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Estate Taxation and Social Responsibility

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Apr, 2006 08:10 pm
jpinM, The reality of today's world for the younger generation is simply that more older children are depending on their parents for financial assistance. If not financial support, it's taking care of grandchildren while both parents work.

Income for professionals are more stagnant today than our generation; a four year degree doesn't ensure financial security. It's a combination of outsourcing and salaries not keeping up with inflation. I really feel for you guys; it's really tough to even consider marriage today for most young people.

Our generation had it good compared to the new graduates of today.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Apr, 2006 08:02 am
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
Sorry Joe, to many conversations to keep up.

I understand, and appreciate your response. You've been rather busy on this thread.

jpinMilwaukee wrote:
I try not to base my opinions on fair or unfair. I simply believe that those that work, within the framework of the law, to improve their outcome should be entitled to the outcome in which their work has brought them. If that means I think taxing them more is unfair and taxing them the same is fair then so be it, but I don't see how that proves anything.

Well, I don't quite understand how your first sentence squares with your last sentence. If you believe that people are entitled to the increased income that they make, as a result of their own efforts, then you are most definitely basing your position on some notion of "fairness" or "equity" or "justice" (since, presumably, doing the opposite would be "unfair" or "inequitable" or "unjust"). I'm not sure why you don't want to call it that, but your position is inexplicable under any other interpretation. Given that, the question really becomes: what is it about your notion of "fairness" that makes progressive taxation "unfair?"
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Apr, 2006 08:19 am
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
Do you think this trend has reversed recently or will in the near future?


That would depend on what one means by "near future." I don't say that to avoid answering your question, though. So, as tedious as it may be, i'm going to delve into history again.

Before the 15th century, the Dutch were rather poor, but they worked hard, and they took risks others did not take--specifically, wrestling land from the North Sea to feed themselves, and going into the North Sea to fish. Fishing may not seem like big money, but it was. The Dutch braved the roughest seas in which anyone then sailed to bring in the fish which all Europe ate in the springtime. In September, Europeans traditionally slaughtered all the livestock which they were not going to keep for breeding, reducing the amount of fodder they needed to feed their livestock over winter. They salted meat and made sausages (after horrendous, gluttonous feasts, such as Oktoberfest), and lived on that meat until late winter. By then, the meat was gone, and Lent began. The idea of eating no meat in late winter in spring (a provision of the liturgical season of Lent) was a no brainer--there was little to no meat left. Therefore, Europe ate fish. The Dutch sold it to them, and gradually made themselves rich.

At that time, the only great trading coster in Europe was the Hanseatic League, a loose confederation of mercantile cities in northern Germany, trading in the Baltic. Those people traded with other cities in the league, and cities which would buy their goods. The Dutch, as they became wealthy, and expert in deep sea sailing, began to compete with them for the carrying trade. The carrying trade means that you don't transport your own goods for sale, you transport someone elses. The Dutch decided that they would not pay a premium to Hansa for the Russian grain and wood and canvas they needed, but go get it themselves. They then realized they could make good money transporting goods which others produced, to sell to yet others who wanted them. The Dutch quickly outstripped the Hanseatic League, because Hansa weren't "blue water sailors," but the Dutch were. They could carry goods to any part of Europe quickly and cheaply, and profit on the margin for goods they had not themselves produced.

This they did by inventing credit instruments, and joint-stock companies. Lombard bankers and the Fuggers of Germany had long used letters of credit to extend their banking interests, but the Dutch now used it to finance ship-building (and they built the best ships) and to provide the capital to buy goods sold in one place, which could be sold at a handsome profit to someone else. They quickly outstripped all the competition, and they continued to expand, financing the expansion with credit instruments and joint-stock companies. The stock exchange at Amsterdam became the world economic powerhouse in the 17th century. Even though they fought an 84-year-long war of independence from Spain (i won't go into why Spain once "owned" Holland), they still managed to make good money and pay all of their own expenses. Eventually they fought for their very survival against the French for more than a century. It had the effect of squandering all of their surplus, but they were still wealthy and prosperous when the armies of the French Revolution finally overran them late in the 18th century. Their credit still remained extremely good until that time, because their expertise at sea assured that Dutch banks and Dutch investors would always be able to pay their debts. The credit structure of Holland created the prosperity there needed to support the system.

