What should be done about illegal immigration?

Call me a racist - I'm not. I just want the laws enforced.

But you're a traitor. You wish to subvert the law.

cjh, That's because you haven't been reading my posts on this very topic.

AGAIN: It doesn't matter how we personally feel about this issue, because our government does not enforce the laws they have established on this issue. They are again debating this issue, but it doesn't look like they are ready to write the legislation on it.

How people look at illegal immigrants has many sides - not only in the US but in most developed countries.

My position is very simple; treat all humans with respect and dignity.

You may interpret that any way you wish.

Disney is also highly insensitive to dwarfs, pirates, and deer.

I don't really feel this way. I was joking. I think it is unfair to the American worker.

And the mexican worker.

After all, if they didn't come over here illegally they would send busses to pick them up

Ts, ts: now the illegals arrive even as deads .... and CATHOLICS

Churches will show Mexican saints' bones

Well I can't find my log in for the Tribune. But I think all those on the pro enforcement side would agree that "Mexican" and "illegal" are not synonymous despite the fact that a large majority of illegals are Mexican. A large number of LEGAL immigrants in this country are former Mexicans and they are mostly as American as any other Americans of various races, ethnicity, and/or original nationality. I don't know what the thesis of the linked article might be, however.

That's not true at all.

You keep talking about the "elephant in the room". The elephant in the room is that Hispanics (and other non white christians) are not considered "mostly as American"... in fact they are dangerous to the conservative idea of the "true" American culture.

If it were about "pro-enforcement"... why are you trying to keep Spanish-speaking American citizens (who are American citizens) from voting in the language of their choice. This has nothing to do with breaking the law and everything to do with protecting a narrow view of American culture.

Why are American citizens being attacked as "invaders"? Being a part of the political process is the most important part of being American... yet when Hispanic Americans (most of whom have been here for generations) assert their opinions that "illegal" immigrants should be treated as human beings... the right refuses to accept that these American citizens are Americans.

You yourself said it Foxfyre-- For you the problem is multiculturalism. You think that anyone who doesn't fit in your narrow view of what it means to be American- is a threat. This includes American citizens of Hispanic descent.

Don't whine about me playing the race card. Anyone reading this can check it out... It was YOU who brought up the fear you have of multiculturalism in the context of the immigration debate.

Citizens (and I mean citizens) are empowered in this country to build lives meaningful to them this includes choosing whatever parts of their (or any other) cultural they want. Many immigrant communities have done this just fine -- there are Greek schools, Othodox Jewish communities and neighborhoods where Italian is still spoke. All of them are American.

We live in a multicultural society. Whether you like it or not-- American citizens are Americans. There are no "mostly as American" Americans.

The 'thesis' is that


Actually, such has nothing to do with legal or illegal, immigration or native American Indian or whatever.

I am a foreman at work. Today I had two mexican nationals for helpers. They were telling me how they are being targeting while driving their cars because it is illegal for them to have a drivers license. Because when they are caught their cars are taken from them and sold at a police auction with no compensation. Then they can't drive to work or drive their family around. Those cars represent alot of hard work to the owners and alot of money to the city.

They are the hardest workers with the best attitudes I have ever experienced and they are not looking for ways to f**k you over behind your back.

When they found out my car had broken down we got into an argument over them driving me home, wich was a long way and they lived four blocks away. I finally gave in and let them give me a ride but insisted on gas, they wouldn't have it.

You are determined to make this a race issue ebrown. For the huge majority of the pro-enforcement side of the issue, it isn't despite how many times you try to play that card. There is a uniquely American culture no matter how much you wish to deny it, and multiculturalism as policy is still destructive and has been everywhere it has been tried.

No Foxfyre. It is YOU who are determined to make this about something more than law enforcement versus compassion.

I fail to see why your fear of multiculturalism has to do with law enforcement. Law enforcement that is targeted based on "culture" seems very wrong.-- but you brought it up, so let's go with it.

Multiculturalism is aknowledging, accepting and even appreciating the many cultures, from Latinos, to Jews to African-Americans who have contributed to the rich American culture while maintaining parts of their own culture.

