50
   

What should be done about illegal immigration?

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jun, 2006 05:33 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
You know Foxfyre, Republican does not equal "American".

It is a mistake to think so... and there is a good chance that the Republican monopoly on power (which doesn't represent the nation as a whole) will come to a dramatic end in the next couplr of years.

Don't forget that nearly half of the country voted for John Kerry in the last election and more than half of us voted for Al Gore before that.

The majority of Republicans doesn't matter to anyone except for you and Dennis Hastert. It is the majority of Americans that will prevail in the end.


You said in your previous post something to the effect that you don't care what the majority of Americans think.

I think the Republican monopoly on power is every bit as representative as the Democrat monopoly on power in numerous previous administrations - 2 years of Clinton, 4 years of Carter, 4 years of Johnson, 4 years of Kennedy, etc. Only President Bush of all Republican presidents has enjoyed a GOP controlled Congress which has performed admirable on several fronts and has not performed admirably on several fronts, but then so did did many previous Congresses.

Having said that, I would just remind you that Democrat does not necessarily equate with "American" either.

And of course the GOP will relinquish the reins at some point. But I think the Democrats have to come up with something more than bashing the opposition, the politics of personal destruction, and obstructionism to win the hearts and minds of the American people.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jun, 2006 05:47 pm
1. Hearing a conservative complain about the politics of personal destruction always makes me laugh (thanks for the laugh).

2. When you are in a political fight (as we are) it is very nice to have the majority agree with you. I think you are referring to when I said that what the majority thinks doesn't matter to my views on morality.

3. On the immigration front it is the Republicans who are bashing the opposition (including other Republicans) and who will likely practice obstructionism by refusing to let the Senate bill come up for a vote on the floor of the House.

We may get a glimpse of who is winning the hearts and minds of the American people tonight... and we will get have a very good idea in November.
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jun, 2006 03:41 pm
One thing we should all be able to agree on is securing our border and deporting ALL illegal immigrants that commit a crime.

The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants in the United States

Since the issue is so large and difficult to deal with, I propose we seperate the issues involved and handle them on a one by one basis instead of arguing about the things we can not agree upon and getting nothing done.

1.) Secure border
2.) Deport Illegal Immigrants that commit crimes

then

3.) Deal with Illegal Immigrants that are law abiding people (besides the whole illegal immigrant thing...)
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jun, 2006 03:45 pm
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
One thing we should all be able to agree on is securing our border and deporting ALL illegal immigrants that commit a crime.

The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants in the United States

Since the issue is so large and difficult to deal with, I propose we seperate the issues involved and handle them on a one by one basis instead of arguing about the things we can not agree upon and getting nothing done.

1.) Secure border
2.) Deport Illegal Immigrants that commit crimes

then

3.) Deal with Illegal Immigrants that are law abiding people (besides the whole illegal immigrant thing...)

Yes make them all legal and deal with the crime on a case by case basis.
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jun, 2006 03:58 pm
I suggest we simply deport any illegal that has commited one felony or 3 misdemeanor no matter what the crime(s).

From the link which which you must have missed wrote:

There was an average of 3 years of committing crimes such as DUI, assaults, or drug related offenses prior to being apprehended for a sexual offense.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jun, 2006 04:11 pm
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
I suggest we simply deport any illegal that has commited one felony or 3 misdemeanor no matter what the crime(s).

From the link which which you must have missed wrote:

There was an average of 3 years of committing crimes such as DUI, assaults, or drug related offenses prior to being apprehended for a sexual offense.

Yes of course, they should all be sent back to North Dakota where they came from.
0 Replies
 
SierraSong
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jun, 2006 08:53 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
We may get a glimpse of who is winning the hearts and minds of the American people tonight... and we will get have a very good idea in November.


I was satisfied with that 'glimpse'. Were you?
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jun, 2006 11:45 pm
Well I was hoping for an upset... but the result wasn't unexpected in a district where the Republicans start with a 15% lead-- and not to troubling when the good guys only lost by 5%. But a loss is a loss and to answer your question, no I am not happy. But I am also not despairing either.

The Republicans are generally good at getting out their base, but whether this works in more balanced districts this time is going to be interesting to see.

