What is Love?

Yeah. I see what you are saying. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense. I think I finally understand why so many people say that religion is nothing more than a group of people brainwashing others to believe what they believe. I mean this exposes some very interesting aspects of choice, free will, forgiveness, unconditional love, all that stuff that get's taught in church. Huh, I think I'm going to need to chew on this one for a while.

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Setanta wrote:

I'm sure this will make me popular (insert silly eye-roll here), but here goes:

Love is a conscientious choice. We cannot choose to love anybody, but we can choose to love anyone who is not ultimately offensive to us. Problems seem to me to arise when people confuse attraction with love. One may be strongly attracted to someone, and claim that they are "hopelessly in love." Such an expression is revealing--people continue to cherish what i consider to be the foolish notion that love is the product of fate or obligation. We have a silly notion of "love at first sight," suggesting that you can know that you love someone simply by looking at that person--that is surely simply attraction, and failing to establish a relationship of mutual trust, respect and just consideration of the other, is nothing more than attraction. We are thought to be obliged to love our parents, our siblings or our children, but the concept of the alienation of affection gives the lie to that.

I think that as people mature, they can come to realize that they need only find a compatible partner, and that love can (although does not necessarily as a matter of course) grow from that. To that extent, i contend that we can choose whom we will love, always with the caveat that we won't likely overcome a deepseated repugnance for certain characteristics or behavior. For that love to grow, and persist, it is necessary to repect the other person, to trust the other, and to treat the other person at all times justly and with consideration. It ought to be needless to say, but i'll point out nonetheless, that the other person must reciprocate those regards.

Wow. That is very insightful. Thank you Setanta. Well, I know that one of the concepts taught in "church" is that "God" has someone chosen for you. So I suppose that would fall into the whole "love at first sight" theory. The ideal is that there is "one person" out there, somewhere, just waiting for you. How foolish this all sounds now that I actually hear myself saying it. This whole concept nullify's what you say about being able to "chose" whom we love. It puts a stipulation on "love" saying you are only meant to love this person that "God" has chosen for you. Anything else would be considered a sin, because it is outside of "God's will". It almost seems hypocritical to me in regards to the teaching that you are suppose to love "everyone", yet you are only allowed to love a certain person of the opposite sex in that certain way because that is what "God" has chosen for you. Oh boy...

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You know what I'm most afraid of with all this? Well, maybe it really doesn't matter to anyone's life but my own... I'm just scared of who I will become if I start letting go of all these beliefs. Though I guess to a certain extent I have begun to let go of some stuff. Otherwise I wouldn't be seeing some of the things I am now. Yet the questions just keep rolling in. Maybe A2K is not the place for me to be voicing any of this. If it isn't I apologize. I just have no where to go anymore. At least it feels like that anyway. Does anyone even really understand any of this? Have you ever questioned these things?

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We must go to very different churches, heph. I've never been told that God had anyone picked out for me. I don't think that's in the Bible, either. I just don't believe that at all.

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I want to hear the other side of this so that I can have a fair basis to step back and start to make some decisions on my own. I don't want people to tell me how to live my life anymore. I realize this is what I allowed the church to do for well... half my life so far. Which is why I'm not running back there for answers anymore. I am the only one who can come up with the answers for myself. I've had enough bible input to last a life time. I didn't have a fair chance at getting any other kind of input when I was younger because of who I was, what I went through, and how I processed things at the time. I'm not that person anymore, but I'm not the bible wonder woman anymore either. I'm just tired and I wish some days I could just shut my brain off. Even for a little while, but I can't, and I won't because there are things I need to know and understand.

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Eva wrote:

We must go to very different churches, heph. I've never been told that God had anyone picked out for me. I don't think that's in the Bible, either. I just don't believe that at all.

LOL yeah... you wouldn't believe some of the stuff I've seen and heard within the "church" environment. I think I've about seen it all. It's sad to think how much of that I took to heart and lived by. *shakes her head*

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Heph, what you need is to take three very good friends on a road trip.