America has a long history of debate over who can be an American-- and far from being destructive-- every time we expanded the definition of who can be a full American, America has been stronger. We gave citizenship to former slaves (over the objection of Conservatives). We gave women the full right to vote (over the objection of Conservatives). We let Chinese Americans become full citizens.

Every time that America is more open and more accepting, it gets stronger and life gets richer.

So the question you are discussion is the same as ever (with slightly different players). Who can be an American.

Multiculturalism says that people who are Jewish can go to school in public schools that are not implicitly Christian-- and it is the Jewish community that has been fighting this battle. Conservatives include this in their attack on multiculturalism as if they think that Jews are somehow less then American.

Fortunately, although Foxfyre thinks her culture is somehow superior (or more American) to that of other American citizens who may be Jewish, black, homosexual orSpanish-speaking-- we are all equal under the law. We all get equal votes (and many in my culture are feeling more motivated than ever to use that vote).

The conservative attacks on Multiculturalism, especially as a justification for harsh policies and race based code words represent the ugliest side of the conservative movement.

Your phrase "almost as American" is very telling. You think some citizens are more American than other citizens.

Thank God that we all get one vote.

No. Multiculturalism is retaining all the 'old country' ways as opposed to blending what you bring culturally seamlessly into the American culture you wish to adopt. Multiculturalism demands that one's former culture be recognized and no requirement be imposed that one adopt the new country's language, laws, customs, or processes. You show me a country anywhere in which this situation exists that is not the worse for it.

That one chooses to be 100% American in no way negates appreciation for ones origins and heritage and it is great fun to celebrate these and invariably many from different origins will join in and learn from it. It is not great fun to try to make such celebration mandatory for everybody else.

If you can't see the difference, you are far too liberal to be educable.




And the debate culminated in laws, Constitutional protections, and a change in cultural attitudes so that anybody can now be included as an American with all that implies. Those that keep trying to fight a war that has already been won are both destructive and patronizing to the very people they pretend to wish to help.



Anybody can be an American who wishes to be an American and is willing to adhere to US laws and policy to do so.



See my former comments on Multiculturalism. I never implied anybody should not be able to go to the school of his/her choice--that's a restriction liberals mostly impose--and you built a huge straw man even trying to bring this one up.



I think it is telling that it is you who keeps bringing up the 'us' and 'them' kinds of arguments instead of the 'we' that includes everybody. And I wonder if I'll live long enough to see a liberal like you be able to formulate an argument without putting ad hominem insults into it?



Your translation of "almost an American" from my statement of "mostly American" is far more telling than any straw men you're trying to build out of this. But I won't even try to explain the difference again as you have demonstrated that you are incapable of comprehending it.



Amen to that.

What about the United States.

We recognize the rights of many cultures without the "imposing" the requirement that they adopt our custom, processes or in some cases language. I don't think you want to argue that we are the worse for it.

The Jewish experience in the United States is a perfect example. Many Jewish Americans hold to old traditions that are not followed by mainstream America. Jewish people, instead of accepting the dominant culture have fought to make sure that Christianity doen't dominate public schools or court houses. Jewish people have fought for the right to take off holy days that most Americans don't recognize.

Some communities even go further. There is a community here that is predominantly orthodox Jewish... all of the stores close on Friday night for the Sabbath. Many of the signs are in Hebrew. There is even a symbolic "fence" around this community that consists of walls and at times cords which is fully supported by the wider community and satisfies Sabbath regulations.

Would you say that any of these things are "destructive" to your view of American culture? I feel strongly that these cultural differences should be accepted, supported and celebrated.

American culture has adapted to meet the needs of this distinct minority culture. Even where you are (my fantasy is that you are in a mostly white suburb in the South East) go look in the Grocery store at a large number of the packages. There will be little symbols that explain whether this food is acceptable under Jewish dietary laws.

So we have communities which publically do business in a language other than English. We have people holding to different cultures, and demanding employers accomidate a different set of holidays.

There are many other examples... I don't see how anyone of them makes America worse.

