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Why Iraq Was a Mistake

 
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2006 02:34 am
She is a lot wiser after all without any political experience she beat Rudy Guliani and that other guy under tremendous withering attack.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2006 01:35 pm
talk72000, Hillary without experience? Consider all the years of Bill Clinton's office holding. That was her education in political manuvering. I'm not worried about her political skills; I'm worred about the quality of her leadership.
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Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2006 04:31 pm
JLNobody wrote:
talk72000, Hillary without experience? Consider all the years of Bill Clinton's office holding. That was her education in political manuvering. I'm not worried about her political skills; I'm worred about the quality of her leadership.


Mo too JL, Me too!

'Anon
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2006 03:47 am
He's still talking, this from today's NYT


Retired Lt. Gen. Greg Newbold writes this week in Time
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Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2006 07:43 am
Joe Nation wrote:
He's still talking, this from today's NYT


Retired Lt. Gen. Greg Newbold writes this week in Time


Which is why I detest chickenhawks.

Anon
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mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2006 01:23 pm
Anon-Voter wrote:
Joe Nation wrote:
He's still talking, this from today's NYT


Retired Lt. Gen. Greg Newbold writes this week in Time


Which is why I detest chickenhawks.

Anon


But you do love and admire cowards.
That says a lot about you,doesnt it?
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2006 01:42 pm
I had no idea Anon-Voter admired you, mm.
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ralpheb
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2006 06:05 pm
Yea as always I'm a little slow on the uptake, but I do have to throw my cheap opinion in on this. Somebody asked why some of these generls are waiting so long before they voiced thier objections about the war. A very major reason is that ANY officer who puts down or objects in public any decision made by or puts down any elected US official is subject to Court Martial. And if you saw how much money a 2-4 star general would lose in retirement with the reduction of just one pay grade you would cry if it was you.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2006 06:08 pm
That makes sense, Ralpheb.
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Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2006 06:26 pm
JLNobody wrote:
That makes sense, Ralpheb.


Yeppers!!

Anon
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ralpheb
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2006 06:34 pm
we enlisted guys can get away with a lot more:) and people wondered why I didn't become an officer!
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blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2006 06:54 pm
Gen. Batiste was offered a promotion to 3-star rank to return to Iraq & be the No. 2 U.S. military officer there but he declined because he no longer wished to serve under Rumsfeld.
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2006 07:37 pm
ralpheb wrote:
Yea as always I'm a little slow on the uptake, but I do have to throw my cheap opinion in on this. Somebody asked why some of these generls are waiting so long before they voiced thier objections about the war. A very major reason is that ANY officer who puts down or objects in public any decision made by or puts down any elected US official is subject to Court Martial. And if you saw how much money a 2-4 star general would lose in retirement with the reduction of just one pay grade you would cry if it was you.


Hi ralph.
I'm teaching at the AMEDD Center in Ft Sam Houston. Why do you figure that a General would get courtmartialed for disageeing publicly, while active? I think he'd probably get a lot of heat and not much support, but on what grounds would he be courtmartialed, if he wasn't out-and-out insubordinate?
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ralpheb
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2006 07:43 pm
Because it part of their pledge when they become officers. It's part of the UCMJ. Don't ask me to quote the article because it slips my mind at the moment.
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2006 10:36 pm
There is UCMJ-actionable stuff, and then there is just plain old moral cowardice. It will impress the hell out of me when one of these generals risks his career for the good of the country and calls a fuckup a fuckup while active.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2006 10:39 pm
ralpheb is correct -- an officer cannot do it while active in the service, especially against the Commander in Chief. Even if he is the epitome of the Peter Principal.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2006 10:46 pm
snood wrote:
There is UCMJ-actionable stuff, and then there is just plain old moral cowardice. It will impress the hell out of me when one of these generals risks his career for the good of the country and calls a **** a **** while active.


While I agree with you, the sad fact is that military people are under a different set of laws from the rest of us. This administration has to be the most inept and the most cowardly in the history of the union. They won't admit to any wrongdoing and continue to make the same mistakes over and over. They couldn't do any worse if their PR man was Tom Cruise.
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2006 11:22 pm
Lightwizard wrote:
ralpheb is correct -- an officer cannot do it while active in the service, especially against the Commander in Chief. Even if he is the epitome of the Peter Principal.


I still think there isn't anything (besides perhaps pressure them into early retirement) that can legally be done, unless the officers are blatantly insubordinate, as in contemptuous:


888. ART. 88. CONTEMPT TOWARD OFFICIALS
Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.


I don't think that they are in real danger of being treated as criminals unless they are insubordinate, or give up state secrets, or demonstrably endanger troops. I still think the only thing keeping these generals from speaking up when they are active isn't fear of punishment as much as fear of losing status and standing. The climate is so volatile that the Army wouldn't dare court martial a general for speaking his mind right now. They do not want that kind of negative PR focused on them. But - and this is how the game gets played - that general would get a crapload of pressure, and would get rendered ineffective, and would lose his power and standing. that's exactly what happened to General Shinseki for firmly opposing the status quo - forced retirement. I think that's what they're afraid of - not ending up in Leavenworth, or anything of that sort. I think they're afraid of losing their marketability, and other chickenshit concerns.

That's why I can only get so excited about them "coming forward" in a way that will aggrandize themselves, and not touch the status quo.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Apr, 2006 11:36 pm
That would be treated as insubordination -- if you've ever been in the service, you would know that. You are not a citizen but a little war robot that has to obey the king.
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Apr, 2006 05:16 am
Lightwizard wrote:
That would be treated as insubordination -- if you've ever been in the service, you would know that. You are not a citizen but a little war robot that has to obey the king.


I think I have a pretty good perspective from which to get my opinion on what would and would not happen, LW - I'm active duty now for about 16 years...
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