What is clear is that the culture of corruption theme is not going to have the punch the Democrats hoped.

I think that the "Republicans are controlled by extreme views" message may-- and in immigration, as well as abortion, gay marriage and flag burning, the Republicans are helping with this message.

The key to November is that the Democrats need to get out their base as well as the Republicans do. Immigration is supported by most Americans... but the immigration fanatics are mostly on the right and are driven to the polls by the issue. The challenge for us is to get the majority of people who support our side but don't feel strong enought motivation to get to the polls.

The Republicans House driven by anti-immigrant conservatives though are taking a big political risk of being seen as the majority party of obstructionists. The fact that they control both houses of Congress means they have no one else to blame for the fact they loudly made this the most important political issue-- and then accomplished nothing.

Most Americans want this issue resolved and most Americans say they will accept a path to citizenship for people who have roots here. The fact the Republicans clearly don't have a reasonable alternative that isn't either uncompassionate or prohibitively expesnsive will come out.

I think my not only has the moral high ground, we are also on firm political ground. I am willing to be patient to see how badly the Republicans hurt themselves on this and other issues.

The Republicans are swinging far to the right before the election and this seems a desparate move. We will see in November and perhaps I will be happier then.
0 Replies
 
ralpheb
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jun, 2006 12:43 am
It is true that most Americans support immigrstion. But what is overlooked is the issue of ILLEGAL immigrants. Illegal immigarants put more of a burden on society then they benifit society. And, I'm sure that it is only the true law abiding people that are crossing illegally. If they didn't have anything to hide they would do it legally. Perhaps if they spent all this enrgy trying to get to the US into changing the policies in their home countries, the world might be a better place.
0 Replies
 
Endymion
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jun, 2006 07:09 am
Africa to Europe
What Solution?
__________________

I believe that it's time for us to look at the Immigration problem from the other side of the razor-wire fence.

------------------------------------------------------------
All the below found on BBC - which I gathered after reading this page:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/5029230.stm featured first below
----------------------------

Authorities in Barbados are still trying to discover how a boat carrying the bodies of 11 men was found adrift off the Barbadian coast a month ago.

Police believe the men were mostly from Senegal after finding an Air Senegal ticket on board and a note left by one of the dying men.

In the note, the man speaks of his family in Bassada, Senegal. "Please excuse me and goodbye", he says.

It is thought the men were attempting to reach Spain's Canary Islands.

Coastguards brought the 20ft (6m) unmarked boat into port at Bridgetown after the gruesome discovery was made by a local fisherman in April.

Barbados police have said the cause of the deaths was starvation and dehydration.

Local journalist Tim Slinger has been covering the story for The Daily Nation newspaper.

He told the BBC's Network Africa programme that strong Atlantic currents had probably diverted the boat and that DNA tests would be needed to identify the men.

Things are bad. I don't think I will come out of this alive. I need whoever finds me to send this money to my family
(Note from Diaw Sounkar Diemi published in El Pais newspaper)

Evidence on the boat, and calls to the Barbadian authorities from anxious relatives as far afield as Senegal, Spain and Portugal, have helped police and forensic experts to piece together details of the men's fatal journey and how they ended up so dramatically off-course.

The investigation into the tragedy is being handled by several countries and Interpol.

Difficulties

Some 50 people were thought to have been on board when the boat left Praia in Cape Verde last Christmas.

The men, from Senegal, Guinea Bissau and Gambia, had paid a Spaniard based in the Canaries a total of some 50,000 euros ($64,000) for the journey.

The intended route was Cape Verde to the Canary Islands but it is thought the boat ran into difficulties and the Spanish man was contacted.

According to Spanish newspaper, El Pais, the boat was then towed for some way before being left to flounder with no fuel and little food and water.

Reports in El Pais suggest the tow line had been hacked with a machete.

Interpol has asked police forces around the world to try to locate the Spaniard.

For now, the bodies of the men are being kept in a morgue in Bridgetown while the investigation continues.

Better life

Thousands of would-be migrants attempt to make the hazardous sea crossing from Africa to the Canary Islands or Spanish mainland each year.

Some 7,000 migrants have reached the Canary Islands in the Atlantic Ocean this year alone, but many die while attempting to make the perilous journey.