Long before the French revolutionaries overran them, though, the English had taken over the carrying trade, and made themselves the master of the world's oceans. In England, all merchants in "the City" (that part of London which was anciently within the city walls and which to this day is the heart of English finance) paid "ship money," a volutary tax which supported the Royal Navy, which protected their commerce. Not only did the merchants of the City follow the Dutch practice of using credit instruments to finance business, they invented the modern insurance industry to indemnify overseas shipping. When Vasco Da Gama sailed from Portugal to India in the 16th century, he lost three of his four ships. The one small ship which did make it back to Portugal, though, not only brought back enough valuable silk, gem stones and spices to pay for the expedition--it returned the original investment at 30 to 1. Lessons such as that were not lost on the Dutch and the English, and insurance companies allowed someone to get his money back if a ship failed to return. If a ship did return, he would be fabulously rich, literally overnight. (And hence, the origin of the wistful expression "when my ship comes in.")

In 1660, there were about 4000 merchant ships in the world, and more than half were Dutch. If you look just at oceanic shipping, the Dutch owned 80% of the merchant fleet--most other European shippping was coastal. By 1760, the English alone had more than 4000 oceanic merchant ships at sea. In England, the government stepped in to help finance the prosperity. They bought foreign bonds (such as the Dutch offered) and they issued bonds of their own. The "Consols," the consolidated bonds which the English government sold, gave a guaranteed return (usually 3% or 4%) which was not large, but was sure. If you had 10,000 pounds and a drunkard for a son, you could buy consols and settle the interest on him. He'd never be rich, but he'd reliably get the money he needed to live on. By 1760, an estate of 10,000 pounds from a merchant family could be considered modest--prospective brides were not considered a really good match unless the dowery were an estate of 50,000 pounds or more. In 1760, a working class family in London of a man and a wife with four children and a live-in serving girl could live on less than 100 pounds per annum--someone whose income was 1500 pounds per annum from the consols could live very well indeed.

Once again, the credit structure was based in England, and depended upon the strength of English commerce. The government never had to pay off the bonds, they simply had to pay the financing to the bond holders, those who invested in the "consols." That money then circulated within the economy. The economy continued to expand, and the credit structure remained sound. With the rise of Napoleon, and his implementation of the "continental system," the growth of the English economy stalled. Although they could no longer trade (except by smuggling) with the continent, the French invasion of Spain destroyed the overseas Spanish empire, and the English were able to make up some of the loss in trade by trading with Central and South America. Still, their economic growth stagnated, and the national debt grew. After the fall of Napoleon, though, European nations came to the City to find investment capital, and the English were able to "globalize" their credit system, with much of the return circulating in their own economy.

America's story was much the same. Although the English and French were the premier manufacturing nations, they also invested in the United States, and the American economy was a powerhouse which relied upon agricultural export, vast amounts of cheap or even free land, and a vigorous oceanic trade. American ships appeared in all the world's seas, and competed effectively with the English and the French. Eventually, of course, we began to compete industrially. One of the representatives of the English at the Paris Peace Conference in 1919 was John Maynard Keynes, and he pouted a good deal because he was not treated as well as he thought he should be. He denounced the Conference and its decisions, and as a brilliant mathematician, he made allegations about the economic consequences of the settlement. He became the world's first internationally famous economist, and his fiscal interventionist policies became the popular economic theories of the 20th century. Based (rather loosely) on Keynesian economic theory, the concept of deficit spending became popular as a solution to depressions and recessions. The first application was in the brief recession in England in the 1920s. Americans were sufficiently impressed that Franklin Roosevelt adopted the policy to get the United States out of the Great Depression.

