quinn1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jul, 2003 10:19 am
Those Americans...corrupting again

Wink
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jul, 2003 08:15 pm
As for the plague being responsible for religious "freedom," I am not sure what you mean. Certainly the rise of lay orders in the late fourteenth century was influenced by plague (see Herbert Grundmann, "Religiose Bewegungen in Mittelalter"). Certainly the reform movements came into theri own after the plague, but reform movements were going strong in the late twelfth century.
On Cantor: Be very careful with his work, both scholarly and nonscholarly (like his plague book). I would trust Barabara Tuchman or Allison Weir before I would believe something Cantor wrote, and Tuchman and Weir are talented amateurs, not professional historians!
Caroline Rawlings' "Medicine and Society in Later Medieval England" (Cambridge, 1998) has some interesting material on both theory and practice during the Plague years. Another good source is "Medicine and Surgery from late Antiquity to the High Middle Ages," a collection of essays edited by Mirko Grmek (Johns Hopkins, 2000.).
0 Replies
 
bobsmyth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jul, 2003 08:22 pm
Nice post hobitbob. As one of the resident Bobs let me welcome you to a2k. Hope you enjoy your stay here.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Aug, 2003 02:09 pm
Thanks for the recommendations, hobitbob. Cantor is a gadfly, no doubt about it. I always do read him with caution. he does generate a lot of thought, however, and maybe that is his virtue. I have never gotten into Alison Weir: sometimes when a person is very prolific, it is easy to be put off. i have some of her books but haven't read them yet.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Aug, 2003 10:02 pm
LOL! I was using Weir as an example of how little credibility Cantor has. Allison Weir is a former writer of bodice rippers who decided to take on the Tudors! Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Cosmicfilter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Aug, 2003 07:23 am
To my knowledge, the black death was brought to europe by the mongols. When the city of Venice was beseiged by the mongols, the venetians put up a stiff resistance. So the mongols used catapults and hurled plague infested dead bodies over the ramparts of the city. The plague began it's work and people started dying. To escape it, the venetians fled their city, thus carrying the disease to other parts of europe.
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Aug, 2003 09:57 am
it has also caused vast migrations - 2 millions (and in 13th century, that was an immense number) of germans left their territories and settled across eastern europe, where they settled on the basis of Ius Theutonicum as 'hospites' - mostly in Silesia and along the Baltic coast between 1200 and 1350. This 'Drang nach Osten' along with the aid of the Teutonic Knights helped to christianize the pagans in the east.
Lonnie Johnson's 'Central Europe: Enemies, Neighbors, Friends' devotes one chapter to these movements.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Aug, 2003 03:18 pm
Cosmicfilter wrote:
To my knowledge, the black death was brought to europe by the mongols. When the city of Venice was beseiged by the mongols, the venetians put up a stiff resistance. So the mongols used catapults and hurled plague infested dead bodies over the ramparts of the city. The plague began it's work and people started dying. To escape it, the venetians fled their city, thus carrying the disease to other parts of europe.

Erm..no. The plague may have originated in Mongolia in the 9th Century, that is the current theory. The commonly stated origin of the plague in Europe was its introduction to the Italian penninsula by ships arriving from the east in 1347. I am unfamiliar with any Mongol attacks on Venice, when did they occur? Also, Venice didn't have "ramparts," but instead relied on its position as an island for its defence.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Aug, 2003 10:11 pm
Some immunity comes with nursing, as the baby's immune system doesn't really kick in by itself for about six months.

There is a book that was famous when I went to school, but I never had time to read, named "Rats, Lice, and History" by Rene Du Bois. I still have it, still haven't read it, although I have read in other places about continuing decimation by the plague over centuries, the Black Death being, I think, 1348. But the plague revisited many times (see Lucchino Visconti's wonderfully eery movie of Thomas Mann's Death in Venice}.

I studied quite a bit at one time about the Rule of Nine governmental body in Siena, quite enlightened rule for its day...sadly rather trumped by the onrush of the plague. Huge numbers died, I seem to remember a third or more of the population.

Then there's Boccaccio's Decameron, written about a group in flight from the plague.