Earlier this month, Spain announced a three-year diplomatic drive in West Africa to try to stem the flow of African migrants to Europe.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/5029230.stm

---------------------------------------------------------


I am 19 years old and left Cameroon on 21 May 2005. I got to Melilla one week ago. My journey is quite short compared to other people's.

I stayed two months in the forest.

When you're in the forest you don't have peace of mind.

One day police come with helicopters, the next the gendarmes. You are always running, running, running.

I left all my family behind in Cameroon because we are poor. We don't have anything.

I decided to be a better person so I could lift them up in the future.

'I will do any job'

I told them that I was going to Europe so they sold our family land and gave the money to me. That was our only family land.



Migrants in Melilla detention camp
The migrants in the camp spend their days listlessly playing cards

The money took me to Morocco.

I'm not disappointed to be here in the camp.

I know I must first stay here sleeping in a tent, but I know that one day I will be sent up to big Spain.

That's where I will start up my own life.

I will do anything in Spain, any job at all.

I don't intend to go back with empty pockets. I would look like less than an ant. My family would say I squandered their money for nothing. That would be a very sad and painful encounter.

Mohamed Balde, Guinea
Mohamed Balde
News of expulsions back to Morocco is spreading, causing concern in the camp

Everyone here in the camp, all of us, we'd rather die here than be sent back to Morocco.

Being sent back to Morocco is certain death.

My friends and I spent two years getting here.

We spent nine months in the forest, living off the bits of food Moroccans gave us.

Can you understand what it's like to live like that - the police with their knives and machetes attacking us?

Patrick Thomas, The Gambia

Patrick Thomas
I was studying agriculture and economics in Gambia

In Morocco it's very hard to live. No food, no place to sleep.

And the police when they catch you they take your money from you, they torture you and in prison they only give you half a piece of bread each day.

My arm is bandaged because I caught my arm on the barbed wire as I was climbing over the fence.

And the Moroccan police beat us. The Spanish police just catch us and take us back.

In my country people live in poor conditions.

If you're like me and your parents are not alive and you are taking care of your sisters, you must try and come to Europe.

Risking life

I was studying agriculture and economics in Gambia.

My father died and my mother was taking care of my schooling but then she died. Then my older sister took care of me but three years ago she had an accident and she also died.

So now I'm the only one taking care of my family.

I have no one to help me, but a lot of people I must help.

I have four sisters and three brothers living there. When I am in Europe I will help them so they can continue their education.

I am willing to risk my life to get to Europe. I can't see any other solution.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------



Eyewitness: Migrants suffer in Morocco
Xavier Casero, a doctor working with Medecins Sans Frontieres, tells the BBC News website about his experience treating African migrants in Morocco trying to get into Europe through Spain's enclaves of Ceuta and Melilla.

Xavier Casero says action to help the migrants is needed urgently

I worked in Morocco for a month and a half at a our clinic in Tangier, but most of my work was in a 4x4 vehicle, treating immigrants who live in the forest close to the border with Melilla.

They live in the middle of nature, in the wild, with no houses, no nothing. We carry all the medicines and medical supplies in the car with us.

They are very pleased when we arrive, because nobody else is looking after them. The only other people who visit are the police and the army. The immigrants aren't suspicious because MSF has been working there for three years, so they know us.

The typical patient is a person who has tried to jump the fence into Melilla, and is wounded and maybe traumatised.

Open wound

For example, the last man I treated was 24 years old, from Mali (the majority of them come from Mali, Senegal and Cameroon, or Nigeria). This man had a very bad head wound, after a Moroccan soldier had hit him in the head.

A Malian illegal immigrant in Morocco with a bandaged head
The immigrants won't go to hospital because the police are around

It was an open wound, and when I arrived in the forest it was eight hours after he'd been injured, and he was bleeding badly. He lost consciousness, and was very traumatised.

I saw cases like this every day - every time I went to the forest, I would find four, five, six cases like this.

Another problem is the lack of hygienic conditions in the forest. There's no potable water, nowhere to go to the toilet - they go to the toilet in the middle of the forest, close to where they live.

They live with wild animals, they have no shelter - they make little shacks with plastic sheeting - it's filthy.

