50
   

What should be done about illegal immigration?

 
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 09:56 am
Nothing personal Walter.

But, from what I have heard, Germany's immigration policies are causing problems that are worse then the US is experiencing-- including an volatile underclass and racial tensions.

I don't think the US wants to emulate German immigration policy.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 09:56 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Apparently some in our USA local, state, and federal governments are going that route too. But do German citizens need work permits too?

No, they don't -- just as US citizens don't need Green Cards in America.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 09:57 am
Foxfyre wrote:
But do German citizens need work permits too?
No.

Foxfyre wrote:
If Walter believes I am a German citizen, and I am not, then is he still liable for hiring an illegal?


Well, I would see what nationality you are when you start working.
'Believe' is something related to church and religion, but not when engaging an employe or worker.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 09:59 am
ebrown_p wrote:
Nothing personal Walter.

But, from what I have heard, Germany's immigration policies are causing problems that are worse then the US is experiencing-- including an volatile underclass and racial tensions.

I don't think the US wants to emulate German immigration policy.


I don't think that we have an immigration policy at all.

However, I'm not sure to what problems you referring.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 09:59 am
ebrown_p wrote:
I don't think the US wants to emulate German immigration policy.

I'm not aware that Walter is defending our immigration policies. Indeed, if I remember correctly, he and I agreed early in this thread that the European Union's immigration policies are even worse than the United States'.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 10:01 am
Thomas wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
I don't think the US wants to emulate German immigration policy.

I'm not aware that Walter is defending our immigration policies. Indeed, if I remember correctly, he and I agreed early in this thread that the European Union's immigration policies are even worse than the United States'.


Well, this really is one of the two topics where the two of agree ...... completely, I mean (forgetting for this moment that Thomas is a Bavarian and liberal Laughing ).
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 10:02 am
Thomas wrote:
I agreed early in this thread that the European Union's immigration policies are even worse than the United States'.


I even don't think, they have any polica - just some unworkable and obscure ideas ...
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jul, 2006 10:03 am
.... and even worse laws and regulations.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 11:10 am
From Today's LA Times. The Institute's poll was framed as follows:

Which would you prefer:
1) Congress does nothing about immigration reform this year, or

2) Congress passes an immigration reform bill that provides for increased border security and tougher enforcement but also contains things you do not like, such as amnesty for current illegal immigrants?"

The majority went with 2.

I wonder how the majority would have voted if the poll had included a third option:

3) Congress passes an immigration reform bill that provides effective border security and effective enforcement, requires English, requires a loyalty oath to the USA and relinquishing of any dual citizenship, and provides tougher admission to citizenship for those here on work permits than is required for those applying for citizenship through traditional channels. Those here illegally would not be eligible for citizenship under any circumstances. Then a separate bill will set the standard for immigration quotas and more streamlined policies for application and the regulations for temporary work permits based on employer needs.

I would bet an expensive steak dinner that a pretty good majority would go with Option 3. I would bet a week's pay that a pretty good majority would rather have no bill at all than one that will make things worse than they are.

Amnesty Is Not a Four-Letter Word
Voters don't like amnesty, but they'll swallow some form of it to fix immigration.
By Tamar Jacoby, TAMAR JACOBY, a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute, is the coauthor of "Reinventing the Melting Pot: The New Immigrants and What It Means To Be American."
July 29, 2006


SOMETIMES A BOOGEYMAN is just that ?- a boogeyman. Consider the dreaded A-word: amnesty. It's hard to think of a word that scares today's elected officials more. Yet it turns out that voters ?- Democrats and Republicans ?- are much less knee-jerk about the word and what lies behind it than most politicians think.

In the last year or so, the Manhattan Institute has conducted several polls on immigration, and at first we stayed away from questions about what we thought was a misleading buzzword. But in the last few months, as more people have warmed to the package of reforms favored by President Bush and the Senate ?- combining tougher border and workplace enforcement with more worker visas and a path to legalization for the illegal immigrants already here ?- we wanted to put that package to the hardest possible test, and we started asking about the A-word.

What we found: No one likes amnesty. No one wants to reward illegal behavior or encourage more of it in years ahead. But voters are so hungry to solve the problem of illegal immigration, to retake control of the border and restore the rule of law where they live, that they are willing to accept even something they consider to be amnesty.

