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'Hitler's holocaust plan for Jews in Palestine ...

 
 
Chumly
 
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Reply Wed 19 Apr, 2006 11:59 pm
The old bugaboo: separation of church and state.
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Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Thu 20 Apr, 2006 01:43 am
I've the book now and already "read it diagonally".

All that what was published in the international media and topic of this thread is only a small part in 22-page essay, called " 'Removal of the Jewish-national homestead in Palestine' - the task force at the tank commando in Africa 1942" ("Beseitigung der jüdisch-nationalen Heimstätte in Palestina." - Das Einsatzbei der Panzerarmee Afrika 1942).

Besides that, there are a couple of more essays in that book, which actually should interest historians as much but which didn't get publicity at all. (Like new sources about the 1943 deportations in Rome or a survey about the perception of the Holocaust in the USA 1943-45 ...)
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Chumly
 
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Reply Thu 20 Apr, 2006 01:47 am
Tell me about the survey about the perception of the Holocaust in the USA 1943-45 ...)
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Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Thu 20 Apr, 2006 09:31 am
It's actually an (translated from English to German) essay by Robert G. Waite, Ph.D. (Senior Historian, Office of Special Investigations, U.S. Department of Justice):
"The American media, the war crimes trials and the public perception in the USA 1943 - 1955" ('Die amerikanischen Medien, die Kriegsverbrecherprozesse und die öffentliche Wahrnehmung in den USA 1943 - 1955')
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miguelito21
 
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Reply Thu 20 Apr, 2006 10:52 am
Quote:
anti-Jewish attitudes have been part of the fabric of the Middle East for many centuries.


actually not really.

jews, as well as christians, played an important role in the islamic empires, in trade and administration.

ppl sometimes refer to the "special tax" (i dont know the exact word of it) non-muslims had to pay when they talk about anti-jewish sentiments.
but actually it was the same amount muslims had to pay as a religious duty (charity).
i dont know how it was percieved by non-muslims, but i guess they didnt really enjoy it, since, well, no one likes taxes.


however, anti-zionism played a very big role in the last decades in the ideological construction of panarabism.
i think destruction of Israel was maybe the only thing that could get all the members of the Arab League to agree with eachother.

now most arab countries recognized the legitimate existence of Isreal ( i know Iran didnt, i dont know who else ... maybe saudi arabia ... not sure), but the pro-palestinian stance in the conflict is still something that "unites" them.

thats what i think.



now, has anyone read, or heard of, that book :

"The Rape of Palestine," by William Ziff, first published in 1938 by Argus Books in the US.


i didnt read it, but i read a short summary here

http://www.twf.org/News/Y1998/JewsArabs.html

what are your thaughts about this book ?
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Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Thu 20 Apr, 2006 11:27 am
No, I haven't. And I find it not only difficult to discuss a book by just having read a summary which is copied all over the web but not legitim.

(According to another sites
, William Ziff was an advertising executive who headed American Revisionism.)

Have you read "Coming Battle of Germany" by William Ziff,Duell, Sloan and Pierce 1942? Would like to hear your opinion about it, miguelito21.
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miguelito21
 
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Reply Thu 20 Apr, 2006 12:07 pm
Quote:
I find it not only difficult to discuss a book by just having read a summary which is copied all over the web but not legitim.


sure.


Quote:
Have you read "Coming Battle of Germany" by William Ziff,Duell, Sloan and Pierce 1942?


nope.

is it good ?
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Chumly
 
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Reply Thu 20 Apr, 2006 12:56 pm
Chumly wrote:
anti-Jewish attitudes have been part of the fabric of the Middle East for many centuries.
miguelito21 wrote:
actually not really.
Actually really!
Anti-Semitism From Wikipedia wrote:
Religious anti-Semitism, or anti-Judaism. Before the 19th century, most anti-Semitism was primarily religious in nature, based on Christian or Islamic interactions with and interpretations of Judaism. Since Judaism was generally the largest minority religion in Christian Europe and much of the Islamic world, Jews were often the primary targets of religiously-motivated violence and persecution from Christian and, to a lesser degree, Islamic rulers.

The earliest occurrence of antisemitism has been the subject of debate among scholars. Professor Peter Schafer of the Freie University of Berlin has argued that antisemitism was first spread by "the Greek retelling of ancient Egyptian prejudices". In view of the anti-Jewish writings of the Egyptian priest Manetho, Schafer suggests that anti-Semitism may have emerged "in Egypt alone".[11] The hostility commonly faced by Jews in the Diaspora has been extensively described by John M. G. Barclay of the University of Durham.[12] The ancient Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria described an attack on Jews in Alexandria in 38 CE in Flaccus, in which thousands of Jews died. In the analysis of Pieter W. Van Der Horst, the cause of the violence in Alexandria was that Jews had been portrayed as misanthropes.[13] Gideon Bohak has argued that early animosity against Jews was not anti-Judaism unless it arose from attitudes held against Jews alone. Using this stricter definition, Bohak says that many Greeks had animosity toward any group they regarded as barbarians.[14] The 150 BCE suppression of Jewish religious practice by use of deadly force against civilians, as recounted in 1 Maccabees, then qualifies as anti-Judaism in a broader sense of the term than is used by Bohak. There are other examples of ancient animosity towards Jews that are not considered by all to fall within the definition of anti-semitism.
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miguelito21
 
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Reply Fri 21 Apr, 2006 10:38 am
i still dont agree.

what u posted states that hostility towards judaism is very ancient. i dont dispute that.
i think hostility between different religions is something that is common to pretty much all places at all times in history.