I have no idea if Barbara Tuchman is considered a good historian, but I found her Distant Mirror formative in my own thinking; she covers quite a bit of medieval european history, including a lot of commentary on the incidence of plague.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Aug, 2003 10:13 pm
Tuchmann is a talented amature. Entertaining, but limited. Sorry. Sad
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Aug, 2003 10:46 pm
That's okay, I suspected that, even though I said I had no idea.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Aug, 2003 11:05 pm
usually, if one isn't an academic,and isn't affiliated with a university, and writes about every period and subject imaginable (in Tuchmann's case: 14th Century France, WWI, 19th and early twentieth century British policy toward Palestine, late 19th century British Aristocracy, Rennaisance Papcy, Revolutionary War British leadership, Vietnam era American leadership, etc...) they are amatures.
Now, to be fair, she is one heck of a fine narrativist, and does make every effort toward accuracy. Her analysis, though faulty at times, is usally adequate for the non-specialist reader. She is a great introduction to the study opf history, and I have used "A Distant Mirror" as a discussion section text when I have taught 300 level medieval classes. I'm using it this fall (Staring tomorrow, in fact).
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2003 08:51 am
ossobuco wrote:
There is a book that was famous when I went to school, but I never had time to read, named "Rats, Lice, and History" by Rene Du Bois.


Rats, Lice, and History was written by Hans Zinsser. I've read it twice: it's a terrific, quirky, enjoyable book. Zinsser wrote it as a "biography" of typhus, but it contains a number of rather interesting digressions. I had a professor who dismissed Zinsser, saying that he was wrong in his discussion of black v. brown rats as disease carriers, but I believe that further research has backed Zinsser's position.

ossobuco wrote:
I have no idea if Barbara Tuchman is considered a good historian, but I found her Distant Mirror formative in my own thinking; she covers quite a bit of medieval european history, including a lot of commentary on the incidence of plague.


Tuchman is generally ignored by professional historians, and with some reason. She was, as hobitbob points out, a talented amateur, a fine writer, and an engaging narrativist. She also managed to become a best-selling author, which makes most professional historians gnash their teeth and rend their garments in despair and envy.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2003 10:23 am
On a totally unrelated matter, there is a fascinating novel by a Dutch woman, Helle Haasse, In a Dark Wood Wandering, which takes for its central character, the Duc d'Orléans, or the early 15th century. His father was the brother of Charles le bien aimé, the mad king, and he (the Duke) was murdered at the instigation of Jean sans peur, the Duc de Bourgogne, who established the great Burgundian dynasty. These events, by way of Agincourt, lead to the surrender of France to Henry V, and the novel even briefly introduces us to La Pucelle--the commander of French troops at the siege of Orléans, Dunois, The Bastard, was the half-brother of the central character. I highly recommend this novel to those with an interest in the middle ages.

http://www.babelguides.com/img/covers/089733356X_l.jpg
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2003 10:25 am
joefromchicago wrote:
Tuchman is generally ignored by professional historians, and with some reason. She was, as hobitbob points out, a talented amateur, a fine writer, and an engaging narrativist. She also managed to become a best-selling author, which makes most professional historians gnash their teeth and rend their garments in despair and envy.


I loved this--envy is certainly a big factor. Hobshawm is particularly nasty about Tuchmann, but then, he's always been pissed that the entire world of historians and historiographers has not recognized that his statistical analyses are the final word on all historical subjects.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2003 10:41 am
I typed Hans Zinsser first, then erased it. Wonder what I am remembering was by DuBois? Zinsser wrote my key bacteriology text. I am so damn old I forget the title. Back in a minute.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Aug, 2003 10:54 am
Couldn't find my Zinsser bacti book title, but did find this - http://www.isr.umd.edu/~miw/coco/id33.htm

and duBois seems to be a medical history writer; I scarfed up a lot of medical history when I was a teen. Didn't find a title looking quickly. Apparently he is the fellow who wrote the oft used quote about thinking globally and acting locally.
0 Replies
 
kev
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Aug, 2003 10:21 pm
Sugar, the village you mentioned was Eyam in derbyshire.

http://www.cressbrook.co.uk/eyam/
0 Replies
 
Questioning
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2003 09:03 am
Immunity
Interesting thought, Genetic immunity, Babies Immune systems come in 2 stages: Immunity already designed by genes and immunity accuired by exposure. Babies grow and their immune system developes as the child ages. If the Immune system has a window that "reads" the environment and starts modifying the immune system to note that certain elements in the environment are "NORMAL" then these Elements are not reacted to by the Immune system. This seems to be what is happening in most of the world. America takes the Babies and supplies a artificial environment for the newborn. Home born babies do not seem to develope Allergic reactions at the same level as those born in hospitals. So by protecting the babies immediately after being born are we aborting the Immune system programming? Remember Allergies are almost an AMERICAN epidemic.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2003 11:10 am
Makes sense to me, Questioning. I remember learning that the thymus doesn't become active til about six months, and that is involved in the baby's immune system development. My information is decades old, though.
0 Replies
 
 

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