This is the way the Manhattan Institute and the National Immigration Forum put the question in a poll released this week: "Which would you prefer: Congress does nothing about immigration reform this year, or Congress passes an immigration reform bill that provides for increased border security and tougher enforcement but also contains things you do not like, such as amnesty for current illegal immigrants?"

The results: 55% of likely voters want to do the pragmatic thing ?- recognize this underground population and bring it onto the right side of the law ?- as opposed to 33% who would rather stand pat and ignore the problem. (In fact, Republicans favor pragmatism more strongly than Democrats. And last month, in an earlier poll, when the institute asked likely GOP voters what they thought about the Senate bill, 39% said that a package that included legalization was amnesty ?- but 75% supported it anyway.)

Other surveys find much the same thing, albeit without using the dreaded shibboleth. In the past three months, virtually every major media outlet has conducted a poll on immigration, and the results are remarkably uniform. Yes, Americans are deeply troubled by the illegal influx. Yes, they want tougher, more effective enforcement. But voters also see, and perhaps it's only common sense, that we as a nation cannot hope to solve the problem of illegal immigration without dealing with the 12 million illegal immigrants already living and working here.

The Gallup Poll, Washington Post/ABC News, Time, NBC News/Wall Street Journal, CNN and the Republican National Committee have all come to the same conclusion: Between two-thirds and three-quarters of the public would be willing to let illegal immigrants stay in the country and earn eventual citizenship, provided they meet requirements such as paying back taxes and learning English.

The problem is the other 20% to 25% ?- and, survey after survey show that's the extent of their numbers. A USA Today poll in May painted their portrait in vivid detail: Mostly male, white and without a college degree, they believe immigrants are bad for the economy; they want to build a wall along the border; and they adamantly oppose allowing illegal immigrants to become citizens. Only about half are Republicans, and if we assume that GOP voters make up roughly half of the electorate, then these diehards account for no more than a quarter of the party.

But many Republican candidates, particularly in the House, are convinced that this group is more intense ?- more concerned, more motivated, more likely to vote on the basis of this single issue ?- than anyone else likely to go to the polls. So they have become the tail wagging the dog of the national debate about immigration, leading many House Republicans to conclude that blocking reform could be a political winner.

But what if this Republican calculus is wrong? Our new poll suggests that some voters, albeit still a minority, are likely to punish Congress if it fails to deal with immigration before Election Day. Right now, they blame both Democrats and Republicans. But that could change, and if anything, House Republicans could be setting themselves up for a fall. How can they travel around the country all summer, hold hearings and insist that immigration is the most pressing domestic policy problem we face, and then come back to Washington in September and sit on their hands? They risk losing not only Latinos and swing voters (both of whom are more likely than other voters to be put off by the GOP's anti-immigrant rhetoric) but also staunch Republicans (who feel most strongly, by a 75% margin, that it is "very" or "extremely important" for Congress to come to grips with illegal immigration this year).

Will most ordinary Americans ?- beyond that dedicated 20% to 25% ?- base their vote this November on immigration? Probably not. But it could play into a larger sense of dissatisfaction with the federal government. According to our new poll, voters feel that Congress is not doing "a good job at solving the problems that are important" to them ?- and 44% might just stay home from the polls or vote against their member of Congress as a result.

Which would you rather see your representative do: Let the tail wag the dog and ignore this pressing issue, or risk being attacked with the A-word for facing up to the failed policies of the past ?- doing what needs to be done, whatever the consequences?
SOURCE
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jul, 2006 11:36 am
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/29/nyregion/29student.html?th&emc=th

July 29, 2006
Senegalese Teenager Wins Right to Study in the U.S. By NINA BERNSTEIN

It was the unexpected success of his East Harlem high school robotics team in April that forced Amadou Ly, 18, to reveal his secret: He was an illegal immigrant from Senegal, left at 14 to fend for himself in hopes of completing an American education, but caught instead in what seemed like a losing battle against deportation.

But when the secret became front-page news in The New York Times, scores of strangers rallied to his side. To pressure the Department of Homeland Security on his behalf, volunteer lawyers built a team that included 6 senators, 23 members of the House of Representatives, Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg and the Senegalese ambassador. Word spread that even the man in the Oval Office had weighed in.