The effort only partial succeeded. Americans were able to go back to work, and a modest consumer economy was born. But the economy continued to stagnate, because the law of diminishing returns kicked in with a vengeance. Government deficit spending stimulated economic growth, but the revenues from it did not repay the expenditures, and the national debt grew. The Second World War, however, provided the necessary stimulus for a fantastic growth in manufacturing and employment. A shattered world economy after the war gave the United States the opportunity to become the industrial giant we like to think ourselves to be, and no one noticed that Keynesian "macroeconomic theory" had actually been proven less than a spectacular solution on a large scale. In recent decades, people have come to realize that massive deficit spending can actually depress an economy because it reduces the capital available for domestic investment. Simply (and simplistically) put, when banks are lending money to the government (buying treasury notes), they have less capital available for venture capitalism. The only plausible cure is to reduce government spending while maintaining or increasing taxation. Eventually, the government has to manage its indebtedness just as individuals need to do.

Both the policies of Reagan and Bush fly in the face of this sort of fiscal responsibility. Both administrations have cut taxes and increased spending. There is a short-term drug-like effect which stimulates investment, but the export of jobs and industries since the Reagan era means that the money is not necessarily circulating within our economy again. As i mentioned in the other thread, new capital just as likely leads capitalists to build a new plant in Indonesia, and to open a call center in Bombay. The current administration has played a dangerous game. Rather than borrowing through treasury note issues and practicing deficit spending (although both are still done on a large scale), they have borrowed from China. China has no vested interest in our economy beyond selling cheap goods here, and they can actually sell more as Americans become less affluent. We have an astronomical national debt, and much of it is now owed to China.

So, if "near future" means the next few decades, no, i don't think we'll suffer for it in the near future. If "near future" means the next century or so, then things are a lot more dicey. Without doing something both to reduce government endebtedness, and to staunch the bleeding of jobs and capital in this nation, things might no look so good for your children or grandchildren. I'm not trying to be predictive here, but i am striking a cautionary note.
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Apr, 2006 09:01 am
joefromchicago wrote:
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
I try not to base my opinions on fair or unfair. I simply believe that those that work, within the framework of the law, to improve their outcome should be entitled to the outcome in which their work has brought them. If that means I think taxing them more is unfair and taxing them the same is fair then so be it, but I don't see how that proves anything.

Well, I don't quite understand how your first sentence squares with your last sentence. If you believe that people are entitled to the increased income that they make, as a result of their own efforts, then you are most definitely basing your position on some notion of "fairness" or "equity" or "justice" (since, presumably, doing the opposite would be "unfair" or "inequitable" or "unjust"). I'm not sure why you don't want to call it that, but your position is inexplicable under any other interpretation. Given that, the question really becomes: what is it about your notion of "fairness" that makes progressive taxation "unfair?"


What I was trying to articulate was it isn't so much an issue of "fairness" to me, but rather the reward for a persons work, insight, inventiveness, risk-taking, investment, whatever, and their right to that reward just as the guy working in his factory has a right to his wage. My last sentence was meant to imply that this would undoubtedly be construed as a fair/unfair issue.

I am not implying that the factory worker doesn't work hard and doesn't deserve just as much of his income as the guy that owns the factory, but the factory owner has inherent risks involved with running/opening a business that the factory worker does not have. If a resturn on his investment comes back 10 fold it was because he ran his business in a manner that a.) provides good/services that consumers want b.) provides jobs c.) is paying out payroll, payroll taxes, property taxes, buying supplies, etc. and still has enough money coming in to make a profit off of it.

Why should he have to pay more taxes than the guy who works in his factory? He has just as much right to his income as the guy who works for him.

I know Cyc doesn't want to start a discussion of government spending, but the fact is that all to often the default answer is to raise taxes. The heart of the matter is wasteful and inefficient government spending. I feel that the money is used more efficiently in the market... not only being reinvested and providing more opportunities to more people, but also being funneled to private charities that manage their resources better than a washinton bureaucrat would ever imagine.

In the modest proposal thread, Cyc brought up Paris Hilton as an example of someone who just inherited her fame/fortune. After a quick search at Wikipedia I found that the Hilton fortune does a lot more than simply fund slutty drunken grandaughters like Paris. I won't go into the same detail here but the post is here if you want to read more.

It has been estimated that Bill Gates has donated over half of his fortune to various philanthropic endeavors including (from wikipedia):

Quote:
The foundation's grants have provided funds for college scholarships for under-represented minorities, AIDS prevention, diseases prevalent in third world countries, and other causes. In 2000, the Gates Foundation endowed the University of Cambridge with $210 million for the Gates Cambridge Scholarships. The Foundation has also pledged over $7 billion to its various causes, including $1 billion to the United Negro College Fund; and as of 2005, had an estimated endowment of $29.0 billion.


