What should be done about illegal immigration?

@ebrown p,

a good day for chicken-fried rabbit.

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Happy Easter ebrown and everybody.

Jesus also drove the money changers out of the temple and put a great deal of emphasis on motive as well as deed. And there is not a single incidence in which he told the law breaker to keep on breaking the law, but he was far more likely to tell them he would not condemn them, but to go and sin no more. He also put a lot of stock in common sense.

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@Foxfyre,

Gospel of Matthew wrote:

At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."

He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread"which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? tell you that one[a] greater than the temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?"

He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.

In churches today you find a lot of people who are more like the Pharisees than like Jesus.

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@Foxfyre,

I could live without the Christian fable. He was just another man.

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@dyslexia,

Quote:

oy spendi, I never expected you to cite a darwinist.

I didn't cite Veblen. In fact I criticised him for naivety. But he's very funny you must admit. As was Darwin.

What makes me laugh is people who do cite Darwin talking about "illegal immigration".

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@spendius,

Veblen was good on the business aspects of "education".

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@ebrown p,

Trying to use Jesus as a justification to keep breaking the law because you don't want to keep it simply won't wash. As I said before, he was very big on common sense. Yes he taught that keeping silly manmade rules was not keeping the law of God. But again, he did not condone those who commit offenses against themselves or others (sin) nor did he ever instruct anybody who was forgiven to continue sinning. He also said this:

"15If another member of the church* sins against you,* go and point out the fault when the two of you are alone. If the member listens to you, you have regained that one.* 16But if you are not listened to, take one or two others along with you, so that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17If the member refuses to listen to them, tell it to the community; and if the offender refuses to listen even to the community, let such a one be to you as a Gentile and a tax-collector." (Matthew 18:15-17)

I think the same Jesus who said "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" would not condone people violating the law in a way that puts themselves or others at risk. If there were no consequences for violating our immigration laws, then such laws would be silly and should be taken off the books. But there are consequences in the form of over extended social services, depressed wages, higher unemployment, and escalated crime and violence (because a lot of bad people are coming in with the majority who intend nobody any harm.)

Let's enforce the law. And let's also develop a sensisble guest worker program so that we can legally bring in people who we need to work and let's fix our immigration laws to something less burdensome and cumbersome.

But when there is a reason and purpose for sensible immigration policy, let's don't keep encouraging more illegality by forgiving recurring illegal activity.

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@Advocate,

Actually, he was a fabled man created by writers almost two thousand years ago; not much removed like superman of today.

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@cicerone imposter,

I think he was a real person, but he was not of immaculate birth and surely not resurrected.

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@Foxfyre,

I don't think there can be any question about where Jesus would stand on this issue. Dude seemed to be pretty in to forgiving people and stuff. I think the real crux of the argument is this:

Those who wish to forgive those who trespass against us: view the illegal immigrant's act of crossing the border illegally as a single wrongful act.

Those who refuse to forgive those who trespass against us: refuse to view the illegal border crossing as a single incident and for whatever reason consider the very presence of their fellow human beings from the south an ongoing affront.

It isn't, of course. Many of those who are guilty of that single trespass, decades ago, have acclimated into our society, speak our language, pay our taxes, love baseball and apple pie just like any other American. It is obscene, in my mind, to think the offense of trespassing is so heinous that there should be no statute of limitations, let alone a mandatory penalty of exile for such a petty offense.

Anyone who truly believes that our brothers from the south are no less human; would have forgiveness in their hearts for a minor offense committed years ago out of desperation. Surely crossing the border to find a job to earn your lot in life is no less forgivable than stealing a loaf of bread to feed your hungry children.

Quote:

If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions. (Matthew 6:14-15)

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For the record, I am not advocating religion. I am objecting to hypocrisy.

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@Advocate,

If he was a 'real' person, why aren't there other records of his existence? With all those miracles described in the bible, only the bible has the record.

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@OCCOM BILL,

Again Jesus was all for forgiving, but not for continuing to break the law. His consistent view was to go and sin no more.

The man who commits a single murder of a thorough rotten, contemptible, person who, as they used to say in the wild west, 'needed killing' may have benefitted himself and others in the process, but would you say that his crime should have no consequences? Even though he otherwise has led an exemplary life and continues to lead an exemplary life? If you essentially shrug off the offense because he is likable and it was essentially a public service, would that not set a dangerous precedent to encourage more people to emulate it? And this person didn't even continue to commit murders.

The really lovable guy who is the pillar of the community and benefactor to all regularly drives drunk. He hasn't ever hurt anybody so shall we continue to forgive him? What kind of example would that set for others who decide to get sloshed and get behind the wheel?

Should the guy who is a model citizen but just occasionally doesn't pay his taxes be forgiven when he is finally caught? If he is, do you think that encourages others to pay their taxes?

How do you square forgiving people who violate our immigration laws and not imposing the consequences for that already on the books as not encouraging others to emulate them?

