What should be done about illegal immigration?

ebrown_p wrote:

Foxfyre,

This is an issue of morality.

Seems more like an issue of legality to me. It's immoral to break the law.

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ebrown writes

Quote:

As far as your claim that a immigrant friendly policy has "bad results". You offered the 1986 amesty as an example.

The 1986 gave people a chance to become Americans. Another person I use to go to church with is a social worker. She is one of the people I respect the most, compassionate and wise and always doing extra to help people in a difficult job.

She came from Haiti and was granted her citizenship in the 1986 amnesty and worked hard to get an education so she could live a productive life.

The result of the 1986 amnesty is that people were able to build lives here as citizens.

Weren't you one that said this wrecked the economy then? Or was that somebody else.

I probably worded it badly, but I intended to just be repeating what others were saying about the 1986 amnestry.

Sure for those who have become good citizens, it was a good thing. I know a couple of those folks too and had one working for me for a time. He is truly a uniquely marvelous individual and now has his own business. We stay in touch. (He had been declared legal when I hired him.)

What is said to be a downside is that it did nothing at all to stem the tide of illegals coming into the country. It is said that every time we do one of these things, it is like putting a flashing neon sign on the border that there are no consequences for coming to the United States illegally and you have a really good chance to be allowed to stay here legally if you do. If you tough it out, sooner or later the authorities cave in and accept everybody who is here and we start all over again.

So the question is: how many of the world's poor can we take without breaking our own social services network and destroying our own economy? What should the policy be? The current Senate Judiciary Committee bill that just passed didn't really address that and is using some very arbitrary numbers. It looks to me to be another bandaid instead of a fix for the problem. Maybe there is no fix.

http://www.cfif.org/htdocs/freedomline/cartoon-corner/Immigration-big.jpg

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McGentrix wrote:

ebrown_p wrote:
Foxfyre,

This is an issue of morality.

Seems more like an issue of legality to me. It's immoral to break the law.

As Mr. Micawber observed, the law is an ass.

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Jesus broke the law because of it was more compassionate to feed the people and heal the sick than to strictly obey the Sabbath.

Matthew 12:1-15

But as for the legal aspect, you are right McG. I suppose we should have mass deportations straight away. Wouldn't that do our image good? But to adhere to the law, we got to do it, huh?

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The entire discussion could be much forwarded by the simple insertion of an option of "Other (please explain)."

There are seven poll options. The first four (and therefore, the most prominently displayed) envision punishment or prosecution. The fifth says little, and differs little from the seventh. The sixth is sufficiently vague as make anyone selecting that option appear to have no focused resonse, just a feel good reaction with no reference to a concrete solution.

There is no specific mention of effective measures against or the prosecution of those who employ illegal immigrants (the fourth option is sufficiently vague that it could just as well be used against, for example, church groups who "abet" Spanish-speakers who have come here to escape persecution at home). There is no reference to the strong suspicion which many people have that the Bush and Fox administrations prefer to maintain the status quo.

I was the first person to respond to this thread, and i immediately criticized the poll options. To me, they scream out that Fox is obsessed with the "criminality" of the situation, and is only concerned with criminality. To me, the terms of poll clearly demonstrate that no other considerations matter to Fox, and that Fox does not entertain the idea that any other solutions have any merit.

The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 has proven to be ineffective. Nevertheless, it did seek to ameliorate the situation, and to institute measures to deal with the "problem" in the future. That it failed to do so is a criticism of the act as written, not of the concept.

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Setanta wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
Foxfyre,

This is an issue of morality.

Seems more like an issue of legality to me. It's immoral to break the law.

As Mr. Micawber observed, the law is an ass.

Mr. Bumble made that observation.

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Makes no difference to me, as the point is valid.

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Setanta wrote:

Makes no difference to me, as the point is valid.

It makes no difference to you that you were wrong?

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The law in this nation, as enshrined in our Constitution, once envisioned one category of "Persons" as fit to be held in bondage by others. If further held that those who were morally opposed to the proposition were nevertheless legally bound to surrender any absconded slaves to those claiming the authority of government.

The law is an ass.

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Ticomaya wrote:

Setanta wrote:
Makes no difference to me, as the point is valid.

It makes no difference to you that you were wrong?

Typical Tico tripe . . . it makes no difference to me that i was wrong about whom i might have been quoting (especially as it refers to a fictional character), given that point is valid.

I have no doubt, however, that in your odd little world, this is a significant as the difference between meeting person as opposed to simply meeting electrons.

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So Tico, should i go find that quote of you stating that you were not disturbed that your position was not logically consistent?

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McGentrix wrote:

ebrown_p wrote:
Foxfyre,

This is an issue of morality.

Seems more like an issue of legality to me. It's immoral to break the law.

McGentrix,

If I remember correctly you are of Chinese descent.

