What should be done about illegal immigration?

gustavratzenhofer wrote:

What was the ultimate decision regarding the Japanese?

Buncha mogoloids.

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gus, If you're asking me, the Japanese have integrated into American society very well. Most of our children are marrying across culture, and I'm guessing that the Japanese in America will be completely mixed into the American fabric within the next two or three generations.

Before and right after WWII, the Japanese were the second largest Asians in America. We are now the smallest, and getting smaller.

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Thomas wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
Will you accept poor people moving into your house without your permission and demanding whatever services you are providing for your family? And if they move in without your knowledge and stay awhile, will you just adopt them because it is inhumane to move them out?

No, but that's not what they do. They move into their own houses and get their own jobs, and I have no problem at all with this. As to government services, I have no problem denying them to illegal immigrants, just as they can currently be denied to legal immigrants. (On one of the papers I signed to get my Green Card, I had to acknowledge I won't be eligible for welfare, Medicaid, etc.)

Well it may not have escaped you, and obviously did not escape fbaezer, and did seem to escape Walter that I was using the 'house' as an analogy only. The fact is though, Thomas, had you not applied for a green card and had just slipped in past whatever guards were around and took up residence, the courts here would be requiring civil authorities to provide you emergency health care, offer you low cost subsidized housing, educate your children, and you would be eligible for almost all services and benefits availed to citizens. If you qualifid as one of a 'minority group' your kids would even be given preference for college admissions, etc. I know illegals are receiving these benefits for in various ways I have been on the front lines providing some of them.

You have been absolutely discriminated against because you opted to come here legally. This is the injustice that many of us see.

Fbaezer sees the issue as prejudice against Mexicans. I think the huge majority of Americans have no such prejudice, but it is our border with Mexico through which most of the illegals are coming. If it was Canada or Russians illegally funneling their unemployed, poor, or other hardship cases through those common borders, we would be equally as offended. By no means are the only illegals coming across the southern border Mexican, but the fact remains that most of them are.

I again refer to the 1986 immigration which is so similar to the current Senate bill that it very much appears that it is lipstick put on the same pig and resulted in a fourfold increase in illegal immigrants and precipitated the current backlash against illegal immigration.

I am with the group who says we don't do the same dumb thing again but come up with a better idea that is both humane and effective. The Senate's bill is humane, but nobody with any appreciation for history can believe it would be effective.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Before and right after WWII, the Japanese were the second largest Asians in America.

Well yeah, they like totally dominated the UCLA basketball team in '49.

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dys, Don't forget football.

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Cicerone Imposter wrote:

Before and right after WWII, the Japanese were the second largest Asians in America. We are now the smallest, and getting smaller

I know. I saw your pictures at the Chicago gathering, CI, and I noticed the top of your head was at a level with J_B's kneecap.

I had always thought you were about six feet tall.

Maybe your are. Is it possible that J_B is fouteen feet tall?

I await your answer.

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Foxfyre wrote:

I think the huge majority of Americans have no such prejudice, but it is our border with Mexico through which most of the illegals are coming.

I agree with you on both sentences, but with a grain of salt:

Most of the staunch anti-migrant Americans (a minority within US citizens) do have the prejudice. A minority, indeed, but very vocal.

And most of the illegals do cross via Mexico: around 55%.
The other 45 % arrives to the US with a visa, and remain there after the visa expired.

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gustavratzenhofer wrote:

Cicerone Imposter wrote:

Before and right after WWII, the Japanese were the second largest Asians in America. We are now the smallest, and getting smaller

I know. I saw your pictures at the Chicago gathering, CI, and I noticed the top of your head was at a level with J_B's kneecap.

I had always thought you were about six feet tall.

Maybe your are. Is it possible that J_B is fouteen feet tall?

I await your answer.

Well I don't know. Our best friends are the Hamamotos and they aren't short. I mean they aren't NBA material maybe, but they aren't short.

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fbaezer wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

I think the huge majority of Americans have no such prejudice, but it is our border with Mexico through which most of the illegals are coming.

I agree with you on both sentences, but with a grain of salt:

Most of the staunch anti-migrant Americans (a minority within US citizens) do have the prejudice. A minority, indeed, but very vocal.

And most of the illegals do cross via Mexico: around 55%.
The other 45 % arrives to the US with a visa, and remain there after the visa expired.

