Girls Gone Wild

Gah.

I've written about this before, putting it here as it's in the same general category. (Girls being... annoying, and how to deal with it as a parent.)

Our next door neighbors have a girl (Anna) who is a couple years older than sozlet. They like to play together. Cool. There are issues, though.

Yesterday, we talked about getting together but it didn't work out, and that started a conversation between sozlet and E.G. about Anna. Sozlet said that Anna is often mean to her -- not like, hitting, but saying mean things, telling her that her toys are stupid, that kind of thing. What we've already seen is that Anna has told sozlet to lie to us, and that she always tries to get out of adult supervision. Whenever I check on them there is scrambling and guilty looks.

I haven't felt that it's been severe enough to prevent sozlet from ever playing with Anna, but it's hard to know what to do/ not do. I've told sozlet to tell me if anything happens. <shrug>

What I really don't like, and don't know how to handle, is that sozlet says that Anna is only really mean to her when they're completely away from adults (like in the far corner of the yard) or if she's at our house and I'm the only grown-up. :-? I can't "keep an ear" on things, and they do their utmost (Anna leading the way) to get out of visual range. I just don't feel right demanding that they stay in my line of sight... I don't do that for any of sozlet's other friends.

Sozlet has this thing (alluded to earlier, too, when she was pinned to the top of the stairs by another friend threatening to not be her friend anymore if she moved) where she can't seem to break out of what is happening to get me, though she tells me after the fact. I can keep working on that with her.

Anyway, she's here now, they're in her room, there's this weird vibe (panic and diving for cover) as I check in that I plain don't like and can't figure out how to deal with. Plus this whole thing where I make a request ("do whatever you'd like, but please clean up the mess before Anna leaves, so keep that in mind as you make the mess"), Anna covers her mouth and says something to sozlet, they have this exchange... I can't demand that she say everything in a way that I can see it, right? Even then, she's a duck-her-head-and-mumble type who is hard to understand in the best circumstances. I just can't stand this aspect of Anna seeming to see a prime opportunity to take advantage because I'm deaf, but I don't want to a) be unreasonable, or b) make rules that I can't enforce. :-?

Children!

I'd go Head-to-Head with Anna about "How to Be Polite to the Deaf." After all she is such a nice child from such a nice home and you want to help her be polite and poised in any given social situation.

After that educational situation, you'll be able to "remind" her not to be rude.

Boy, interesting. I just like to read the parenting stuff a) because it brings back so many memories of my girlhood and b) to continue evaluating whether I want to ever be a parent. You parent guys sure have tough jobs, you've got my admiration...

Anna sounds exactly like a friend I had at that age. Mine was an A too. My A got me to be a brat to my mom (I always had things to apologize for after she left) and we ALWAYS had stuff to scramble to hide if a parent came in the room. Usually we'd been having our toy horses or dolls or whatever kiss or get married and "lay down together" (which was about all we understood about what happened when you got married)...we thought it was pretty naughty.

Oh, and the talking behind the hand thing...Wouldn't you be justified in saying something?

Seems okay to me to say something; it's equivalent to whispering in front of someone, and I was ALWAYS told as a kid that it was rude to whisper in front of people. As a matter of fact, I think I mostly got in trouble for that when I was playing with A...! I think soz is playing with my little friend's doppleganger.

Cyphercat, that's really helpful! Part of this whole thing has been trying to figure out WHAT they're on about, and if it's something that's just part of childhood and fine or something I should actually be concerned about. Sozlet already knows the birds and the bees pretty thoroughly, but Anna's house (by the way her name does start with an A but I changed it, maybe it's the very same name! ) seems a lot more... proper?... than ours. Like, Anna isn't supposed to say "butt", and we say "butt" around here alllll the time...

If that's all that's going on, I don't particularly care.

I think you're right about whispering/ covering mouths. I can do something about that, and it's enforceable, because the point of it is what she does in front of me.

That goes with what Noddy says, too. Yeah, I can do that. <dubious look> I'll have to think about the approach a bit, but I think I can.

Do I involve the mom at all? After the fact, "By the way I mentioned to Anna that..."?

Sozobe--

I'd definitely get Anna's mother in on the need for Social Skills and Graces.

Anna is playing little power games and Anna needs to have her wings clipped.

Oh, good! I'm glad that was a little helpful, I thought part of the question might be what the secretive thing could be about...

It doesn't seem like it could anything TOO bad--they are only five (four?), so they're prolly not having their dollies shoot up or anything...I would bet it's some kinda slightly "naughty" birds and bees thing. It seems like all the kids I knew at the playing-pretend stage did some kind of thing like that with toys.

But I also had another friend who did the secretive thing-- she was a couple years older than me-- and with her it was that she wanted me to give her things and she thought a grown-up would have probably put a stop to it. She connived and guilt-tripped me into giving her a lot of my things before my mom figured it out and made her back off. She'd also been telling me a lot of weird stories about things she claimed had happened to her (can't quite remember what type of things, just stuff that made her seem like quite the victim so I'd feel bad for her). I guess I bring that one up just because I don't know that it's necessarily *totally* harmless. I was glad my mom was paying enough attention to wonder what was going on and put a stop to it.

I dunno, looking back it's weird how much manipulation and weirdness went on with some little girls. I wonder if you might have one of those types on your hands with Anna.

Additional thought.

If Anna were starting food fights in the kitchen or snooping in your bureau drawers or kicking the white woodwork, you'd call her on her rudeness.

Just because you're deaf doesn't mean you can't deal with rudeness to the deaf.