And yesterday, Amadou carried home the prize: a student visa that will allow him to stay in the United States legally and go to college.

"It's like a dream has come true," he said, already picking out the English and math courses he will take at the New York City College of Technology in the fall. "Every day in this country is like a gift. To tell you the truth, all the people who really helped me, I won't be able to thank them all ?- but I'll do my best to make them proud."

In the end, Amadou's story won over everyone, said Ilona Cohen, a lawyer with the well-connected law firm WilmerHale, which orchestrated intensive lobbying in Washington while in New York lawyers at Latham & Watkins and the Legal Aid Society brainstormed on strategy. Officials at Immigration and Customs Enforcement, part of Homeland Security, agreed to drop the deportation proceedings, opening the way for Citizenship and Immigration Services to grant the student visa.

"Public officials really put pressure on ICE because they had the foresight to understand that the country really needs people like Amadou," Ms. Cohen said.

Yet so many agencies, complex rules and expiring deadlines were involved that until yesterday the outcome still seemed uncertain, said Amy Meselson, the Legal Aid Society lawyer who had added Amadou to a caseload of hundreds of unaccompanied minors facing deportation when he showed up in immigration court alone in April.

Last week, everything seemed to hinge on renewing Amadou's passport from Senegal, which had been confiscated by federal officials in 2004 and meanwhile had expired. Government lawyers were willing to lend it briefly to Ms. Meselson, and she described a frantic cab ride with Amadou to the Senegalese Consulate last Friday, minutes before it closed. Senegalese officials made a special exception in extending it.

Another last-minute wrinkle arose when the college official expected to sign the necessary foreign student forms turned out to be "incommunicado in a cabin in Maine," she said. A substitute was eventually found to do the job.

Part of the urgency, Ms. Meselson said, was that officially, Amadou was only days away from accumulating 180 days of illegal presence in the United States, a milestone that could have barred him from returning for three years if forced to leave.

"It's totally amazing," she said, reflecting on how things turned out.

Amadou's mother brought him from Dakar on a visitor's visa when he was 13 and left him here after the visa expired. He did odd jobs to buy food and school supplies, and took shelter with a family friend who could sign his report card when he enrolled at Central Park East High School. Deportation proceedings against him began in November 2004 after a state trooper in Pennsylvania reported him to immigration authorities. Amadou had come to the trooper's attention as a passenger in a car accident.

But last year when Amadou's underdog robotics team beat those from the city's elite schools and was invited to compete nationally in Atlanta, he revealed that he had no government-issued identification to board a plane. While his teammates flew to Atlanta, he set off on an 18-hour train journey to join them. By the time he arrived, response to the article had drawn wide news media coverage, as well as a shower of money for college tuition.

At the time, the lawyers thought his best chance was passage of a measure known as the Dream Act, which offers a path to citizenship to some young people. But the measure is languishing in Congress in an impasse of competing immigration legislation.

On the one hand, Ms. Cohen said, Amadou's story is "a triumph of good government." On the other, she added, "it's about the nature of a system that only provides relief for one kid ?- with well-connected attorneys ?- at a time."

Copyright 2006 The New York Times Company
0 Replies
 
jla314
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Aug, 2006 10:55 am
The Answer is very Simple--
Attrition through Enforcement. If employers faced stiff fines and/or jail time, illegals would just go back home. Right now--the US is a magnet for illegals. We could save billions of taxpayer dollars on fences.

BUT HOW DO WE GET WASHINGTON TO FULFILL THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC? Does anyone have an answer?

The President/Executive is not enforcing our immigration laws. And, Congressional campaigns are financed by Big Business. Therefore, Congress has no interest in the American worker and our future.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Aug, 2006 11:31 am
jla314, First of all, WELCOME to A2K. Your message is the same as mine; our government hasn't been enforcing laws already on the books. That congress meanders to write new laws is just a waste of time - and money.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Aug, 2006 09:08 pm
c.i. has a stake in the game. Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah. c.i. has a stake in the game.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2006 08:01 am
cjhsa wrote:
c.i. has a stake in the game. Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah. c.i. has a stake in the game.
Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2006 10:07 am
Quote:

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/7900/zwischenablage00sc9.jpghttp://img245.imageshack.us/img245/7595/zwischenablage01as6.jpghttp://img176.imageshack.us/img176/6938/zwischenablage02nq8.jpg
[...]
Just as Mexicans are the largest immigrant group in the United States, Americans are the largest immigrant group in Mexico. And of the 4 million to 6 million American citizens who live outside the United States, the U.S. Bureau of Consular Affairs says, more are in Mexico than in any other nation.