But where are you getting your data on staunch anti-migrant Americans? I get out quite a bit and I've never met one. Not one. Honestly.

Americans who are pro-legal immigration and anti-illegal-immigration are not anti-migrant.

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gus, Let's just say I wasn't the shortest stick in that group. Maybe the oldest, but not the shortest. Wink

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Minuteman's Simcox Slams Senate Bill

Breaking from NewsMax.com

Chris Simcox, president of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps, issued the following statement on the passage today of an illegal alien amnesty bill by the U.S. Senate:

"The vote to give amnesty to millions of illegal aliens by the United States Senate today, should it pass into law, would ensure that the status quo is maintained: the borders would remain wide open and the attractive nuisance of endless welfare and social programs at the expense of the American taxpayer would remain. Those climbing over the backs of those waiting patiently to abide by our laws; and instead breaking the law, illegally entering this country, and committing document fraud; those not paying taxes; and those hiring illegally would be granted full amnesty. American citizens would, of course, still be subject to prosecution for document fraud and tax evasion. This sends the message that if you play by the rules, you suffer; if you enter the United States illegally, you are not subject to the rule of law. (Story continues below...)

"The American people do not trust the government to grant amnesty now and secure the borders later. We already went down that road in 1986, and the borders remain wide open still today.

"Their constituents are watching, and these Senators will pay the price come election time. We are now focusing our attention on the House of Representatives where we do not expect amnesty to pass. The House is more respectful of their voters, as they stand for re-election every two years. The arrogance and cavalier disregard of the will of the American people by this Senate will not be forgotten-there will be an accounting. The American people are still sovereign in this country, not a gaggle of politicians pandering to their special interest donors.

"The existing border crisis is a dereliction of duty by those entrusted with this nation's security, sovereignty and prosperity. The U.S. Senate just left America vulnerable to a tsunami of migrants at the border, to terrorist infiltration and to an unprecedented crime wave by drug smugglers, thieves, rapists, human traffickers and murderers who cross our frontier at will-and whose bravado and aggression will now increase with the Senate's message of our apparent national weakness.

"But the Minutemen will remain on patrol, at our posts-and continue to build border fencing and barriers on private land with private donations until the U.S. government performs its most basic constitutional duty to these United States, and safeguards the people and protects the territorial integrity of America."

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Foxfyre wrote:

fbaezer wrote:

Most of the staunch anti-migrant Americans (a minority within US citizens) do have the prejudice. A minority, indeed, but very vocal.

But where are you getting your data on staunch anti-migrant Americans? I get out quite a bit and I've never met one. Not one. Honestly.

Americans who are pro-legal immigration and anti-illegal-immigration are not anti-migrant.

Yeah, sure. Like Simcox.

Read his statements and dare to say that's not anti-migrant.

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fbaezer wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
fbaezer wrote:

Most of the staunch anti-migrant Americans (a minority within US citizens) do have the prejudice. A minority, indeed, but very vocal.

But where are you getting your data on staunch anti-migrant Americans? I get out quite a bit and I've never met one. Not one. Honestly.

Americans who are pro-legal immigration and anti-illegal-immigration are not anti-migrant.

Yeah, sure. Like Simcox.

Read his statements and dare to say that's not anti-migrant.

Well I don't know him personally. And I don't know anybody who is taking their marching orders from him either.

Do you not have a pretty anti-American columist or commentator operating in your part of the world? I don't assume that these angry ones speak for the Mexican people. I hope you don't think an angry idiot here speaks for us either.

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I am not going through this thread, or other, to quote several members of this community praising the vigilantes. I haven't read that from you, Foxyfire, to your credit.

But please, don't pretend that you don't see them. It's not one, not a sect. It's a horrible attitude shared by millions. A few million. Your allies in this process.

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fbaezer wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
fbaezer wrote:

Most of the staunch anti-migrant Americans (a minority within US citizens) do have the prejudice. A minority, indeed, but very vocal.

But where are you getting your data on staunch anti-migrant Americans? I get out quite a bit and I've never met one. Not one. Honestly.

Americans who are pro-legal immigration and anti-illegal-immigration are not anti-migrant.

Yeah, sure. Like Simcox.

Read his statements and dare to say that's not anti-migrant.

How does anti ILLEGAL immigrant equate to anti LEGAL immigrant?

