Retired Generals finally calling for Rumsfeld resignation

Rummy is pointing the finger back at the Generals. He should be resigning shortly.

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blueflame1 wrote:

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Just in case anyone wants to see his lips move...

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NARRATOR: And then, just three weeks before the invasion of Iraq was to begin, General Shinseki was forced to take his internal fight with Secretary Rumsfeld public.

Sen. CARL LEVIN (D), Michigan: General Shinseki, could you give us some idea as to the magnitude of the Army's force requirement for an occupation of Iraq, following a successful completion of the war?

Gen. ERIC SHINSEKI, Army Chief of Staff, '98-'03: In specific numbers, I would have to rely on combatant commanders' exact requirements, but I think-

Sen. CARL LEVIN: How about a range?

Gen. ERIC SHINSEKI: I would say that what's been mobilized to this point, something on the order of several hundred thousand soldiers are probably, you know, a figure that would be required. We're talking about post-hostilities control over a piece of geography that's fairly significant, with the kinds of ethnic tensions that could lead to other problems. And so it takes a significant ground force presence.

THOMAS WHITE, Secretary of the Army, 2001-'03: So the next morning, I get a call from Wolfowitz, who is upset that Shinseki would give this number. And I forget exactly what I said, but I said, "Well, he's an expert. He was asked. He has a fundamental responsibility to answer the questions and offer his professional opinion, which he did. And there was some basis to the opinion because he is a relative expert on the subject." So a week later-

INTERVIEWER: So what does Wolfowitz say when you say that? I mean, that's-

THOMAS WHITE: Well, he's- he's- they're mad. They're upset.

REPORTER: Army chief of staff General Shinseki said it would take several hundred thousand troops on the ground-

DONALD RUMSFELD: There's so many variables that it is not knowable. It is- however, I will say this. What is, I think, reasonably certain is the idea that it would take several hundred thousand U.S. forces I think is far from the mark.[/b]

PAUL WOLFOWITZ, Deputy Secretary of Defense: It's hard to conceive that it would take more forces to provide stability in post-Saddam Iraq than it would take to conduct the war itself and to secure the surrender of Saddam's security forces and his army. Hard to imagine.

THOMAS WHITE: All of us in the Army felt just the opposite, that there was a long history of that being absolutely true, that the defeat of the Iraqi military would be a relatively straightforward operation of fairly short duration, but that the securing of the peace and the security of a country of 25 million people spread out over an enormous geographic area would be a tremendous challenge that would take a lot of people, a lot of labor, to be done right.

PAUL WOLFOWITZ: In short, we don't know what the requirement will be, but we can say with reasonable confidence that the notion of hundreds of thousands of American troops is way off the mark.

THOMAS WHITE: So they discredit Shinseki. Then a week later, I get in front of the same committee. I get asked- I see Senator Levin before the hearing starts, and he says, "I'm going to ask you the same question." I said, "Good." I said, "You're going to get the same answer." And so he asked me the question, and I- exactly the same answer. And you know, and at that point, Shinseki and White are not on the team, right? We don't get it. We don't understand this thing, and we are not on the team. And therefore, you know, actions are going to be taken.

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Rumsfelds War transcript[/b]
Watch it all Online[/b]
Interviews[/u]

Edit: The video of the above quotes can be viewed in Chapter 5 of the 6 chapter program.

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panzade wrote:

Montana...here's my take:

I'm not an apologist for the right or, for that matter, a cheerleader for the left. I just want good discussions.
I get the sense that a lot of the more erudite righties have abandoned ship here at A2K...I mean as far as Iraq is concerned.
The mutiny of the generals is a serious thing for our republic...I just don't see the old guard jumping in to disagree.