Certainly not all rich people are this generous with their fortunes, but to say that the money is just sitting there festering in vaults and could be better used in the governments hands, seems to me, to be of the wrong opinion. I'm not suggesting you are of that opinion, just pointing out that although I think these people have as much a right to their fortune, the larger issue is, I feel, that the money is already being used in a more efficient manner than government could ever do with it and wasteful government spending.
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Apr, 2006 09:22 am
Set,

It souds to me like all of these things point to a more protectionist style government, but doubt that a protective system is something you would advocate. If jobs and money going overseas is the problem then protective system would help deter our money and jobs from being exported. However, this seems to be contrary to the idea of equality among nations.

I do feel that tax cuts are a step in the right direction. More money for the masses is a good thing. More money to save, spend and invest benefits the economy and the people. I do agree that government spending absolutely has to stop. As I stated in the post above, I feel that this is the true heart of the matter.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Apr, 2006 09:49 am
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
What I was trying to articulate was it isn't so much an issue of "fairness" to me, but rather the reward for a persons work, insight, inventiveness, risk-taking, investment, whatever, and their right to that reward just as the guy working in his factory has a right to his wage. My last sentence was meant to imply that this would undoubtedly be construed as a fair/unfair issue.

Probably because it really is a fair/unfair issue.

jpinMilwaukee wrote:
Why should he have to pay more taxes than the guy who works in his factory? He has just as much right to his income as the guy who works for him.

Well, if you're asking why the factory owner has to pay more than the factory worker, the answer is obvious: he has more income. Now, if instead you're asking why the owner has to pay at a higher rate than the worker, I would respond: why not? My guess is that you would respond that it is not fair to tax the owner at a higher rate than the worker. But then that all goes back to your definition of "fairness," which you have yet to reveal.

Flat tax advocates have long contended that progressive taxation is "unfair," and that the only "fair" tax is one that taxes everyone at the same rate. So the pauper as well as the plutocrat would have their income taxed at one, uniform level. The annoying thing, though, is that the flat-taxers also haven't revealed why they think progressive taxation is "unfair." We don't believe uniformity in treatment is fair in other contexts (e.g. some of the same people who want flat taxes also want means testing of Social Security), so why is it the only "fair" method of taxation?

jpinMilwaukee wrote:
I know Cyc doesn't want to start a discussion of government spending, but the fact is that all to often the default answer is to raise taxes. The heart of the matter is wasteful and inefficient government spending. I feel that the money is used more efficiently in the market... not only being reinvested and providing more opportunities to more people, but also being funneled to private charities that manage their resources better than a washinton bureaucrat would ever imagine.

Government spending is irrelevant to this discussion. Whether the government spends a little or spends too much, that doesn't affect the fairness or unfairness of progressive income taxes.

jpinMilwaukee wrote:
In the modest proposal thread, Cyc brought up Paris Hilton as an example of someone who just inherited her fame/fortune. After a quick search at Wikipedia I found that the Hilton fortune does a lot more than simply fund slutty drunken grandaughters like Paris. I won't go into the same detail here but the post is here if you want to read more.

No, I don't want to read it, because the benevolence of the rich is just as irrelevant to this discussion as the profligacy of the government. It matters not whether the rich lavishly bestow their money on worthy causes or on hookers and blow, that has no bearing on the question of whether progressive taxes are fair.

jpinMilwaukee wrote:
It has been estimated that Bill Gates has donated over half of his fortune to various philanthropic endeavors including (from wikipedia):

Quote:
The foundation's grants have provided funds for college scholarships for under-represented minorities, AIDS prevention, diseases prevalent in third world countries, and other causes. In 2000, the Gates Foundation endowed the University of Cambridge with $210 million for the Gates Cambridge Scholarships. The Foundation has also pledged over $7 billion to its various causes, including $1 billion to the United Negro College Fund; and as of 2005, had an estimated endowment of $29.0 billion.

