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What should be done about illegal immigration?

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 10:59 pm
Unemployment in the U.S. is lower than that in virtually all western nations - in spite of all the displacement attendant to immigration, legal and illegal. How to explain that??
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2007 11:02 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:


The shitty ones that you and I don't want to do - picking veggies and driving nails on roofs in the scorching sun.

Cycloptichorn


I used to do those kinds of jobs, I don't know about you? And maybe the employers need to pay higher wages? That is one of the points of this discussion here, after all, to be willing to treat your employees what they are worth, not as second class citizens. Why not treat these jobs with the respect that is deserved, and pay what is needed to attract the people necessary to do the work without hiring illegals at substandard pay and benefits and avoiding obeying the law?
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 12:51 am
georgeob1 wrote:
Unemployment in the U.S. is lower than that in virtually all western nations - in spite of all the displacement attendant to immigration, legal and illegal. How to explain that??


US is around the levels of Austria, Denmark, Netherlands, Cyprus, Luxembourg,Ireland or UK. Plus, when you look at the breakdown of unemployment within U.S., you'll see it differs in various sectors from 2% all the way to 11%. I posted a link in the previous post.

Countries 2006
Austria 4.8
Belgium 8.3
Bulgaria 8.9
Croatia 13.6
Cyprus 4.9
Czech Republic 7.2
Denmark 3.8
Estonia 5.6
Finland 7.7
France 9
Denmark 8.4
EL 9.8
Hungary 7.5
Ireland 4.4
Italy 7.7
Latvia 6.9
Lichtenstein 5.9
Luxembourg 4.8
Malta 7.4
Netherlands 3.9
Poland 14
Portugal 7.4
Romania 7.2
Slovakia 13.3
Slovenia 6
Spain 8.6
Sweden 7.1
TR 10.3 TR
UK 4.8 UK

EU-15 7.3
EU-25 7.9

source: Eurostat
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 03:04 am
Unemployment rates by state (US)

These are the latest figures from Eustat (there are 27 EU-member states dagmar :wink: )

http://i2.tinypic.com/83424uf.jpg
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 08:30 am
It's good to see you guys support georgeob1's assertion.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 08:47 am
Don't forget McG, most of those arguing the other side voted for Gore in 2000 or wish they could have.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 09:04 am
Well, take a look at the OECD Employment Outlook - http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/36/30/35024561.pdf - and let's compare numbers for Canada and the United States.


For the year 2004 (and for persons aged 15-64 years), Canada reports an unemployment figure of 7.2%, whereas the United States has an unemployment quota of only 5.6%.

But if you measure unemployment not as the ratio of people who are counted as unemployed, but rather as the ratio of employment/population, you'll see that Canada has 72.6 percent employment versus the United States at 71.2 percent.


Counterintuitive, isn't it?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 09:33 am
georgeob1 wrote:
Unemployment in the U.S. is lower than that in virtually all western nations .....


McGentrix wrote:
It's good to see you guys support georgeob1's assertion.


It's a pleasure, McG.

So I learnt today on A2K that some of the formerly western nations are now .... somewhat else.


Besides that ...

Quote:
In theory, the unemployment rate is the number of unemployed workers divided by the total civilian labor force. However, in the United States, the "unemployment rate" is derived from those workers eligible for and currently collecting unemployment benefits from their respective state governments for a maximum period of six months. Other countries, such as in Europe or Japan, use different means to assess the unemployment rate.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 09:37 am
Something has dropped down around them. What metaphor to choose? Um....yeah...that's it... a Roller Blind. A magnesium and carbon fibre roller blind!
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 10:12 am
old europe wrote:
Well, take a look at the OECD Employment Outlook - http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/36/30/35024561.pdf - and let's compare numbers for Canada and the United States.


For the year 2004 (and for persons aged 15-64 years), Canada reports an unemployment figure of 7.2%, whereas the United States has an unemployment quota of only 5.6%.

But if you measure unemployment not as the ratio of people who are counted as unemployed, but rather as the ratio of employment/population, you'll see that Canada has 72.6 percent employment versus the United States at 71.2 percent.


Counterintuitive, isn't it?

There is more than one interpretation of that. Perhaps more spouses and just generally more people need to work in Canada to support themselves? Of the people needing to work, looking for work, the unemployment rate is higher in Canada.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 10:23 am
I'm not even sure why liberals are involved in this immigration problem at all. It isn't as if universities are taking them on as professors or operas taking them on as sopranos or gay groups encouraging them to come in because latinos are so strongly against tradition and family.

It's really that money-concerned Republican base who want and need them... the constantly set-upon small businessman or the larger Walmart or the farm industry.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 12:01 pm
okie wrote :

Quote:
There is more than one interpretation of that. Perhaps more spouses and just generally more people need to work in Canada to support themselves? Of the people needing to work, looking for work, the unemployment rate is higher in Canada.


there is really no interpration needed . thhe U.S. and canada simply use different ways of measuring unemployment .
it's like taking a measurement with a yardstick and thereafter with a meter-based stick . of course the numbers will be different . the best one can do is to convert one measurement into the other .
with the unemployment numbers , different formulas are used , so at best one can make approximations imo .
wrangling over a 1/2 % one way or the other is really futile .
hbg
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 03:22 pm
America, the real America, the America of the founders is under siege from unwelcome and unsavory immigrants.