In this former fishing town on the shores of Lake Chapala, Americans have created a community that bears a striking similarity to immigrant communities in the United States. A critical mass of Americans here has made this place feel a lot like -- well, like America.

Think waffles for breakfast, imported Wisconsin cheddar cheese, WGN-TV. Think Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, Catholic mass and a 30,000-book library -- all in English.

"There's nothing you can't get," says Steimle, who moved here almost four years ago for the climate and the affordability, and because after years in the Southwest she was comfortable in a Hispanic culture. Steimle says that some days she hears less Spanish spoken in Ajijic than she did in Sante Fe.

... ... ...


Source: Chicago Tribune, 23.08.2006, Section 2, page 1 & 6; online version of that report.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2006 10:40 am
I wonder if the American immigrants in Mexico cause the same sort of bigoted folks to make statements like these:

Quote:
Buchanan Argues For Immigration Moratorium To Preserve White Dominance
In his new book, State of Emergency, Pat Buchanan argues for "an immediate moratorium on all immigration." Why? To preserve the dominance of the white race in America. Buchanan explains on pg. 11:

America faces an existential crisis. If we do not get control of our borders, by 2050 Americans of European descent will be a minority in the nation their ancestors created and built. No nation has ever undergone so radical a demographic transformation and survived.

Indeed, Buchanan argues quite explicitly that only whites have the appropriate "genetic endowments" to keep America from collapsing. From pg. 164:

In 1994, Sam Francis, the syndicated columnist and editorial writer for the Washington Times…volunteered this thought:

"The civilization that we as whites created in Europe and America could not have developed apart from the genetic endowments of the creating people, nor is there any reason to believe that the civilization can be successfully transmitted by a different people."

Had Francis said this of Chinese civilization and the Chinese people, it would have gone unnoted. But he was suggesting Western civilization was superior and that only Europeans could have created it. If Western peoples perish, as they are doing today, Francis was implying, we must expect our civilization to die with us. No one would deny that when the Carthaginians perished, Carthaginian civilization and culture perished. But by claiming the achievements of the West for Europeans, Francis had passed beyond the bounds of tolerance. He was summarily fired.

Buchanan goes on to praise those who, implicitly or explicitly, talk about the genetic superiority of the white race, including John Rocker of the Atlanta Braves, Bell Curve authors Richard Hernstein and Charles Murray, and Al Campanis of the Los Angeles Dodgers. (Campanis said that blacks "may not have the necessities to be, let's say, a field manager, or, perhaps, a general manager." He added that blacks were often poor swimmers "because they don't have the buoyancy.")

Buchanan calls Francis views on white racial superiority the "Great Taboo." But refusing to acknowledge it, according to Buchanan, is "like not telling one's doctor of a recurring pain that could kill you."

Buchanan has been showered with attention from cable and network television to spread his book's message.


Quote:
Buchanan: Hispanic Immigrants Not Assimilating Into America Because They Embrace ?'Rap Culture'
The media is lavishing attention on Pat Buchanan and his new book that argues that whites are the only race with the "genetic endowments" to prevent America from collapsing.

Yesterday on Hannity and Colmes, Pat Buchanan asserted that Hispanic immigrants were "not assimilated into America" because they were adopting "rap culture."

Rap music, according to the U.S. State Department, is "an original American art form." It has its roots, however, in African-American culture, not white culture. For Buchanan, apparently, that means it's un-American.


(link to video at the source . )
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Aug, 2006 06:15 am
The following is a pure opinion piece, but it is eloquently stated and, given the inertia in Washington over this issue, it speaks to a growing grass roots movement and also the racism issue.

August 31, 2006
Leave Racism Charges Out of Immigration Debate
By Mark Davis
Farmers Branch, Texas.