Panzade, you'll have to pardon my ignorance, but I have no idea what you're saying here Laughing

I was just having fun with my left, right, left thing because I was just being me Laughing

Actually, I said it because the labels bug me and it's my funny little way of saying so ;-)

So, what were you trying to tell me? Laughing

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Montana, some may infer that the left right left right is a belief that the military (generals) were willing to disagree with Rumsfeld for fear that they may lose their jobs. As I have seen it, every last general argued their case. But, we have all had bosses that marched to their own drummer. Some bosses just don't have as much at stake as others.

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Oh, I see. I had no idea and that is not at all what my left right left was all about.

McG knows what my left right left is, though ;-)

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Your weapons of mass destruction sweetie...right?

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panzade wrote:

I get the sense that a lot of the more erudite righties have abandoned ship here at A2K...I mean as far as Iraq is concerned.

Really?

They seem to have been somewhat more silent re howling down evidence of torture by US personnel, but I hadn't noticed less support for the war in Iraq.

Can you say what gives you that feeling?

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Quote:

I get the sense that a lot of the more erudite righties have abandoned ship here at A2K...I mean as far as Iraq is concerned.

Quote:

Really?

They seem to have been somewhat more silent re howling down evidence of torture by US personnel, but I hadn't noticed less support for the war in Iraq.

Can you say what gives you that feeling?

Erudite righties? Isn't that an oxymoron. Perhaps becuse there is no logical defense to the Iraq disaster, I do not see any defense of the war here coming from those who could be described as erudite. Delusional or insane might fit.

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BBB
I've tagged them with being Republican Party chauvinists who put the interests of their party above those of the country.

BBB

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panzade wrote:

Your weapons of mass destruction sweetie...right?

I can't find my weapons of mass destruction. Have you seen them?

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dlowan wrote:

Really?

They seem to have been somewhat more silent re howling down evidence of torture by US personnel, but I hadn't noticed less support for the war in Iraq.

Can you say what gives you that feeling?

Perhaps it's my perception, peering through the fog with my hindsight goggles on. It just seems to be nothing but personal attacks and vitriol now on the A2K political forums. I guess a useless presidency and an incomprehensible crusade can make people pretty cranky...but...I know...If you can't stand the heat...stay out of the kitchen...and I do.

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Quote:

If you can't stand the heat...stay out of the kitchen...and I do.

And I'd thaught, it was you on the avatar ...

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

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If you can't stand the heat...stay out of the kitchen...and I do.

And I'd thaught, it was you on the avatar ...

clever...as always

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Well, seriously, I would have preferred you being the one there in kitchen instead of thinking now jealously that the gym-avatar showed you ... ...

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Retired chief justice for third circuit says Rumsfeld shows 'disregard' for military law

RAW STORY
Published: Monday April 24, 2006

John J. Gibbons, a former Chief Judge of the Third Circuit Court of Appeals appointed by President Richard Nixon and a former officer in the U.S. Navy, joined the chorus of critics attacking Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld Monday, RAW STORY has learned.

"As many distinguished experts have concluded, Donald Rumsfeld has failed in his job as Secretary of Defense," Gibbons said in a statement released to RAW STORY. "I believe our security, our military and our rule of law have all suffered under his leadership.

"The recent disclosure of testimony from the Army Inspector General's 391-page report from December 2005 indicates that Secretary Rumsfeld had far more knowledge of and responsibility for degrading and abusive treatment of my client than he previously acknowledged. The Army's own reports reveal a Defense Secretary showing a disturbing disregard for military law.

"As a retired judge, a lawyer and a veteran, I have the utmost respect for our country's laws and our commitment to civilian control of the military. Those obligations are consistent with an honest public debate about our country's leadership and U.S. policy."

More from his release:

"Judge Gibbons is co-counsel with the Center for Constitutional Rights for Mohammed Al Qhatami, and he argued the case before the Supreme Court that established the rights of Guantánamo detainees to challenge their detention in U.S. court (Rasul v. Bush).

"Gibbons served on the Third Circuit Court of Appeals from 1970 to 1990, including serving as Chief Judge for three years, authoring about 800 published opinions. He formerly taught Constitutional Law and at Seton Hall University Law School.