If you visited, you might think it was impossible to live like this, but they do it. It's also overcrowded - there are 400 to 500 people in a patch of about 400m sq in the forest.

Forest births

I've seen a lot of women give birth in the forest. About 10% of the immigrants are women, and around a quarter of these women are pregnant. (Another quarter have small babies.)

I have no-one to help me, but a lot of people I must help

What motivates the migrants

In a month and a half, I saw six deliveries in the middle of the forest with no medical help, apart from us, but often we arrived too late to help with the birth.

One delivery I saw, the woman had a disease called eclampsia, with hypertension and convulsions. I remember the woman was convulsing - it was very dangerous.

We took her to hospital, and this story has a happy ending. She recovered, and the baby was fine.

But it was lucky we arrived. The immigrants won't go to hospital because the police are around - they prefer to stay in the forest, hidden from the security services.

Occasionally we do take patients to hospital, and the staff there always take them in, because we only take the most serious cases. We've never been refused, but they do it reluctantly.

We have to supervise their treatment, because sometimes the hospital refuses to treat the patients in the same way as the Moroccan patients. I know this is a serious allegation.

Often they tell us that MSF has to pay for the medicines for the patients. It's a form of discrimination.

It's true that Moroccans have to pay, but I know that there are some cases when they will tell us we need to pay for medicines they give freely to Moroccan patients.

'Many die on the way'

It is difficult work, mainly because of the working hours. We often work for 24 hours - we have to be available at night, on Sunday mornings, whenever there is an emergency.

European governments have to do something
But for me personally, this work is very fulfilling. This last experience in Morocco has changed my mind about the immigrant problem.

Sometimes you need to see the problem from inside - from close up, to change your mind. I had a different opinion than I do now.

The situation of these people is terrible - they have nothing. I don't know what the solution is, but the problem needs solving quickly because people are suffering.


And those who arrive at the border are only 10% of those who set out. Many die on the way.
----------------------------------------------------------



Dying to get to the promised land


By Chris Morris
BBC News, Melilla

Despite their fortifications, Spain's enclaves remain a tempting target for migrants desperate to reach Europe. The last two weeks have seen mass assaults on the border and many have been injured or even killed while attempting to scale the razor wire fences, as Chris Morris reports from the enclave of Melilla.

You can see them lurking in the shade of the trees - through the foliage, and through the razor wire which marks Europe's border with Africa. They are waiting for their time, for the chance to reach their promised land.

A glove hangs on the wire fence at the border
Migrants use gloves and cloth to protect hands against razor wire

Even among all the other places where rich and poor collide, this one stands out.

Melilla is an oddity - a tiny European enclave on the African continent. Part of Spain since the 16th Century, its faded colonial grandeur is protected by high fences and armed forces.

Every night a helicopter hovers overhead, another vain attempt to man the barricades of fortress Europe.

The migrants - young men from the war zones and poverty traps of sub-Saharan Africa - have one thing in their favour: strength in numbers.

'Good odds'

Every so often, hundreds of them storm the fences, equipped only with makeshift ladders hewn from the branches of trees, and with cloths tied around their hands - to ease the pain of razor wire slicing through flesh.

Six young men were killed at the fence this week, some of them shot by Moroccan security forces on the other side of the border.

It's not necessarily the end of the journey for those who manage to cross

But many more than six made it across the frontier - and that makes the odds pretty good, they say, when you have risked your life over and again just to get this far.

Hasan is 25 years old, from Ghana. He's been travelling across Africa for three years to reach Europe's doorstep. Three years! These are strong people, with the determination to succeed.

Many of them leave their homes in West Africa as teenagers, with no clearer plan in their minds than to head north.


Everyone knows roughly where Europe is. They travel well worn routes up through the deserts of Algeria and Morocco - dangerous roads populated by smugglers, thieves and less-than-welcoming official receptions.

They all seem to know someone who hasn't made it - road accidents, fights, beatings have all taken their toll. But for the toughest, and perhaps the luckiest (although they don't always look that way once they get here) the instinct for survival and improvement is the driving force.

Saturation point

"I'm happy now I'm here," Hasan says, as he stands in a small crowd outside a holding centre run by the Red Cross on the Spanish side of the fence.

"I want to work, and I won't let them take me back."