Anecdotal evidence is useful in evoking emotional reaction and pushing policy based on emotion and kneejerk reaction rather than on any larger big picture view that acknowledges affect on the general welfare. My proposal to solve the immigration problem does make allowances for those really good people who have been here forever but who are illegal. They would have to make themselves legal, but it would be a relatively minor inconvenience to accomplish that and then they could resume their lives. Their cost would probably be less than the fine you think they should pay. And they would be in even a better position because they would be eligible for a path to citizenship that they do not now have. They would not be harmed in any way by stronger policies, similar to what Britain and Canada have, that make it quite unattractive to be in the country illegally.

I believe my solution to be far more effective to accomplish respect and acceptance of people than yours. And I believe my position is far more humane than the disrespect you show people by thinking they are too fragile to expect them to follow the law.

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@OCCOM BILL,

I forgive the trespassing illegal, but feel he or she must promptly leave our country.

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@ebrown p,

ebrown p wrote:

For the record, I am not advocating religion. I am objecting to hypocrisy.

As am I. If you're not advocating religion, then don't be a hypocrite and try to pretend you weren't using it to make your point. I was absolutely advocating religion and the teachings of Jesus to make my point, but did so only because you brought it up.

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This shows a real failure in the modern Evangelical movement where predominantly White Churches are pitted against Hispanic Churches. (That there is any such thing as White Churches or Hispanic Churches is a problem in itself.)

For the record, my first exposure to the immigration issues was when I was a devout Christian. The husband of a friend of mine was undocumented, and our church community was divided on whether to support them or not. Christians are supposed to love each other as brothers... years later being part of the immigrant rights movement I have never seen anyone want their brother deported. This was the one of the things that started my journey away from religion.

Quote:

Polls show that about two-thirds of white evangelicals consider new immigrants a burden on society, compared with about half of all Americans who hold that view. On the other hand, Cizik said, most evangelicals realize that Latino immigrants are the fastest-growing part of their church.

"Evangelicals are a lot more sensitive to the plight of immigrants than outside observers might think," he said. "When you put together the biblical mandate to care for the alien and the receptivity of the Latino community to the evangel, to the gospel, you have a sensitivity factor that almost outweighs the traditional evangelical concern for law and order."

Some predominantly white evangelical groups, such as the Christian Coalition and Phyllis Schlafly's Eagle Forum, have strongly opposed the Kennedy-McCain bill, labeling it an "amnesty" package. They support a House-passed measure that would concentrate on sealing U.S. borders and enforcing existing immigration laws.

...

Many larger groups, such as James C. Dobson's Colorado-based Focus on the Family, have not taken a stand on the issue. Rodriguez, of the Hispanic Christian conference, said his group wants to know why.

"We need to know from white evangelical leaders why did they not support comprehensive immigration reform, why they came down in favor exclusively of enforcement, without any mention of the compassionate side, without any mention of the Christian moral imperatives," he said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/04/AR2006040401606.html

I guess the question is whether Jesus belongs in a White church or not.

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@Foxfyre,

Your hypocrisy is off the charts. "Forgive them father; they know not what they do" is what the fella reportedly had to say about those who were planning on crucifying him. Clearly, Jesus's forgiveness was NOT limited to past actions. If He can forgive a crucifixion; one would think his followers could at least forgive a simple trespass that occurred many years ago.

Your position is just too contradictory for even you, Foxy. You can’t possibly believe Jesus would forgive murderers and thieves, but not trespassers. Surely you’ve heard “the Lord’s Prayer” once or twice, right?

Quote:

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen.

Now I don't know if there was more to that teaching; but I'd be willing to bet Jesus didn't add a disclaimer that said "if those who trespass against us happen to be born on the other side of a line in the sand; then there can be no forgiveness; they should be damned for all eternity unless they go back where they came.

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@OCCOM BILL,

But Jesus would have had no qualms in pointing out to you how convoluted and legalistic you are attempting to make his teachings which were neither legalistic nor non specific to the subject at hand. That's what the Pharisees did.

He also didn't deal in non sequiturs nor did he build straw men in his teachings as you just did. Nor did he ignore anything others said as religiously as you are ignoring what isn't convenient to your thesis.

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@Foxfyre,

Which part of "we forgive those who trespass against us" are you not getting? Clearly, Jesus forgave murderers and trespassers alike.

If you believe what you claim to believe; ignore these lessons at your own peril, for:

Quote:

If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions. (Matthew 6:14-15)

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@OCCOM BILL,

What part of "I forgive you. . . . go and sin no more" are you not getting? Forgive them for past offenses yes. Forgive the unrepentent? No. Jesus referred to such as that as a 'brood of vipers'. Forgive them for offenses they intended to keep committing no. Read up on his advice to the rich young ruler.

So yes. We can certainly forgive folks for their past offenses re illegal immigration and give them an opportunity to get right with the law--such opportunity not including just allowing them to continue to break the law. Why are you so opposed to doing that?

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What should be done about illegal immigration?

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