"He is a Past President of the New Jersey State Bar Association, a Fellow of the American Bar Foundation, an Emeritus Director of the American Arbitration Association, a Trustee Emeritus of the Practicing Law Institute, a Trustee Emeritus of Holy Cross College and a Trustee of The Fund for New Jersey. Judge Gibbons served on active duty in the United States Navy from 1943 to1946 and attained the rank of Lieutenant Junior Grade as a Naval Reserve Officer.

"The Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR) currently oversees 450 pro-bono attorneys representing the detainees. CCR is a non-profit legal and educational organization dedicated to protecting and advancing the rights guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Founded in 1966 by attorneys who represented civil rights demonstrators in the South, CCR is committed to the creative use of law as a positive force for social change."

The group's "Guantanamo Justice" initiative can be found here.
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Retired_chief_justice_for_third_circuit_0424.html

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Rumsfeld sued over Pentagon's recruiting database By Daniel Trotta

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Six New York teen-agers sued Pentagon chief Donald Rumsfeld on Monday, alleging the U.S. Department of Defense broke the law by keeping an extensive database on potential recruits.

The suit in federal court in Manhattan follows a series of allegations last year of misconduct by recruiters, who have experienced difficulty meeting targets because of the war in Iraq.

The Pentagon last year acknowledged it had created a database of 12 million Americans, full of personal data such as grades and Social Security numbers, to help find potential military recruits.

The Pentagon has defended the practice as critical to the success of the all-volunteer U.S. military, and said it was sensitive to privacy concerns.

But the suit alleges the Pentagon improperly collected data on people as young as 16 and kept it beyond a three-year limit, and said that the law does not allow for keeping records on race, ethnicity, gender or social security numbers.

"On the one hand Congress has afforded broad latitude to collect information but on the other hand the Department of Defense has completely flouted those limits," said Donna Lieberman, director of the New York Civil Liberties Union, which filed the suit on behalf of the six plaintiffs.

The Pentagon referred the case to a spokeswoman who was not immediately available for comment.

Although the database was created in 2003, before the U.S. military started missing recruiting targets, the Pentagon first revealed the program in the federal register last year just has it was hit by other recruiting scandals.

The plaintiffs -- all 16- and 17-year-old students from the New York area -- were approached by military recruiters even after demanding that their information be stricken from the database, Lieberman said.

They want the court to declare the database illegal, force the military to stop keeping improper records and pay for their lawyers.

The suit names Rumsfeld; David Chu, the under secretary of defense for personnel and readiness, and Matt Boehmer, the Pentagon's director of advertising and market research studies.

"There's nothing sinister," Chu said when responding to criticism of the program last year.

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Say Uncle, Rummy
By MAUREEN DOWD
WASHINGTON

Even some State Department officials thought it was like watching a cranky, eccentric uncle with an efficient, energetic niece.

Rummy was ordered to go to Iraq by the president, but he clearly has no stomach for nation-building, or letting Condi run the show. He seemed under the weather after a rough overnight ride on a C-17 transport plane from Washington into Baghdad. And Condi's aides were rolling their eyes at the less than respectful way the DefSec treated the SecState as she tried to be enthusiastic, in her cheerful automaton way, about what she considers the latest last chance for Iraq.

A reporter in Baghdad asked Rummy about the kerfuffle when Condi talked of "thousands" of tactical errors in Iraq. Rummy later noted that "I don't know what she was talking about, to be perfectly honest" and that anyone who said that had "a lack of understanding" about warfare. She's just a silly girl, after all.

He could have taken the opportunity to be diplomatic about the diplomat, but he's incapable of that, so he just added more fuel to the fire.

"She's right here, and you can ask her," he said, pointing to Condi, who said she had not meant errors "in the military sense." She must have meant mismanagement in the civilians-mucking-up-the-military sense.