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My friend Paulina works hard cleaning houses for grateful customers (who pay her pretty fair wages for a job well done). Her son has been here for near all of his life, is doing well in high school and is indistiguishable from his classmates.

You are opposing giving them any hope of a just way to keep their lives that they have worked hard to build intact. You are advocating making their lives even more difficult in hopes they will slink out in desparation.

I have other friends who are in mixed-status family (one of them, and half of their kids are here illegally).

You say that this citizen should be force to make a difficult decision to leave his career and life here, or be separated from half of his familiy.

Whether to call your position anti-immigrant or anti-illegal-immigrant seems irrelevant.

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Did these people not know they were breaking the law?

Did they not know they could be deported? Separated from family?

They knowingly took a risk by entering the country illegally.

Why would they have to be separated? They can take their family with them, just as they brough half their family here when they came.

Am I missing something in that argument, e_brown?

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Our observations on this issue differ, because many of us get emotionally involved with people we know, many are friends, or family members.

That many are hard workers is not the issue.

The real issue is that our government has the responsibility to establish laws to handle illegal immigration. Their failure has resulted in the current situation where we have 12 million illegals living in our country.

We already had laws governing illegal immigration, but our government failed to enforce the laws.

Our congresss is now trying to revise immigration laws with the House and Senate versions too far apart for a compromise.

The American Public doesn't have much faith in the current congress, and their performance rating reflects that very fact.

It seems congress will continue to fail in their responsibilities. As long as the voting public continues to vote in the incumbents, there's not much chance for change.

The number of illegal immigrants will continue to increase.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Well it may not have escaped you, and obviously did not escape fbaezer, and did seem to escape Walter that I was using the 'house' as an analogy only.

You won't belive me, but I noticed that as well.

Interesting article in today's Chicago Tribune, frontpage and page 4:

Quote:

Border with a welcome mat

She is among more than 100,000 Mexicans who cross "the line" into California every day to work, shop, study, golf, walk on the beach, see a movie or attend a San Diego Padres game. Some 10 million Mexicans have border passes allowing them to travel up to 25 miles into the U.S. whenever they want.

They are part of the unique borderland between the U.S. and Mexico, a world of constant legal crossings that defies the emotional debate and fears of illegal immigration that led to President Bush's decision to deploy National Guard troops to the border.

The welcome mat is out for these bicultural fronterizo Mexicans, who are comfortable on either side. Every four days in Tijuana they cross in numbers equal to how many illegal immigrants sneak Tijuana across the entire U.S. border every year to stay.

The frenetic back-and-forth contradicts the image of the U.S. as an increasingly unwelcoming place or of Mexico as a country that can't hold on to its people. But border dwellers worry that the U.S. is moving away from such openness and that there could be a chilling effect on them.
[...]
The 200 miles on each side of the border have a dynamic of their own. It's like a third nation," said Rossana Fuentes-Berain, an expert in U.S.-Mexico relations. "It couldn't have developed like that with the spirit of what we're seeing, the idea that the U.S. is fencing itself off."

Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, who met with Mexican President Vicente Fox on Friday, warned that troops and barriers could hinder his city's $25 billion-a-year trade with Mexico, including spending by the 1.5 million Mexican tourists who visit each year.

"There's a circulation that's not well understood in Washington, nor in Mexico City," said Guillermo Alonso Meneses, an anthropologist at the Colegio de la Frontera Norte in Tijuana.
[...]
The border divides not only two countries but also thousands of families. They are fluent not only in Spanish and English but also dollars and pesos and a kind of border-ese about traffic backups and on which side to find the freshest fruit or cheapest gasoline.
[...] [...] [...]
Unlike illegal immigrants determined to enter the U.S. to work, many fronterizos could live on the U.S. side but choose to live in Tijuana instead. Cheaper housing is one reason. Another is avoiding the more rigid rules of U.S. society.

"The border is like a part of my life," said Marisol Bustamante, 37, a border-pass holder who carpools two of her children and four others to a Roman Catholic school in downtown San Diego. "I see it as one big neighborhood."

(Nearly) Identical report online

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Quote:

Some 10 million Mexicans have border passes allowing them to travel up to 25 miles into the U.S. whenever they want.

So, they are crossing over legally. They have gone through the proper channels and completed the necessary paperwork for the US to know who they are.

That's not the problem, nor are the legal immigrants who have permission to be here.

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What should be done about illegal immigration?

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