Moroccan soldiers build a camp on the other side of the border
The Moroccan authorities have been accused of dumping migrants in the desert
He's been in Europe for 10 days, and he's dreaming of the job he'll find to help fund his family back home.

But Spain may have other ideas. Hasan is another statistic, another illegal alien, and the authorities here have just sent migrants from third countries back to Morocco for the first time, under the terms of an agreement signed in 1992, but never before implemented by anyone.

Melilla, they say, has reached saturation point. It's the same story along the coast in Ceuta - Spain's other toe-hold on a continent it wants to keep at arms length.

A flood tide of illegal migrants has upset the cosy calculation that inequality can be sustained without cost.

It's happening all along Europe's southern frontiers. Here by land and elsewhere by sea they come - in rickety boats, barely fit to float and packed to the brim. To Malta, the Canaries and the Italian island of Lampedusa. In Malta even the army is outnumbered by illegal immigrants. And patience is wearing thin.

But, let's face it, this is the latter-day invasion we've brought upon ourselves. In a world of instant communications and global images we can't hide our affluence from anyone. The news has reached the smallest African village... and who can blame them if they start heading in our direction?

The response here? Well, the fence is being improved, going up in height from 10 to 20 feet. I can't imagine it will make much difference, the ladders will simply get longer.

But it does mark a toughening of official policy. It's a sticking plaster solution though, not a cure - and everybody knows it.

Medieval siege

Nothing much will change until development brings more prosperity and more jobs to Africa - one of the great challenges of our times. This tiny land border feels a long way from Bob Geldof and Making Poverty History. But this I suppose is what that is all about.

For now we are left with the grainy pictures of the ladders being thrown against the fence, our modern version of the medieval siege. The bravest climb first, and take their leap into the unknown.

As darkness falls at Melilla's holding centre, small groups of migrants begin to queue for food.

Two plastic bags swirl in a sudden breeze and dance on the wind, as if in mock combat.

So many Europeans take what they have for granted. So many Africans are dying to get their share.


---------------------------------
From Endy

Well, I found all that this morning and although I told myself ages ago to keep off the political boards (it ain't good for my morale) I had to post.
Of course we already know this **** goes on
So - what can be done?



Solution?
http://www.approtec.org/images/tech/pump_photo.jpg
Irrigate Africa

It's time for us to share the wealth. End the spending of Billions and billions on war and nuclear progress and make Africa green again.
It can be done.

Just imagine a united, world wide effort of this sort. It's not a fantasy.

Artists like Peter fend (American) have had their work on African irrigation stripped out of galleries by the CIA - for even suggesting it.

Oxfam Greenpeace and others are begging for it

While Africans continue to face an early death, do we ever think when we run water from a tap - that 2.5 Billion people STILL do not have any clean drinking water?

Sending aid each time there's a draught isn't f.......... good enough.

If people had a life where they were born - if they just had some hope - some belief that the lucky West were DOING SOMETHING to help them solve their problems - if they could farm their own land and create their own wealth - what would happen? END OF IMMIGRATION.

There are at lot of things that I am 'against'
But as I get a bit older I realise that its much more positive to be 'for' something.
I'm 'for' the irrigation of Africa, the Middle East, India and South America.

Environment wise - it might just save our planet.

It would bring a huge stability to both Africa and the Middle East
where people grow up deeply effected by their environment

It would be a healing process - one which black peoples around the world are owed - because it was us (I'm British but I'm also talking about 'all of Europe' and the United States) who damaged them early on - by manipulating, de-humanising and suppressing them.

While everyone, including Britain, are yakking on about what we should do with these immigrants - I say, lets give them reason not to want to leave their country.

Lets get together scientists, engineers, and those with a vision for the future (there are plenty out there) and lets DO SOMETHING.

It may be wrought with huge problems - but surely it's the right attitude.
0 Replies
 
Endymion
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jun, 2006 07:12 am
By the way, I think the poll is very short-sighted
Prevention over Cure

Irrigate Africa (see previous post) - that's my vote
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jun, 2006 07:37 am
It is a fact that the world's poor are large in numbers and desire to not be poor. I think it is also a fact that the rich can do much to improve the lot of the poor, but should the rich impoverish themselves in the process, then all will be poor and there will be none with the resources and ability to help.