Quote:
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 04:05 pm
Blatham
"America, the real America, the America of the founders is under siege from unwelcome and unsavory immigrants."

I think the subject of this thread is about ILLEGAL Immigrants.
Your above quote is about immigrants.
I respectfully differ the above quote.

"Strict limits on US professional visas chase away talent. The H-1B visa allows US firms to hire foreign workers for specialty occupations on a temporary basis. But an increasing pool of international students in the US combined with growing demand for skilled-labor visas in many sectors make that visa hard to come by.

Meanwhile, other nations have fine-tuned their immigration policies, devising point systems to attract the most talented workers. As a result, some US offices of highly competitive multinational firms could eventually shrink in size and relevance.

The numbers are not insignificant. More than 560,000 students came from around the world to study at US colleges in 2006, reports the Institute of International Education. The international presence is particularly strong at the nation's elite schools and in science and math programs: International students as a percentage of total enrollment ranges from 25 and 20 percent at Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Stanford, respectively, to 12 percent at Dartmouth and Brown.

With the US setting an annual cap at 65,000 H-1B visas, only a fraction of the students get to stay for work.

Of 15 employers that hired the most MIT graduates in 2006, 12 are firms that also lead in hiring H-1B employees, including Microsoft, IBM, Google, Intel and J.P.Morgan.
http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=9907

There is growing opposition in many countries to immigration, viewed by some as costing government treasuries and diluting national cultures. Philippe Legrain, a British economist and former adviser to the director-general of the World Trade Organization, argues that productivity flourishes in culturally diverse cities and that people are willing to pay to live and work in such fertile environments. Invoking foreign-born luminaries such as author Salman Rushdie and Google co-founder Sergey Brin, Legrain paints a rich picture of globally-minded societies led by the very people once cast as outsiders. All of these arguments are, at their core, riffs on an age-old truism that the mind expands when encountering modes of thinking that differ from its own. Diversity promotes innovation which in turn propels economic growth; thus, the argument that immigration offers no economic benefit is false. As more people migrate, with a range of reasons, governments must address the challenges obstructing the free flow of ideas that ultimately enrich us all.


A list of America's Nobel prize-winners shows many composed of teams of US-born and foreign-born talent. In fact, as Scott Page explains in "The Difference: How the Power of Diversity Creates Better Groups, Firms, Schools," a diverse team of talented individuals is actually better at solving problems than a group of likeminded geniuses.






Just look at Silicon Valley: Google, Yahoo!, eBay and many other big names of the internet revolution were co-founded by immigrants. In fact, nearly half of America's venture-capital-funded start-ups were co-founded by immigrants. And founders like Sergey Brin of Google, Jerry Yang of Yahoo! and Pierre Omidyar of eBay arrived in the US not as highly-skilled immigrants, but as children.


US universities also attract the world's top graduate students in science and engineering, and studies show that an increase in the number of foreign students not only raises patents granted to universities, it also gives a big boost to patents granted to businesses, as foreign graduates who stay on in the US add to the productivity of the wider economy.
http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=9907
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 04:53 pm
CalamityJane wrote:
Advocate wrote:
I guess your name calling is the result of not having any valid arguments.


Well I am glad you admit that you have no valid arguments,so stop the name calling of "dregs".


Where did I admit such a thing? BTW, the vast majority of the illegals are people who can't make it in their own countries, have little or no education or skills, have no wealth, etc. I call these people the dregs of the countries of origin.

Jane, in your ignorance, you must feel that the majority of this country, including many of color, are racists. They share my views.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 05:16 pm
ramafuchs wrote
Quote:
Blatham
"America, the real America, the America of the founders is under siege from unwelcome and unsavory immigrants."

I think the subject of this thread is about ILLEGAL Immigrants.
Your above quote is about immigrants.
I respectfully differ the above quote.


I was satirizing, taking a rather typical xenophobic quote from the mid 1800s where, in that case, catholics were the target of anger and fear-mongering.

But the title of this thread could easily skip the "il" in "illegal" and I don't think we'd see much change to the posts preceding other than those posts insisting that legality is really the issue.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 05:20 pm
Thank you sir.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 05:35 pm
Advocate wrote:
CalamityJane wrote:
Advocate wrote:
I guess your name calling is the result of not having any valid arguments.


Well I am glad you admit that you have no valid arguments,so stop the name calling of "dregs".


Where did I admit such a thing? BTW, the vast majority of the illegals are people who can't make it in their own countries, have little or no education or skills, have no wealth, etc. I call these people the dregs of the countries of origin.

Jane, in your ignorance, you must feel that the majority of this country, including many of color, are racists. They share my views.


Advocate,

If I were to say that the vast majority of the "people of color" are people who can't make it on their own, have little or no education or skills, have no wealth, etc... if because of this I said that "people of color" were the "dregs" of America.

Would this be a racist thing to say?
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 05:39 pm
You must be misreading my post. BTW, just make your statement, and not ask me stupid questions.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2007 06:01 pm
Advocate wrote:
Where did I admit such a thing? BTW, the vast majority of the illegals are people who can't make it in their own countries, have little or no education or skills, have no wealth, etc. I call these people the dregs of the countries of origin.


I guess that would apply to most all of our past immigrants as well; maybe your own?
0 Replies
 
 

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