It is surprising that someone of Chinese descent could take this position given that the original illegal immigrants were Chinese (on account that the original immigration laws were designed to keep the Chinese out).

However through the early 1900s millions of people were willing to break immigration laws. They are the ancestors of 10s of millions of Americans today. The Asian community in the US would not be nearly as large or healthy as it is today if it weren't for illegal Chinese immigrants.

Of course it wasn't just the Chinese who broke immigration laws to get here. There were millions of Irish, Italian and Greek immigrants who, for one reason or another (like being afraid of anti-Catholic sentiment) skirted the immigration process.

In fact it is possible that one of us is an American because one of our ancestors was courageous enough to build a life in the US in spite of immigration laws.

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Setanta wrote:

So Tico, should i go find that quote of you stating that you were not disturbed that your position was not logically consistent?

Knock yourself out.

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The fact that prior policies, laws, opinions, points of view, etc. would not be socially or politically acceptable now does not mean that we should have no laws at all now. Wouldn't you agree? Or do some of you think there should be no restrictions or laws whatsoever regarding illegal immigration?

If you think that is extreme, then what laws or policies would be acceptable to you?

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I certainly won't walk into such a dull-witted and puerile trap. The fact that prior laws have been discovered to be unacceptable, from political, religious and simply humane points of view is good evidence that ranting about the legality of the situation is no kind of argument at all.

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Okay I'll put Setanta in the camp that thinks there should be no laws at all.

Anybody else? What laws regarding illegals coming into the country would be acceptable to you? Surely there has to be a better plan than stop them if we can, but if they get past the border guards, then they're in.

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What a load of sh!t. Nothing i have written for moment suggests that i believe there should be no laws at all. That is tyical idiotic drivel of the kind we have all come to expect from Frox.

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Setanta wrote:

Ticomaya wrote:
Setanta wrote:
Makes no difference to me, as the point is valid.

It makes no difference to you that you were wrong?

Typical Tico tripe . . . it makes no difference to me that i was wrong about whom i might have been quoting (especially as it refers to a fictional character), given that point is valid.

I have no doubt, however, that in your odd little world, this is a significant as the difference between meeting person as opposed to simply meeting electrons.

Fascinating what you find important. In your odd little world, you find it important to try and correct somebody who asserts they "encountered" you in a thread, when you think they merely had a "meeting of the electrons you generate", but don't find it important to correctly identify the fictional character who uttered a quote you provided. What about the casual readers of A2K? Where is your concern for them in this instance?

Should I go find that quote of you nattering on about identifying emphasis added to quotes in our posts, out of your concern for others who "might not know better"?

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Foxy,

My overriding concern is that the people who have been working, and contributing and building lives here be given a path to citizenship. Harsh vindictive punishments against them is what I am calling immoral.

This the the critical moral issue of this debate.

As far as stemming the tide of immigration? There is the question about how much we should stem the tide, but there are "solutions" I would respect.

Of course the best idea would be helping foster economic development in Mexico. The $300 billion in Iraq would go a long way toward building schools, roads and providing development for our neighbor. (Not that we should be spending $300 billion anywhere but that is a debate for another thread). Even the money for this still wall would be better spent to raise the quality of life in Mexico. I just offer this as a solution.

That being said, I think the McCain-Kennedy compromise of providing an immigrant worker program for business in exchange for the acceptance of greater enforcement is a good idea.

Treat people here with respect, and we can work on the details for a reasonable to solution for what you see as a problem.

We are a nation built by immigrants, both legal and illegal. I think your fears that immigrants will now destroy our nation are exagerrated.

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ebrown_p wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
Foxfyre,

This is an issue of morality.

Seems more like an issue of legality to me. It's immoral to break the law.

McGentrix,

If I remember correctly you are of Chinese descent.

Sorry if I have given that impression. Though I am Buddhist, I have European ancestry that came to America in 1785 (paternally).

Quote:

It is surprising that someone of Chinese descent could take this position given that the original illegal immigrants were Chinese (on account that the original immigration laws were designed to keep the Chinese out).

However through the early 1900s millions of people were willing to break immigration laws. They are the ancestors of 10s of millions of Americans today. The Asian community in the US would not be nearly as large or healthy as it is today if it weren't for illegal Chinese immigrants.

Of course it wasn't just the Chinese who broke immigration laws to get here. There were millions of Irish, Italian and Greek immigrants who, for one reason or another (like being afraid of anti-Catholic sentiment) skirted the immigration process.

In fact it is possible that one of us is an American because one of our ancestors was courageous enough to build a life in the US in spite of immigration laws.

Times have changed and until the law is changed, it should be enforced. I am sure that you can find many people in America that believe may laws are immoral, but that doesn't change the law or give anyone the right to break it.

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What should be done about illegal immigration?

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