Bully for him.

jpinMilwaukee wrote:
Certainly not all rich people are this generous with their fortunes, but to say that the money is just sitting there festering in vaults and could be better used in the governments hands, seems to me, to be of the wrong opinion. I'm not suggesting you are of that opinion, just pointing out that although I think these people have as much a right to their fortune, the larger issue is, I feel, that the money is already being used in a more efficient manner than government could ever do with it and wasteful government spending.

If you genuinely believe that people, left to spend the money that would otherwise go to the government in the form of taxes, would spend it in ways that, on the whole, would conduce more to the advantage of society than would the expenditure of that money by the government, then I don't understand why you aren't in favor of eliminating all taxes.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Apr, 2006 09:56 am
I don't want to diver the thread any further with this discussion, JP, because it ought properly to be in the "ur-thread." No, i don't believe in protectionism, and, as for tax cuts, i once again object to the theory of "trickle-down" for the reasons i've already explained.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Apr, 2006 09:59 am
Wow, so much written to respond to. Thank you all for your input on the thread; but I think I have found some info that will lay to rest many of the arguments against the estate tax, permanently.

To begin, let me re-iterate what I said earlier: the fight against the Estate Tax is nothing more than a move by the super-rich to protect their hereditary fortunes. Any talk about family farms and small businesses, as I said earlier, is 100% bullsh*t.

Imagine my surprise, when I see this today:

Quote:
Public Citizen and United for a Fair Economy Expose Stealth Campaign of Super-Wealthy to Repeal Federal Estate Tax

Report Identifies 18 Families Behind Multimillion-Dollar Deceptive Lobbying Campaign

WASHINGTON, D.C. - The multimillion-dollar lobbying effort to repeal the federal estate tax has been aggressively led by 18 super-wealthy families, according to a report released today by Public Citizen and United for a Fair Economy at a press conference in Washington, D.C. The report details for the first time the vast money, influence and deceptive marketing techniques behind the rhetoric in the campaign to repeal the tax.

It reveals how 18 families worth a total of $185.5 billion have financed and coordinated a 10-year effort to repeal the estate tax, a move that would collectively net them a windfall of $71.6 billion.

The report profiles the families and their businesses, which include the families behind Wal-Mart, Gallo wine, Campbell's soup, and Mars Inc., maker of M&Ms. Collectively, the list includes the first- and third-largest privately held companies in the United States, the richest family in Alabama and the world's largest retailer.

These families have sought to keep their activities anonymous by using associations to represent them and by forming a massive coalition of business and trade associations dedicated to pushing for estate tax repeal. The report details the groups they have hidden behind - the trade associations they have used, the lobbyists they have hired, and the anti-estate tax political action committees, 527s and organizations to which they have donated heavily.

In a massive public relations campaign, the families have also misled the country by giving the mistaken impression that the estate tax affects most Americans. In particular, they have used small businesses and family farms as poster children for repeal, saying that the estate tax destroys both of these groups. But just more than one-fourth of one percent of all estates will owe any estate taxes in 2006. And the American Farm Bureau, a member of the anti-estate tax coalition, was unable when asked by The New York Times to cite a single example of a family being forced to sell its farm because of estate tax liability.

"This report exposes one of the biggest con jobs in recent history," said Joan Claybrook, president of Public Citizen. "This long-running, secretive campaign funded by some of the country's wealthiest families has relied on deception to bamboozle the public not only about who must pay the estate tax, but about how repealing it will affect the country."

Said Lee Farris, senior organizer for estate tax policy at UFE, "It's time for the majority of Americans who support the estate tax to speak out, and not let a handful of wealthy families sway Congress to twist the tax laws for their own benefit. Polls now show that most Americans support this tax and the revenue it yields to pay for vital services, especially given our nation's huge deficit."

While they extol the hard work of individual farmers and small businesses, most of the 18 families have been wealthy for generations; only five still include the people who first earned the family fortune. Members of the families are far less likely than most Americans to have paid taxes on their wealth; to a large extent, that wealth lies in assets that have appreciated but, unlike paychecks, have never been taxed.