In America individual communities are pretty free to do whatever pleases them so long as what they do is legal and does not infringe on the rights of others. I have lived in numerous small communities, each with its own 'flavor' most of my life. And almost all were really great. This is not what I meant. I honestly don't think you want to understand any point of view other than your own, however, so I won't try to explain again.

We have many businesses in our area that are predominantly Chinese. Even whole shopping malls are Chinese. I'm often addressed in Chinese even though I am Japanese. When my Chinese friend was alive, he even had arguments with shop clerks that spoke in Cantonese, because he was Mandarin. One Asian mall close to hiway 880 even has some Japanese restaurarnts amongst the many Chinese and Vietnamese ones. There are Indian, Korean, Japanese, Italian, Chinese, Meditteranian, German, vietnamese, and Afghan restaurants in our area that we frequently eat at.

This country is a melting pot with all cultures; and we just must get along with each other. Language is the least of our problems.

A Long Flight of No Return
Illegal Immigrants Are Deported From Va. to Native Countries

By N.C. Aizenman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, July 25, 2006; A01



The passengers settled uncomfortably into the narrow seats of the Boeing 737 as a woman in a blue uniform launched into the pre-flight safety speech that has become a ritual of modern air travel.

But her tone made it clear that she was no flight attendant, and this was no ordinary flight.

"Keep your seat belts on at all times. Don't touch any of the buttons above your head, and don't touch the window shades," the woman, a U.S. marshal, commanded in Spanish. "Once we're in the air, we'll give you something to eat, and then you can go to the bathroom-- with permission . Did you hear me?"

The passengers -- 105 men shackled at the wrists and the ankles--grumbled their assent. Then they peered out the thick, blurry windows for a last glimpse of Virginia. Once, they had been hopeful newcomers to the United States. Now, they were about to leave for good on a deportation flight for illegal immigrants run by the Department of Homeland Security.

As the plane began to hurtle down the runway, many of them let out a cheer. It was their first time on an airplane.

In seat 7A, Jose de Jesus Galea, 37, stared morosely out his window, unmoved. The burly Salvadoran pet store owner had called Virginia home for 21 years. It seemed incredible, he said later, that he would never again see the flat, forested landscape that was receding rapidly from view.

Just as strange was the thought that he would soon be back in a country he last saw when he was 17. The year was 1985, El Salvador was in the throes of civil war, and Galea had just been discharged from one of the army's most ruthless battalions. Pressed into service when he was 14, Galea said he was taught to torture the unit's captives by pushing needles under their fingernails. He had buried innocent civilians alive, and he was haunted by guilty flashbacks of their screams. Now he was being deported back because of a drunken assault.

Deportation is a fate that befalls only a fraction of illegal immigrants, though such flights may become commonplace if some of the more restrictive immigration reforms pending in Congress are adopted.

Although U.S. authorities turn away or deport more than 1.6 million people attempting to cross the border illegally every year, once an immigrant manages to sneak into U.S. territory, the chances of getting caught are minimal. In 2004, the most recent year for which statistics are available, authorities deported only 104,000 immigrants who had been in the United States for three days or longer before they were apprehended. That's less than 1 percent of the nation's estimated 12 million illegal immigrants.

Those who are deported often come to the attention of immigration officials only because they commit a crime. Authorities in the Washington area often wait until they have a critical mass of deportees, then charter a plane to fly them to a detention facility near the U.S. border for final transport to their home countries.

Such was the case with the men aboard the somewhat worn, plain white aircraft rolling onto the runway at Dulles International Airport one recent afternoon, its destination Alexandria, La.

Watching over them were 16 marshals, who had reason to be wary. About 45 percent of the deportees had been convicted of violent crimes. Others had committed offenses as minor as public drunkenness. Although most were Salvadorans, there were natives of the Dominican Republic, Mexico, Guatemala, Jamaica and Honduras.

The men's appearance was as diverse as their backgrounds. There were fresh-faced teenagers wearing baggy jeans that drooped around their ankles because the marshals had confiscated their belts. There was an older man dressed in a deeply rumpled business suit that made him seem at once dignified and pathetic.

