later I was pregnant with my son and she was dying of pancreatic cancer. My sisters and I went down to Texas to see her before she died. She spoke to all of them - but not to me. Gave them all hugs - but didn't touch me. She died about three months later.
I wrote her the whole time and called her and tried to speak to her. I did that because of what my father said to me. I had told him that my instinct was to say -"Forget her - she's racist and full of hate and beyond redemption." But he said, "No, if you do that you'll never forgive yourself. No matter how she treats you - you have to treat her with love so you can have peace in your heart about the whole situation." He was right. After she died I was so happy I hadn't been as nasty to her as she'd been to me. I'm just sorry she went to her death with that hate in her heart.

So see, Mathos - I do have some understanding that different people are coming from different places. I do think that what you've described doing in your post is racist but, hey, who am I to judge? Just my opinion...

If my father had "whipped my butt" with a belt when I was 3ft tall I would have waited until I was as big as him and kicked his head in.

Personally, Aidan you have mentioned this regular thrashing you received from your father on more than one occasion. It can't have done you any good. didn't you once state it was a regular event after church service on a Sunday morning?

It is gross abuse you underwent there, you were not on your own though, most children were knocked about a great deal by their parents, schoolteachers, and probably older brothers and sisters who thought it was the norm.


Your still feeling strongly about your Grandmother as well!


Would you change anything if you could turn the clock back?


I am sorry you consider my writing above to be racist in your opinion, a coloured associate of mine considered it mere trivia, not racist at all in his opinion. He has mentioned in the past though how glad he is that he was born in the UK and not in America. The post has been aired for some considerable hours now, there are no complaints from others and it has received about 100 hits since I entered the same.


On a personal basis, and I state personal, I found your reaction extremely offensive in your usual zest of sensationalism, which rears its ugly head from time to time and has a tendency to reduce you to a common ranting dockyard fish-woman. Do you feel more at home in this status?


You are fully entitled to both judgement and opinion, however, a more subtle approach would be seen as befitting an American lady being afforded the sanctity of our nation.


On face value, I am more convinced than ever that you are in dire need of professional assistance.

Spendius - I consider my father to be one of my heroes. He never abused me - and everytime he spanked me, I understood why and probably agreed that I deserved it. Besides the fact that I'll never be as big as my father - he's 6'3 and weighs a little over 200 pounds- and he's athletic. I couldn't kick his head in even if I wanted to - and I've never wanted to do anything but thank him for the wonderful life he gave me and the love and guidance he continues to extend to me.

If I wished for anything to change it would be that I wish my grandmother had been able to see past her racist attitudes. But she wasn't - and I've forgiven her. I wouldn't change anything else about my life. I think I've been very lucky in terms of family, friends, loved ones, experiences, etc.

Noone ever comments on this thread. I think Bawb is the only one who has visited since I've been on it. Where has he gone by the way? And my opinion is not dependent on the agreement of anyone else. My views and opinions don't "sway with the trees"- we're obviously different in that regard Mathos. You seem to take great offense at any criticism directed at yourself, but don't feel badly about offending anyone else. If you are offended by anything I said, we're even. Because I was offended by what you said- and I don't care if anyone else agrees with me or not.

In terms of me needing professional help - whatever Mathos. But again, maybe you should look in the mirror.