(on a side note, im confused by the use of the words semitism and judaism in the article. is it just me ? Confused )


however, i disagree with ur statment that anti-judaism has been part of the fabric of ME for centuries.

Fabric meaning an underlying structure, a framework (sorry if thats obvious to you, its not to me. lol ), i dont see how religious minorities, among them Jews, could have had so much importance in the administration of islamic empires, if that was the case.
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Chumly
 
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Reply Fri 21 Apr, 2006 11:56 am
Well given that:

1) Judaism is absolutely essential to the Abrahamic mythopoiea.
2) "the earliest occurrence of anti-Semitism has been the subject of debate among scholars".
3) various scholars hold narrower and wider definitions of what constitutes anti-Judaism.
4) "The ancient Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria described an attack on Jews in Alexandria in 38 CE in Flaccus, in which thousands of Jews died." as just the one cited example.

I think it's safe to say:

a) the importance of Judaism is not in contention, but is in fact absolutely essential to the fabric of the Middle East, so I suggest that anti-Judaism could be too.
b) the amount, and the degree of anti-Jewish attitudes and actions of those in the Middle East is debatable, but appears to have been common enough.

To my way of thinking if you suggest that it was common for there to be hostility between different religions, I would then suggest that violent religious intolerance in a wider sense was also part of the fabric of the Middle East for centuries, but that does not change the anti-Jewish component.

I'm not an expert, but it seems even the experts have quite wide views.
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miguelito21
 
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Reply Fri 21 Apr, 2006 06:08 pm
well it seems that we have to "guess" too many things and would definitely need a couple of books by experts. Laughing
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Chumly
 
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Reply Fri 21 Apr, 2006 06:19 pm
I'll bet you one thing, you're more knowledgeable (and probably by quite a margin) on the subject than me.

The reason it holds an interest for me is because I am Jewish by ethnic origin.
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miguelito21
 
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Reply Fri 21 Apr, 2006 06:33 pm
thanks but im not sure about that bet, the only book i read mentions Jews' importance in the administration (even at high levels) of islamic empires, but doesnt talk about anti-judaism in those empires so ... i have to guess.
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Chumly
 
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Reply Fri 21 Apr, 2006 06:52 pm
Did you see the movie Nixon? If so you might remember that Nixon kept Kissinger as a much needed global political pundit but still privately made anti-Semitic comments. Noted here as well Nixon and the Jews.

I do understand Oliver Stone has been criticized for taking liberties in historical interpretations but in the case of Nixon's views on the Jews they appear well documented and parallel your point while underpinning mine.

This I can attest to with some certainty: traditionally and historically Jews have been prized for their intellectual and artistic prowess, while at the same time disdained for thier abliites and their "Jewish-ness".
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Trojan
 
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Reply Mon 1 May, 2006 03:21 pm
Rommel
Somehow I have problems imagining Rommel sitting idle while thousands were slaughtered. In the midst of the battle for Normandy, he protested the actions of the Das Reich division. And one would expect he'd exercise more freedom of action in Palestine then he did in Normandy.
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Chumly
 
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Reply Mon 1 May, 2006 03:31 pm
Dream on, you've been watching too many WWII movies glorifying Romel's supposed sense of morality as being relevant, or his supposed idealized abilities to change the Nazi's Holocaust agenda.

Let me save a bunch of time "Trojan". There was no Jewish Holocaust. The Nazis were simply misunderstood. In fact the Jews simply made up the Holocaust to get money and sympathy for the global Zionist conspiracy.
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Trojan
 
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Reply Tue 2 May, 2006 04:37 pm
Chumly wrote:
Dream on, you've been watching too many WWII movies glorifying Romel's supposed sense of morality as being relevant, or his supposed idealized abilities to change the Nazi's Holocaust agenda.

Let me save a bunch of time "Trojan". There was no Jewish Holocaust. The Nazis were simply misunderstood. In fact the Jews simply made up the Holocaust to get money and sympathy for the global Zionist conspiracy.


Ever hear of Oradour-sur-Glane?

(yeah - I know, the communists did it)
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Steve 41oo
 
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Reply Tue 2 May, 2006 05:00 pm
The establishment of a Zionist state in Palestine, and its recognition by the United States within minutes, was the biggest single political mistake of the 20th century imo.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 May, 2006 05:02 pm
Truman was desparate to be elected . . .
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 May, 2006 05:06 pm
yes what a pity.

Marshall, Forrestal were dead against I believe. But then lecshuns is lecshuns.
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