And stretching a long leg into the aisle from seat 9C was Oscar Barilla, 25, whose chest and back were tattooed with the gothic letters and fearsome symbols of his gang, Mara Salvatrucha, or MS-13. Barilla consented to be photographed for this article, but, like the other 15 gang members aboard, he refused to be interviewed.

Galea, the pet store owner, said that after he sneaked into the United States, he found in Virginia not only the psychological help he was seeking after the atrocities of El Salvador's civil war, but also a fresh start. He was granted political asylum and started working in a cafeteria. He said he enrolled in night school and received a high school diploma, then a bachelor's degree in theology. He married a U.S. citizen and had a son.

But he also garnered a series of convictions for drunken driving. Then, one evening in 2002, he broke a window to get into his house. His wife called 911.

Galea maintained that his wife mistakenly thought an intruder was in the house. The commonwealth's attorney said that when police arrived, Galea's wife told them that Galea was drunk and that she was concerned because he was upstairs in bed with their son and might be molesting the boy.

When the officers entered the bedroom, a scuffle ensued. Galea said he had been confused and was acting in self-defense. Unconvinced, a jury convicted him of assaulting and unlawfully wounding two officers--securing Galea a four-year prison sentence and a seat on the deportation flight afterward. "I will miss everything about the United States," Galea said with a sigh. "I had my whole life here."

In the rear of the plane, in seat 17B, Tulio Estrada was lamenting not how much he was leaving behind, but how little.

The 25-year-old prep cook said he had been full of plans when he stole in from Guatemala. He was going to earn enough to pay a doctor to cure his mother's aches and his little brother's mental illness. He was going to save up enough to buy a small business or maybe some land back in Guatemala. Nine years later, he was still living in a one-bedroom rental apartment in Arlington with two other men, barely earning enough to send his mother money for basic expenses.

One evening last fall, Estrada said, he went to a wedding reception and got into a drunken fight. Someone called police. Now he was being shipped back to Guatemala in the same white polo shirt and work pants he was wearing when he was arrested. Like the rest of the passengers, he carried no other possessions save for a red mesh sack the size of a pillowcase packed with a change of underwear, a Bible and shampoo.

"Sure, I had planned on returning to Guatemala someday. But not like this -- with nothing," he said sadly.

The plane reached cruising altitude. Several marshals began passing out box lunches.

Rafael Llano, a tall Dominican with dreadlocks, took his box with a scowl. A resident of the United States since he was 8, Llano said he felt out of place on the flight.

"I went to school here. My mom, my dad, all my brothers live here," Llano, 22, said in unaccented English. "I'm as American as the president. The only difference between us is that he has a piece of paper proving it. It makes me so angry."

Llano said he was a permanent resident but lost that privilege when was convicted on drug charges and sentenced to five years in prison. Now, he said, "I'm going to a place where I'm a stranger, where I don't know nothing from nothing."

He did not plan on staying long. "I have to find my way back. I have three kids there. I have no choice."

The plane began its descent. A hush fell over the passengers. It touched down with a gentle bump. This time, there were no cheers.

© 2006 The Washington Post Company

Twenty one years and apparently no attempt to become a citizen.

Pathetic.

The track record of these guys doesn't read as exactly exemplary, stellar citizens does it? Under even the mostly wrong and destructive Senate bill currently in the mix in Washington, I doubt any would pass the clean nose test to apply for citizenship. Which could very well be why none have. Anybody would wouldn't be eligible to apply for citizenship, I don't think we want back.

The following comment certainly is just about the UK and gives only gives an idea about what is going on in Europe re illegal immigration - but I think, it's worth to compare ...

Immigration's real frontline
The best way to deal with illegal workers is to call a halt to our tolerance of exploitative businesses.

(NB: You can move freely within all 25 EU-member states, with some restriction in some countries towards the citizens of the new member countries.)

Guardian leader: Britain is not an island

Anybody here illegally should be thrown in jail for the number of years they have been here illegally. Then they should be deported immediately. And during the time they are in jail all social services should be denied, other than emergency services. And those who aid and abet illegal immigration should be subject to prosecution with a fine of $1,000,000.