The name suggests a babbling brook running through fields of freshly baled hay. The reality is Interstate 35 running through blocks of suburban homes and businesses northwest of Dallas.

But there's still plenty of babbling. Farmers Branch has become the latest epicenter for the type of shrill protest that arises whenever anyone suggests getting serious about our immigration laws. First came Hazleton, Pa., where Mayor Lou Barletta pushed the Illegal Immigration Relief Act, punishing landlords who rent to illegal aliens and businesses who hire them. English became the town's official language, eliminating polylingual legal documents and signs.

Communities across America are considering doing the same, but it is in Farmers Branch where City Council member Tim O'Hare stepped forward to say that illegal immigrants are responsible for many of the city's problems.

There is nothing in his slate of Hazleton-style proposals that would make life one speck more difficult for the numerous city residents who are English-speaking legal immigrants.

But with annoying predictability, along came the catcalls of racism. The League of United Latin American Citizens and other voices of Hispanic advocacy rushed to slap a clumsy label of bigotry onto anyone agreeing with the new proposals.

"Farmers Branch is now going to be a city of hate," moaned former LULAC national president Hector Flores. "The Statue of Liberty must be crying right now."

Maybe she's just gagging from such ridiculous rhetoric. If Lady Liberty has anything to truly cry about, it is the sad fact that immigration has deteriorated from something that made America great to something that threatens its very future.

In the 50 years from the Industrial Revolution to the Great Depression, millions of people flowed into America dedicated to embracing our culture, learning our language and assimilating into our value system.

Those traits are all too rare today, even among some legal immigrants. Add in millions of people who thwart our nation's laws the moment they arrive, and you have the crisis that faces us today.

Our porous borders are proof that the federal government lacks the spine and resolve to close them to illegals and deport the ones we find. Millions of Americans, starving for reforms that respect our laws and borders, will take whatever they can get, even if it's just some get-tough measures from City Hall.

U.S. Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison of Texas seeks to dissuade communities from enacting immigrant-related local measures, arguing that such matters should be addressed in Washington.

Well, wouldn't it be a grand day if her constituents had a lick of hope that something might actually happen? In this mealy-mouthed era of guest worker programs and a "welcoming country," even Republicans cannot be counted on to stand up for effective borders and the rule of law.

Let's have our federal officials butt out of what cities might wish to do in the absence of leadership from beneath the Capitol dome. If towns in Texas or Pennsylvania or anywhere else want to enact measures that deal with a problem Washington doesn't have the stomach for, let's have those debates in those towns.

But let's have them rationally.


All who oppose laws cracking down on illegals must purge all baseless, slanderous reflex cries of racism from their arguments. I know that the vast majority of illegals in America are from Latin America. But in many places (like Farmers Branch, for example), so are the vast majority of law-abiding, English-speaking immigrants who are part of what make their communities and our country great. They are welcomed with open arms by Mr. Barletta, Mr. O'Hare and all of us who want tougher immigration laws.

This is not racial. It is behavioral. And as long as the federal status quo, from the president on down, refuses to provide remedies, local governments will be tempted to pick up the slack.

SOURCE
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Aug, 2006 10:08 am
Foxfyre, This is almost too funny.

Conservatives lament that White people are losing their majority status. Conservatives attack the loyalty of American citizens with Hispanic surnames who are politically active. Conservatives are attacking multiculturalism-- the very idea that other cultures (other than the dominant white Christian culture) should be accepted and tolerated.

At every immigration protest I have been to, the Confederate flag was prominantly displayed by folks in the other side.

It is not Liberals who are bringing racism into the discussion.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Aug, 2006 10:09 am
Well I didn't expect you to be objective about it ebrown. And you rarely disappoint my expectations.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Aug, 2006 10:19 am
As I have said before, if the immigration debate was simply a debate aabout the balance between Law and Order and compassion, I would be very happy. Even in this discussion I offered to frame the debate this way.

The biggest problem with this is that your side (present company included) keeps making ethnic/racial based arguments.

The second biggest problem is that your side-- although it says that following the law is the most important thing-- often advocates breaking the law.

It would make one think that this is just a political smokescreen for some other goal.
0 Replies
 
 

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