Girls Gone Wild

That makes a lot of sense. It sounds like you're handling it really well. I don't really see anything more you can do besides gently reminding her that you're there for her if she should discover that she can't handle it, which you probably already do.

I think both you and sozlet are handling things very well. It's only natural that a two-year-older girl will say and do things that take sozlet a while to process.

And no, I wouldn't automatically trust a 7 year old. I had a 5 year old "friend" of my son's lie to my face more than once, denying things I'd seen him do with my own eyes. Eventually I had to be the bad guy and break the two of them up. I have never regretted it. My son knew exactly why I didn't consider this boy a "real friend," and so far he hasn't chosen another buddy that lies. (That I know of. )

Dishonesty knows no age limit.

This is all giving me a sense though, in a sad way, of how a sneaking lying personality develops, and I think it is primarily a response/reactive thing, defense to keep being loved/approved of. Not that some hiding isn't part of normal maturation, just musing here.

Fer sure, Eva.

I've thought about that -- "breaking them up." The people who lived here before us had a girl almost exactly Anna's age, but they didn't play together. Anna's parents were annoyed about it, mention it as one of several examples of snootiness (and I sympathize with several of them). I asked the former homeowner (I've met her a few times) about it in as offhand of a way as I could -- I was trying to figure out if there was something to be really worried about. (Not, like, "so what's up with Anna," just a leading comment about how sozlet likes having a girl right next door, which led to a mention on her part about how her daughter and Anna didn't play together.) She just said that Anna "wasn't very mature." I couldn't really read it, moved on.

osso, yes, very much so. Another aspect to all of this is that Anna is adopted; both she and her little brother were adopted with open adoptions, different biomoms. Her little brother's biomom has a lot of contact with him; hers doesn't. Has to hurt. Especially the contrast; might be different if her little brother's biomom wasn't so much in the picture.

By the way, important point -- I started this cri de coeur when they were upstairs and I was getting weird vibes and I was antsy and not sure what to do. That playdate ended up going fine. The guilt/ diving was because Anna was mid-dress-up and shy; when I next checked on them they were nicely looking at one of sozlet's photo albums together; and sozlet reported, when I asked, that Anna was "actually really nice today."

So, feeling a bit better about things, will just keep eyes open.

Glad to hear it's not an immediate crisis, soz.

Funny...the five-year-old liar was an adopted kid, too. I never thought that meant anything, though, and still don't. Just a coincidence. I actually thought it had more to do with having a verbally abusive father and overly sympathetic mother. That's a recipe for disaster if I ever heard one. By the way, the boy is now 15 and is a walking time bomb.

I hope Anna turns out okay, but I wouldn't put any money on it.

The adopted aspect sheds a lot of light on things. Sort of goes along with osso's comment about a defense to keep being loved and approved of. Hopefully, the relationship will be positive for both girls -- teach sozlet how to deal with difficult situations and teach Anna that the sneaking isn't necessary.

Hmmm I went to Salem, MA yesterday and there was an example of girls gone wild if I ever saw one.

So, um, if Anna starts convulsing and claiming you are being followed by a little yellow bird or otherwise consorting with the devil, well, I'd say, take some strict measures.

PS Just my way of offering a little lightness. Anna sounds a bit like a girl I knew in 6th grade, L___ who was pretty secretive and I think it was more because she was sexually maturing faster than everyone else, and it freaked her out. Now, L___ was older than Anna is, but there may be a developmental disconnect of some sort, I wonder. And the idea that the parents are overly strict and therefore she's acting out -- because she can -- I think that's very much on target.

My second-hand, long-distance guest diagnosis is that Anna (for whatever reason) is scrambling for power, for control.

I can't eat clover at home--but I can eat it in a neighbors yard.

I can't say butt at home, but I can over at Sozlet's house.

I can't control my parents, but I can encourage/make a younger playmate do what I want.

Anna isn't trying to be wicked--Anna is exploring and manipulating the world so that it will be a safer, more pleasant place for Anna.

Unfortunately at Anna's house deceit works well enough, some of the time, to keep deceit a tactic worth trying everywhere.

*******************

Soz--

The reason the kids are playing at your house is that they are too young to be playing elsewhere without your supervision.

You are not being a mean, intrusive, privacy-destroying mama. You are protecting your tiger cub from some bad tactics. Furthermore, Anna is asking for limits.

Darling little roses have thorns. Occasionally roses need pruning. Organic remedies are best when aphids attack--but the aphids have to be controlled.

Are you really believing that, Noddy?
You're talking about a 7 year old girl here, who is testing
the waters. Of course, being adopted should put at least
a mark on her forehead, shouldn't it?

I actually cannot believe, what I am reading here.
As kids, we used to eat sorrel and clover leaves all the time,
we whispered to each other, and we kept secrets from our
parents, not to forget the little white lies we all were capable
of.

Certainly, I can agree with the fact, that Anna is not being
considerate of sozobe's deafness. She will have to learn
that and probably be reminded thereof often, as she might
forget, but to make Anna into a manipulating little monster, is exaggeration par excellence - in my view.

CJ--

Exploring the world and learning to manipulate the world is what childhood is all about.

You wouldn't recoil in horror if I suggested that Anna had to learn to manipulate a needle and thread properly to sew a sampler or a hem or an old fashioned penwiper.