Or take a year off and see the world. Clean break, lots of excitement, new experiences and midnight skinny dipping with some supple Italian boys.

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Don't tempt me... Razz

You have no idea how many times in the last few weeks I've thought some very similar thoughts. Even so far as to pack up my truck, come to the A2K gathering. Say hey... and then just kind of head off into the opposite direction as "home" when it's all over and see where I end up. My latest catch phase has been... "screw this... I'm heading for the hills!" LOL Then that logical side of me kicks in and says, "Oh reeeally now? And once you get there, how exactly are you going to eat? Have a roof your head? Hmmmm... maybe not..."

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We all go through times like this, heph. My father used to tell me, "God gave everyone their own brain for a reason." Don't listen to a church, a radio program, a psychologist or even your best friends when it comes to how to live your life. Think it through for yourself.

That said, there's no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water. Just because you've gotten bad direction from a church...and believe me, whatever you could tell me I could match!...that doesn't mean there isn't a God, or that He doesn't care. It just means that some of his followers have it all wrong. If you read the Bible with an open mind and no preconceived ideas, you will find wisdom there.

(Coming to the A2K gathering would be good, too! Can we persuade you? I'd love to meet you in person.)

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the thing is hephi, until someone comes along that's going to do your dying for you, noone should be telling you how to do your living.

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Hey, heph. When we hook up in Chicago in May, the first drink's on me, ok? Yeah, I understand the questions and yes, I think they're worth asking. I also think Lord E is a very wise man. There's nothing wrong with running for the hills and there's nothing wrong with searching the inner soul. Many, many folks have done a soul-searching, time for an upheaval, what the hell's my life been about up to now review - been there, done that, as have some other folks who will see you in Chitown in May. I think maybe we need to do a girl's night out, any takers?

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Eva wrote:

We all go through times like this, heph. My father used to tell me, "God gave everyone their own brain for a reason." Don't listen to a church, a radio program, a psychologist or even your best friends when it comes to how to live your life. Think it through for yourself.

That said, there's no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water. Just because you've gotten bad direction from a church...and believe me, whatever you could tell me I could match!...that doesn't mean there isn't a God, or that He doesn't care. It just means that some of his followers have it all wrong. If you read the Bible with an open mind and no preconceived ideas, you will find wisdom there.

(Coming to the A2K gathering would be good, too! Can we persuade you? I'd love to meet you in person.)

It's nice to know that others have struggled through this and made it through. I don't know what else to say except I don't hate God. I don't hate the concept of Him even. Hmm... I think that about sums it up.

Well, I guess we'll have to swap "church" stories at the A2K gathering then. I am looking forward to meeting you. Smile

Dys Wrote:

Quote:

the thing is hephi, until someone comes along that's going to do your dying for you, noone should be telling you how to do your living.

Ummm... that would have been some helpful information oh... about 17 years ago... LOL You are right dys. I know.

JB wrote:

Quote:

Hey, heph. When we hook up in Chicago in May, the first drink's on me, ok? Yeah, I understand the questions and yes, I think they're worth asking. I also think Lord E is a very wise man. There's nothing wrong with running for the hills and there's nothing wrong with searching the inner soul. Many, many folks have done a soul-searching, time for an upheaval, what the hell's my life been about up to now review - been there, done that, as have some other folks who will see you in Chitown in May. I think maybe we need to do a 's night out, any takers?

The first drink on you sounds pretty good to me JB! Smile

Thanks. We'll see where this road leads. I would like for it to lead where I was originally heading before I even thought of getting married. Out on the road for a year, like LE suggested. It will be some work to make that happen. But I think it can. It just might take a while to gain back what I lost. I'm all for a 's night out. That sounds like a lot of fun.

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love ain't nothin' but a four letter word

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Hmmm... djjd... That would be nice actually. LOL

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but it's true

love is an ideal and nothing more

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Hmmm... I'm interested in your view point. Care to tell me more? How did you come to this conclusion?