These super-rich families have spent millions in personal wealth and used their companies' resources and lobbying power in repeated attempts to influence members of Congress to repeal the tax. They have financed groups who have launched multimillion-dollar attack ads against Republican and Democratic senators alike, including former Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle (D-S.D.) and Sens. Max Baucus (D-Mont.), Olympia Snow (R-Maine), Blanche Lincoln (D-Ark.), Mark Pryor (D-Ark.), Lincoln Chaffee (R-R.I.) and Kent Conrad (D-N.D.).

The stakes of the campaign are great, not only for the super-wealthy families, but for the public. If the families' repeal bid succeeds, it will cost the U.S. Treasury a trillion dollars in the first decade - roughly what it would cost to provide health insurance for every uninsured person in the United States.

"The estate tax should be regarded as just paying back to the country for all the wonderful things it's made possible for the people who have that wealth," said Bill Gates Sr. in an audio statement played at the press conference. "I don't think there's any great societal goal being served by inherited wealth. And certainly there's no sensible argument that I can think of for insisting on being able to pass the last penny of $100 million on to your three kids."

Added Elizabeth Letzler, an investment manager from New York who will be subject to the estate tax and who spoke at the press conference, "The current estate tax structure should permit any wealthy household to pass on a legacy of financial security, education and family heirlooms to the next generations." She challenged the families showcased in the report: "Do something spectacular during your life-time investing in the social welfare and well-being of the children and grandchildren at the bottom of the pyramid." Her daughter Stephanie, also in attendance, said, "If keeping the estate tax means a step closer to a debt-free treasury, a step closer to improved health care, Social Security, education, and every other program that makes me proud to be an American, show me where to sign the check."

Paul Newman, actor and founder of Newman's Own food company, agreed in a separate statement: "For those of us lucky enough to be born in this country and to have flourished here, the estate tax is a reasonable and appropriate way to return something to the common good. I'm proud to be among those supporting preservation of this tax, which is one of the fairest taxes we have."

###

To read the statement by Public Citizen President Joan Claybrook, click here.

To read the report, click here.

To hear the audio statement of Bill Gates Sr., click here.


How can there be any further argument on this issue? It is quite clear that the repeal of the estate tax is nothing more than an effort by the super-rich to increase the size of their fortunes at the expense of the American taxpayers' interests.

Cheers to all, and thanks for discussing the issue.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Apr, 2006 10:06 am
Cyclo, That our legislators can be bought to influence laws in this country is the issue that must be addressed. They are all scums that must be replaced during the next elections.
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Apr, 2006 10:25 am
joefromchicago wrote:

If you genuinely believe that people, left to spend the money that would otherwise go to the government in the form of taxes, would spend it in ways that, on the whole, would conduce more to the advantage of society than would the expenditure of that money by the government, then I don't understand why you aren't in favor of eliminating all taxes.


Because some taxes are necessary to pay for defense, public works, police, firemen, etc... but you already knew that. It is the wasteful earmark spending that needs to stop instead of rasing taxes to pay for more useless crap. A recent news story in Mlwaukee is the development of a public works facility that lies inbetween 2 steep hills. They are trying to get $600,000 in federal funds to build an elevator from the top of one hill to the bottom where the faclity is. their reasoning is it the hill will cause undue stress to employees that don't have vehicles.

That is $600,000 of our money that is paying for poor public planning and will only benefit a very very very small amount of people. That is one instance in one city in one state. Add up all the cities in al the states that have worthless pet projects like this and it is no wonder people are rushng to the rich in order to "make things fair."

As far as the rest of your post... I have explained myself to the best of my ability. Government spending does play a part in this discussion because the sole reason for taxes is so that government has money to spend... I would certainly hope you care about what that money is being spent on. If all you are going to keep saying "why not?", I see no further reason to discuss the issue further as none of my answers seem to be good enough.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Apr, 2006 10:50 am
Quote:
Government spending does play a part in this discussion because the sole reason for taxes is so that government has money to spend... I would certainly hope you care about what that money is being spent on.


No, it doesn't play a part. It is a diversion from the topic. What the monies are spent on is immaterial to the question of how the tax code should be set up.

Quote:
If all you are going to keep saying "why not?", I see no further reason to discuss the issue further as none of my answers seem to be good enough.