Many of the poorest people live in countries with vast natural resources that should provide wonderful opportunity. That would include people in most or all of Africa and also Mexico and most South American countries.

By comparison, many European nations such as the Netherlands or Great Britain are relatively poor in natural resources, yet their people prosper. The key is in a government that values and implements human rights, free trade, and capitalism with policies that allow the best from all.

I think the policy of the free world should be to put pressure on those nations that are ruthlessly despotic or corrupt or which implement such bad policy that they create poverty or prevent its relief. The most humane policy in the world is to encourage and help people to improve their own lot in life rather than demanding or destroying what others have. The reality is that quality of life requires that most of these will need to do that where they are.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jun, 2006 07:50 am
ENDYMION wrote:
By the way, I think the poll is very short-sighted
Prevention over Cure

Irrigate Africa (see previous post) - that's my vote


It has been pointed out that the poll does not provide all the necessary options, though I think there is enough elasticity in the responses to accommodate most options. I do wish I had added an 'other' to allow for additional options. The mods would not allow alteration however after there had been a response to the initial post.

The immigration issue is complicated and there are multiple causes and effects no matter what policy is implemented. The poll won't allow multiple responses, but we and our government are wise to consider them all.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jun, 2006 07:53 am
Foxfyre wrote:
By comparison, many European nations such as the Netherlands or Great Britain are relatively poor in natural resources, yet their people prosper. The key is in a government that values and implements human rights, free trade, and capitalism with policies that allow the best from all.


Ehem, you speaking about what period here? (Thatcher isn't governing the UK since 10 years - they've got a socialist government :wink:
And even if there's now a conservative-right-wing government in The Netherlands, I sincerely doubt that they'd liked to be called to follow capitalism.)
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jun, 2006 08:01 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
By comparison, many European nations such as the Netherlands or Great Britain are relatively poor in natural resources, yet their people prosper. The key is in a government that values and implements human rights, free trade, and capitalism with policies that allow the best from all.


Ehem, you speaking about what period here? (Thatcher isn't governing the UK since 10 years - they've got a socialist government :wink:
And even if there's now a conservative-right-wing government in The Netherlands, I sincerely doubt that they'd liked to be called to follow capitalism.)


Are you seriously trying to say that the Brits and Dutch people are not capitalists? Are you seriously saying that you are not? I'm not talking about the form of goverment at all here but rather policies that provide people the ability to utilize capitalistic economics to accumulate wealth for their own benefit.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jun, 2006 08:36 am
Well, okay - 19 top billionairs own 80% of Dutch wealth, that's capitalism. I stand corrected.

And it's a similar situation in the UK as well, I suppose.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jun, 2006 09:10 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Well, okay - 19 top billionairs own 80% of Dutch wealth, that's capitalism. I stand corrected.

And it's a similar situation in the UK as well, I suppose.


It would appear that socialism is not the great equalizer it is claimed to be then would it. Smile
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jun, 2006 09:20 am
Foxfyre wrote:

It would appear that socialism is not the great equalizer it is claimed to be then would it. Smile

3 of the top 10 are of same protestant family, and most of the 19 top billionair families also protestant - no chance for socialism.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jun, 2006 09:39 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:

It would appear that socialism is not the great equalizer it is claimed to be then would it. Smile

3 of the top 10 are of same protestant family, and most of the 19 top billionair families also protestant - no chance for socialism.


I would guess that most Brits are also Protestant and you said they were socialist. I don't think religion or even the form of government is necessarily the problem though I do believe those who follow Judaism, Christianity, and some other religious faiths are perhaps more likely to especially value and promote freedom and human rights. I don't think any people anywhere, of whatever religion or no religion, are likely to not appreciate these things once they've experienced them however.

And again, people who practice human rights, free trade, and capitalism generally prosper quite nicely wherever they are. This is what I think the compassionate of the world need to be looking at.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jun, 2006 09:57 am
Foxfyre wrote:

I would guess that most Brits are also Protestant and you said they were socialist.


Both is wrong: they - the Christian part of them - are mainly Anglicans* and I've said that their government is still socialist :wink:

*"Anglicans uphold the Catholic and Apostolic faith" - according to their own website
0 Replies
 
 

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