The former "Matinee Idol," as W. liked to call him, is now a figure of absurdity, clinging to his job only because some retired generals turned him into a new front on the war on terror. On his rare, brief visit to Baghdad, he was afraid to go outside Fortress Green Zone, even though he yammers on conservative talk shows about how progress is being made, and how the press never reports good news out of Iraq.

If the news is so good, why wasn't Rummy gallivanting at the local mall, walking around rather than hiding out in the U.S. base known as Camp Victory? (What are they going to call it, one reporter joked, Camp Defeat?)

In further evidence of their astute connection with the Iraqi culture, the cabinet secretaries showed up there without even knowing the correct name of their latest puppet. It turned out that Jawad al-Maliki, the new prime minister-designate, considered "Jawad" his exile name and had reverted to Nuri Kamal al-Maliki.

On the cusp of the third anniversary of "Mission Accomplished," Rummy was still in denial despite the civil war, with armed gangs of Shiites and Sunnis going out and killing each other and Balkanizing whole communities.

When a reporter asked him what the U.S. had to do to get the militias under control and stop the sectarian dueling, he answered bluntly: "I guess the first thing I have to say is we don't, the Iraqis do. It's their country. It's a sovereign country. This is not a government that has an 'interim' in front of it or a 'transition' in front of it. It's a government that's in for a period of years and undoubtedly, unquestionably, will be addressing the question as to how they can best provide for the security of all of their people."

Yeah, let's leave it up to what's-his-name. We broke it. What's-his-name can fix it.

The assertions that Iraq is largely peaceful were belied yesterday by our own government. A State Department report on global terrorism counted 8,300 deaths of civilians in Iraq from insurgent attacks ? more than half of all those killed by terrorists worldwide ? and noted that violence is escalating. The elections have clearly not quelled the violence, and terrorists are said to be trying to turn Iraq's Anbar province into a base for Al Qaeda and other militants. (And since it's our State Department, you've got to figure it's soft-peddling things.)

April was the most lethal month for U.S. soldiers this year; at least 67 died.

The Bush II hawks were determined to restore a Reaganesque muscular, "moral" foreign policy, as opposed to the realpolitik of Bush I. But with no solution in sight, Congress is pressing for some realpolitik. With W.'s blessing, lawmakers are sending his father's old consigliere, James Baker, to Iraq to look for a way out.

As Iran vows to go ahead with its nuclear ambitions, the administration finds itself relying for help on the very people it steamrolled and undermined before the Iraq war: the U.N. and international arms inspectors.

"The Security Council is the primary and most important institution for the maintenance of peace and stability and security, and it cannot have its word and its will simply ignored by a member state," Condi said after a NATO meeting on Thursday.

Rummy may get prickly with his office niece, but who else but the automaton could make that threat with a straight face?

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A letter to the editor in The Arizona Daily Star caught my eye today.

Quote:

Man who knows what he's doing
Let us honor a fine gentleman and ideal soldier, Gen. Eric Shinseki. He told the truth to power and accepted the consequences without complaint, no books or leaks to reporters. Contrast this with Gen. Tommy Franks, who was wrong about everything in Iraq and became a star in the George W. Bush presidential campaign.
If President Bush really wants to restore public belief in his effort to solve the Iraq problem, he will dump Donald Rumsfeld and replace him with Gen. Shinseki.
It would tell both civilians and the military that there is a man in charge who knows what he is doing.
Sidney Brooks
Bowie

How about rather than dumping Rumsfeld altogether, just making him an assistant to Shinseki?

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mesquite, can Rummy make coffee? Does he do windows?

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blueflame1 wrote:

"The Security Council is the primary and most important institution for the maintenance of peace and stability and security, and it cannot have its word and its will simply ignored by a member state," Condi said after a NATO meeting on Thursday.?

I heard Bush paying lip service to the UN yesterday in the Iran standoff and thought about how the administration had dismissed any thought of working with the United Nations against Iraq.
What a waste these last three years have been...what a waste.

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Retired Generals finally calling for Rumsfeld resignation

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