It isn't that your answers aren't good enough, it's that they don't answer the question: why is it unfair to tax the rich at a higher rate than the poor?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Apr, 2006 11:19 am
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
Because some taxes are necessary to pay for defense, public works, police, firemen, etc... but you already knew that.

You don't think civic-minded individuals would freely contribute to those projects and services? Perhaps the rich aren't as benevolent as you suggest.

jpinMilwaukee wrote:
It is the wasteful earmark spending that needs to stop instead of rasing taxes to pay for more useless crap. A recent news story in Mlwaukee is the development of a public works facility that lies inbetween 2 steep hills. They are trying to get $600,000 in federal funds to build an elevator from the top of one hill to the bottom where the faclity is. their reasoning is it the hill will cause undue stress to employees that don't have vehicles.

That is $600,000 of our money that is paying for poor public planning and will only benefit a very very very small amount of people. That is one instance in one city in one state. Add up all the cities in al the states that have worthless pet projects like this and it is no wonder people are rushng to the rich in order to "make things fair."

Depends on what you mean by "fair."

jpinMilwaukee wrote:
As far as the rest of your post... I have explained myself to the best of my ability. Government spending does play a part in this discussion because the sole reason for taxes is so that government has money to spend... I would certainly hope you care about what that money is being spent on.

I certainly care, but that's not an issue regarding taxation, that's an issue regarding expenditures. Those are two different things. We could spend the funds derived from a stupid tax sensibly, just as we could spend the funds derived from a sensible tax stupidly. The source of the funds is not typically relevant to the object of their expenditure.

jpinMilwaukee wrote:
If all you are going to keep saying "why not?", I see no further reason to discuss the issue further as none of my answers seem to be good enough.

It is quite evident that your answers aren't good enough for me. My interest now is to find out why they're still good enough for you.
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Apr, 2006 12:23 pm
joefromchicago wrote:

It is quite evident that your answers aren't good enough for me. My interest now is to find out why they're still good enough for you.


Like i said, I have given my answers and have been offered no rebuttal other than "why not" in return. They are still good enough for me because I have seen nothing from you, or any other tax the rich proponent, that would change my mind. The closest thing to an effectual argument is that it would not really lower their quality of life in any significant degree. I have seen nothing about how their tax dollars would actually go to solving any of societies ills. Your, and cycs, continued denial of government spending not being a taxing issue doesn't make it any less true.

Quote:
You don't think civic-minded individuals would freely contribute to those projects and services? Perhaps the rich aren't as benevolent as you suggest.


This argument is laughable. Public needs such as roads, police, firemen, etc. are used by everyone and everyones tax dollar responsibilites. I have never stated otherwise, in spite of your continued childish attempts to get me to try to repeal all taxes. You are the one suggesting that the rich, for whatever reason, owe more to society then the rest of us so don't try to pin that down on me.
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Apr, 2006 12:48 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
No, it doesn't play a part. It is a diversion from the topic. What the monies are spent on is immaterial to the question of how the tax code should be set up.


Reasoning like that is why government spending is out of control and you are fine paying as much in taxes as you do.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Apr, 2006 12:57 pm
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
Like i said, I have given my answers and have been offered no rebuttal other than "why not" in return.

You talk as if "why not" is a particularly difficult question to answer. For anyone with even a partially thought-out position, though, it should be remarkably easy to answer "why not." In your case, however, you can't seem to formulate a response to the question: why isn't progressive taxation fair? And it's not that you can't formulate a satisfactory response, it's that you can't formulate any response.

jpinMilwaukee wrote:
They are still good enough for me because I have seen nothing from you, or any other tax the rich proponent, that would change my mind. The closest thing to an effectual argument is that it would not really lower their quality of life in any significant degree. I have seen nothing about how their tax dollars would actually go to solving any of societies ills. Your, and cycs, continued denial of government spending not being a taxing issue doesn't make it any less true.

Progressive income taxes are fair because the people who are taxed at the highest rates are the ones who get the most benefit from the system that they support with their tax dollars.

jpinMilwaukee wrote:
This argument is laughable. Public needs such as roads, police, firemen, etc. are used by everyone and everyones tax dollar responsibilites. I have never stated otherwise, in spite of your continued childish attempts to get me to try to repeal all taxes. You are the one suggesting that the rich, for whatever reason, owe more to society then the rest of us so don't try to pin that down on me.