Why is the idea that a kid has to learn to handle/manipulate/get along with or without people so upsetting?

Years and years ago my very social seven year old was feverish on a Friday morning and kept home from school. He spent the morning napping. After a healthy lunch, he vacuumed the living room.

I praised him, and then being a Mama Tiger With Radar, asked whether he'd done the vacuuming to prove that he was well enough to go out to play when his friends came home from school.

He allowed as how this was part of his motivation, "...but running the vacuum is fun, too."

The school stuff continues. Last week, after school, Dolly's little brother (who is in a class for younger preschool next door that meets at the same time) started sobbing disconsolately on our way out. Why? Because Greta (totally new player, in his class, she's latched on to sozlet too) told him that he couldn't be sozlet's friend.

bluhbluhbluhbluh...

(Sozlet hugged him and kissed him on the head and he calmed down).

As the school year draws to an end this is getting more and more ridiculous. Dolly and Pearl are locked in a "she's MY best friend!!!" battle. Sozlet is being pulled this way and that and not liking it much. Maybe Dolly and Pearl can become each others' best friends and free up sozlet for playing with other people... geesh.

Just wrote to her teachers for advice on how to handle the whole thing but especially summer, after school ends.

(Good news is, things have been going well with Anna.)

They are all so young for the Perils of Popularity.

Do Greta and Dolly and Pearl and Anna share some sort of common background insecurity?

I think your summer mottos is "Lots of friends are lots of fun."

Teachers were helpful, basically said that I'm doing the right things and it's to be expected in this developmental phase.

Pearl has gone totally apeshit, it's amazing -- she was this docile little goody-goody and now, WHOA! Bossy, mean, pushy (literally, just shoved sozlet for no good reason on the playground yesterday), demanding, etc. Her mom is a bit shellshocked.

Teachers printed out a couple pages from a book for all of us moms involved in the triangle about how all of this is very typical for 5 1/2 and 6, and it was an eye-opener not only for Pearl and Dolly and how they've been acting (if sozlet manages to skip this phase, I will be soooooo happy), but a HUGE eye-opener in terms of Anna. When we moved here she was 5 1/2, and most of the bad stuff happened last summer, when she was 6. Just turned 7 a couple of months ago, and things seem way better. Samples:

Other children mean a lot to Six-year-olds, but again the very nature of Six makes it hard for him to get on well with others. Two children together may make out very well, at least for a time, but three tend to make trouble. "Are you playing with So-and-so?" is a constant refrain. (The idea being, as it will be again at Eleven, that if you are playing with So-and-so you can't play with me.) Friends mean a lot to the child of this age... some, in fact, think so much of their friends that they may fall under the spell of someone (often, from the parents' point of view, unsuitable) friend. But much of any playtime tends to be rather stormy. Children of this age tend to be very aggressive both verbally and physically. They are also quarrelsome, belligerent, boistrous, argumentative, excitable, emotional. Since Six always wants to win, any kind of competitive game may give trouble, and the loser tends to go aay mad. Six wants to boss and win. This does not make him an easy friend to get along with... The Six-year-old is all to often rough in play. He threatens to go home, quarrels, calls names, pushes, fights. He definitely complains, as noted, that others are cheating and don't follow the rules. [b]And some are very mean to younger children.[/b]

I'm now feeling way better about Anna going through a specific, typical phase and not necessarily having any particular Problems.

My, my, my. Mother's of Sons have two advantages: No catfights and very little kittenish behavior.

Although, when I read "six likes to win" and gets mad if he doesn't, shades of the duckie ran through my mind.

FreeDuck--

Boys don't hiss and spit. They roar and slug it out--generally without appealing to authority.

The series of books by Ames and Ilg or Ames and Haber are very much worth reading. They are the "Your # Year Old" and do a great job of discussing age-typical behaviors and age-appropriate expectations.

Thanks for the recommendation. I boxed up my early childhood education textbooks a bit ago because there was no more bookshelf space -- may have to break that back open for a refresher.

Evidently the incident at the beginning of this thread is what started Pearl's transformation. That would make sense to me. I think her mom is handling this well, and not freaking out about it, and that it'll shake out to equilibrium at the end, but it was Pearl's goody-goodiness that gave me pause before any of this started. Always running to get an adult if anything "wrong" happened (including things that were actually just fine), always hanging around the periphery saying please and thank you which is totally nice but not how little kids operate. (While she was quietly and from a distance asking sozlet to please play with her thank you, sozlet was dealing with whomever happened to actually be in her face.)

So I think it was a classic suppression/ boiling point thing -- and she's still boiling.

She was just here for several hours, went OK. I was a bit sharp with her a couple of times. One time after a run of her being whiny about this and that, she and sozlet were both being snivelly about something -- I forget what -- and I said, "Oh lord, it's catching" and then said, "Pouting [indicating Pearl], pouting [indicating sozlet], whining [indicating Pearl], whining [indicating sozlet], NOT OK. Quit, both of you!" (The whole thing was said with a humorous edge and they both broke into giggles.) "Now, with NO pouting and NO whining, what do you need?"

Overall it went OK -- though sozlet now says she doesn't want to be in a class with Pearl that we'd discussed having the kids take together. Class yes, Pearl no. Ugh. I'll figure it out.