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I agree with Set's comments, in particular this part -

Quote:

We have a silly notion of "love at first sight," suggesting that you can know that you love someone simply by looking at that person--that is surely simply attraction, and failing to establish a relationship of mutual trust, respect and just consideration of the other, is nothing more than attraction. We are thought to be obliged to love our parents, our siblings or our children, but the concept of the alienation of affection gives the lie to that.

I think that as people mature, they can come to realize that they need only find a compatible partner, and that love can (although does not necessarily as a matter of course) grow from that. To that extent, i contend that we can choose whom we will love, always with the caveat that we won't likely overcome a deepseated repugnance for certain characteristics or behavior. For that love to grow, and persist, it is necessary to repect the other person, to trust the other, and to treat the other person at all times justly and with consideration. It ought to be needless to say, but i'll point out nonetheless, that the other person must reciprocate those regards.

Me, I think love is a product of a relationship, a continuing renewal of caring through an interchange of consideration, trust, respect; a renewing of listening to each other, growing individually at the same time growing as a couple.. not two mirrors, but two people communicating.

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it helps to be extremely cynical

love is just one of those oddly subjective things that are hard to pin down, like friendship or faith (look at the troubles on the S&R forum)

alot depends on what you want from love

love can be some idealized life of romance, flowers and passion

or it can be as coldly clinical as someone to look after you and pay the bills

look at people who put up with up abuse and still claim to love and be loved

love (like faith) attaches it self to our most base needs, without love we are nothing, nobody loves me, if i loved him more, he wouldn't hit me, cheat on me, etc, etc, etc

sense of self is more important than love in my book

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dyslexia wrote:

the thing is hephi, until someone comes along that's going to do your dying for you, noone should be telling you how to do your living.

Absolutely right, and perfectly put.

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djjd62 wrote:

it helps to be extremely cynical

love is just one of those oddly subjective things that are hard to pin down, like friendship or faith (look at the troubles on the S&R forum)

alot depends on what you want from love

love can be some idealized life of romance, flowers and passion

or it can be as coldly clinical as someone to look after you and pay the bills

look at people who put up with up abuse and still claim to love and be loved

love (like faith) attaches it self to our most base needs, without love we are nothing, nobody loves me, if i loved him more, he wouldn't hit me, cheat on me, etc, etc, etc

sense of self is more important than love in my book

djjd thank you for sharing this. Hmmm... cynical huh? Interesting. I don't know about that. I lived a lot of my life being cynical of everything and everyone. I was pretty miserable. No one could get close enough to even get to know "me". Then, living in the victim mentality, I blamed them. I felt it was their fault because they weren't trying hard enough to get to know me. I can understand the need to be cautious though. To not walk blindly into things. I can see why "love" would be hard to pin down. It's more than a feeling. I know that. It's more than just words.

I was watching late night tv about a year ago and I turned it to TLC. They had this show about male/female attractions and what causes it. They were talking about endorphins and how they give you that "rush" of feeling when you meet someone you are attracted to. How some people mistake that for love. The funniest part though was when they started talking about the people that go from partner to partner. They called them "endorphin junkies". LOL Said they would only stick with it as long as the "high" lasted. Endorphin junkies... what a hoot! Razz

I think that's where all those "love sick" feelings come from. An initial high of emotions. I definitely agree that a sense of self is more important than finding "love". Or maybe that could even be said as loving yourself, in a healthy way of course. Accepting yourself for who you are rather than looking to others to fill that need. A lot of people in this world look to fill that sense of "self" through other people. Heaven knows I've fallen into that trap more than a few times! There's almost an idea of not being complete until you find your soul mate or something.

It's sad to think that though. That we could somehow be incomplete without another person there in our life. That would definitely be a source of discontentment for just about anyone. I guess though I would like to understand something here. How cautious are you talking about being here? Are you talking about looking suspiciously at anyone that would want to get to know you? Are you talking about keeping everyone at arms length until some sort of something is satisfied in your eyes that they can be trusted? How does all that work?

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