I have never suggested that the rich owe more to society than the rest of us. I would argue, however, that the rich get more from society, and so it is equitable to ask them to pay for commensurately more for it.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Apr, 2006 12:57 pm
This is ridiculous, JP. You are trying to muddy the waters of the conversation by injecting yet another variable to the discussion.

Can't we keep the discussion to the topic of whether or not it is valid to tax the estates of the Rich, without interjecting our personal opinions as to the efficiency of the way the monies are being spent?

Are you claiming that it is no longer valid to ever raise taxes, because the government will just waste them anyways? Or that we can't raise taxes until the waste has been cleaned up? Because those are both seperate arguments to the question of whether or not the Estate tax is a valid and correct tax.

Here, I'll even help you out some: IF the monies were spent more efficiently (ie less waste) would you agree that the Estate Tax should exist?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Apr, 2006 01:19 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
This is ridiculous, JP. You are trying to muddy the waters of the conversation by injecting yet another variable to the discussion.

Can't we keep the discussion to the topic of whether or not it is valid to tax the estates of the Rich, without interjecting our personal opinions as to the efficiency of the way the monies are being spent?


Apparently not considering I don't think they are mutually exclusive ideas.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Are you claiming that it is no longer valid to ever raise taxes, because the government will just waste them anyways?


I am claiming no such thing and have not even come close to claiming such an idea. If government spent what money they had efficiently and had valid reason for increasing taxes, then I would be more than happy to give my share of that increase. As things are now, the default reaction is to raise taxes for the next bright idea even though enough money to pay for it is already being sucked up by bloated earmarked budgets that serve only a select few.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Here, I'll even help you out some: IF the monies were spent more efficiently (ie less waste) would you agree that the Estate Tax should exist?


If after wasteful spending was reduced and if the majority of people still had a huge tax burden, I would be willing to entertain the idea. Until that time comes... it is a stop gap measure that does nothing to reduce the tax burden to those that actually need it but merely allows governmet to spend more money.
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Apr, 2006 01:25 pm
Joe,

It seems we are at an impasse as neither of our answers, or non-answers, are satisfactory to the other. Instead of wasting more time going in circles, I wish you a Good Day and look forward to other, and hopefully more productive, discussions.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Apr, 2006 01:29 pm
Quote:
If after wasteful spending was reduced and if the majority of people still had a huge tax burden, I would be willing to entertain the idea. Until that time comes... it is a stop gap measure that does nothing to reduce the tax burden to those that actually need it but merely allows governmet to spend more money.


A 'stopgap?' The Estate Tax has been in effect for the better part of a century. It is hardly a 'stopgap' measure by any means.

I have a hint for you: regardless of actual current spending, every citizen in America has a huge tax burden. It's called the National Debt. It's getting worse because the Republicans can't control the budget (they are worse than dems). Even if we didn't have any new spending at all, it would still take many years for every American to pay back his share of the national debt.

Your position that our problems are caused only by wasteful spending is patently ridiculous. We cannot rely upon one person's opinion of 'efficiency' in government spending to determine our tax policies. Repealing the Estate tax will cost the government a TRILLION dollars over the next decade. Keeping the tax won't reduce the standards of living for those who pay it one iota. There is no possible argument for allowing this tax to be repealed, and those arguments that have attempted to do so have been shown to be false.

Unless you can come back with a good reason to not raise the taxes aside from your opinion of government spending, you don't have a valid response to the proposition that the tax should be kept.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Apr, 2006 01:32 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:

I have a hint for you: regardless of actual current spending, every citizen in America has a huge tax burden. It's called the National Debt. It's getting worse because the Republicans can't control the budget (they are worse than dems). Even if we didn't have any new spending at all, it would still take many years for every American to pay back his share of the national debt.


WTF do you think I have been talking about??????? My answer to the problem is to stop spending so much god damn money. Your answer is to get more money to spend. And you claim I don't have a valid response???
0 Replies
 
 

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