And she's our next door neighbor! <whimper>

That's definitely a huge part of it for me -- we plan to be here indefinitely, they do too, these gals are going to know each other for the next 11 years or so, probably. (They're currently five and seven.) So it's not just now, but preparing for when they're fifteen and seventeen...

Example of lying:

(I thought I'd written about it here before but a quick search didn't turn it up.) They were hanging out in the far corner of the yard and looked kind of furtive. I went to check on what was happening and there was definitely an increase in shiftiness. Anna whispered something in sozlet's ear and sozlet said, with a flat affect and a guilty forehead, "we're just playing house." Or something. It developed that they'd been tasting clover (which is fine with me, but evidently some rule against it at Anna's house) and Anna told sozlet to lie about it. :-?

Overall, though, I think where I am is: accept that kids will do some not nice stuff when adults aren't around, don't micromanage but keep an eye on things in a general way and make sure that sozlet knows she can tell me anything, and address the deaf-specific rudeness issues.



Yeah!

That's a great perspective-giver, thanks.

"a guilty forehead"

I'd be a-skeert to lie to you, soz, your mom-senses are highly refined...

Anna is a sneak... not a charming trait. Hard to be too mean about it when she is only seven, but that might grow to be a long term problem.

Best thing to do, imo, is reinforce with sozlet..."Anything you wouldn't do IN FRONT OF ME is probably wrong." A little conscience-building is required in dealing with the Annas of the world. They're sneaky and dealing with them directly rarely works. But sozlet still believes what you tell her.

Honesty and integrity are my basic core values. I would talk to both girls about the disrespect of talking behind their hands or whispering in general, in front of you or in front of their other friends. I'd also let Anna's mom in on the issue, particularly if you are close to her.

I would also tackle the lying issue with sozlet. She's hanging out with a kid who appears to have figured out that the easiest way to get around a lot of restrictions is to sneak. You might explain to little soz that she doesn't have some of the same restrictions because you trust her and she's never done anything to worry about needing to put all kinds of extra rules in place. Trust is a wonderful thing to keep.

Cyphercat--

Mama Tigers have radar. Lie-spotting is part of the machinery.

Soz--

Far better to deal with peer pressure at five and seven than at an older age. Unfortunately, dealing with the ethically impaired companions is a necessary social skill.

Just following along here mostly, as I don't have any experience with this situation. But this passage reminds me of my niece. Basically, her parents are very proper and strict -- table manners enforced strictly, also not allowed to say butt, told she's bad (evil, once) when she misbehaves, etc... Anyway, when she comes over to play she behaves a little bit like your Anna. When nobody is looking she does mean things to littler ones. She tells on my kids for doing things that they are allowed to do but that she isn't. Most of the time, I just say to her, Sally, my kids are allowed to say "Oh my God". And she gets a little curious face on and then goes back about her business. I can see how it would be confusing for kids to move between environments with very different sets of rules. It might be too much, but maybe you could get them together with you to make up a set of playdate rules that apply when she comes to visit. I'm doubting that, actually, as I type. Some of her instinctual secretiveness might just be ingrained and not really tied to expressed rules at all.

Anyhoo, I'm reading along with interest.

I was about to say something like that, free duck. I bet at least part of the sneakiness is from the way she and her parents relate, as opposed to how Soz and EG relate to Sozlet.

Also agree with J_B's post a few posts back about tackling the lying/sneak in combo with the trust thing, when you feel the time is right, Soz. Especially emphasizing the level of trust you already have for her. (I dunno... good luck!)

The Sozlet wouldn't look guilty or uncomfortable if core values weren't already in place.

True. Now would be a good time to reinforce them, though.

The lying thing happened once, and after a talk hasn't happened again. (That was last summer.) Sozlet's done some direct, "No, I won't do that" reactions with Anna (and others), which I've positive-reinforced up the wazoo.

The point with that was more back story of some of what's happened that causes me to not trust Anna. (I don't want to not trust a 7-year-old, but I also don't want to be naive.)

Sozlet does seem to have a certain level of awareness about this whole thing. Like, we went to a party at their house, and there were a bunch of kids, and things were rough/ wild. Sozlet kind of meandered back to us, and protested less than we expected when it was time to leave (we had to go relatively early). She said later something like, "Anna only really likes to play in a wild way, and I don't like to play that way." I forget exactly how it went after that, but there was general affirmation from both of us (E.G. and I) about good for her for setting limits, and that if anyone ever makes her feel uncomfortable she can tell us, etc.

I think I've separated this into a few issues (thanks!):

1.) Deaf-specific rudeness. Not OK, will deal with it. Enforceable because it's about what happens in front of me.

2.) Giving kids space. I know that not everything that happens between kids is sweetness and light, and that it's also important for kids to learn how to negotiate this without adult intervention. Sozlet has another friend (Pearl, from the beginning of this thread) who displays the results of parental over-involvement -- if anything doesn't go her way she runs for an adult. Not just major things, but anything.

3.) ...but keeping a general eye on things. There is still the element of sozlet seeming to "break the spell" after Anna is gone and tell me about what happened, but not always deal with it at the time, so I'll keep a general eye on things. That reminds me, I asked her yesterday why that happens -- why there will be a situation that's not OK that I only find out about afterwards. She said, in a very mature way, "It's because I think I can handle it." That goes back to #2 -- I do want to encourage that general sense of being able to handle something on her own (and I think she does manage to handle most situations on her own). It's valuable in a lot of ways.

But I do want to be there as back-up, just in case.

Absolutely--be available as backup for house rules. Just because you folks eat clover and talk about butts doesn't mean that you don't have a Don't Do List.