50
   

What should be done about illegal immigration?

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 11:22 pm
Foxfyre wrote:

Certainly more than 20 million Americans visit Europe every year and probably at least that many visit other continents. I know more than 20 million Americans visit Mexico, Central, and South America every year. So yeah, I think the only amnesty should be to provide 30 to 90 days for folks to get their affairs in order and get themselves home for legal admission.



Data for 2004:

http://i14.tinypic.com/4v6priv.jpg
Source

You must have used a totally different source, Foxfyre, than : U.S. Dept. of Commerce, ITA, Office of Travel & Tourism Industries, "In-Flight Survey" since those don't gave so huge changes for 2005/6.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 11:38 pm
I think OBill will enjoy this article more than others. It was sent to me by a friend in Australia.


Subject: The power of fear

This is what Amnesty International says in its latest annual Report about the real threats to humanity:

In 1941, US President Franklin Roosevelt laid out his vision of a new world order founded on "four freedoms": freedom of speech and of religion; freedom from fear and from want. He provided inspirational leadership that overcame doubt and unified people. Today far too many leaders are trampling freedom and trumpeting an ever-widening range of fears: fear of being swamped by migrants; fear of "the other" and of losing one's identity; fear of being blown up by terrorists; fear of "rogue states" with weapons of mass destruction.

Fear thrives on myopic and cowardly leadership. There are indeed many real causes of fear but the approach being taken by many world leaders is short-sighted, promulgating policies and strategies that erode the rule of law and human rights, increase inequalities, feed racism and xenophobia, divide and damage communities, and sow the seeds for violence and more conflict.

The politics of fear has been made more complex by the emergence of armed groups and big business that commit or condone human rights abuses. Both - in different ways - challenge the power of governments in an increasingly borderless world. Weak governments and ineffective international institutions are unable to hold them accountable, leaving people vulnerable and afraid.

History shows that it is not through fear but through hope and optimism that progress is achieved. So, why do some leaders promote fear? Because it allows them to consolidate their own power, create false certainties and escape accountability.

The Howard government portrayed desperate asylum-seekers in leaky boats as a threat to Australia's national security and raised a false alarm of a refugee invasion. This contributed to its election victory in 2001. After the attacks of 11 September 2001, US President George W Bush invoked the fear of terrorism to enhance his executive power, without Congressional oversight or judicial scrutiny. President Omar al-Bashir of Sudan whipped up fear among his supporters and in the Arab world that the deployment of UN peacekeepers in Darfur would be a pretext for an Iraq-style, US-led invasion. Meanwhile, his armed forces and militia allies continued to kill, rape and plunder with impunity. President Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe played on racial fears to push his own political agenda of grabbing land for his supporters.

Only a common commitment based on shared values can lead to a sustainable solution. In an inter-dependent world, global challenges, whether of poverty or security, of migration or marginalization, demand responses based on global values of human rights that bring people together and promote our collective well-being. Human rights provide the basis for a sustainable future. But protecting the security of states rather than the sustainability of people's lives and livelihoods appears to be the order of the day.

http://thereport.amnesty.org/document/13
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 12:10 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
so, why do some leaders promote fear? Because it allows them to consolidate their own power, create false certainties and escape accountability.


well this certainly sounds familiar enough.

goering made similar comments to a reporter during the nuremburg trials in regards to how hitler was able to gain support among the average german population for war.

it may surprise some here, but it does seem to me that some of the far right, semantics of legal nit picking aside, are indeed scapegoating illegals in a similar way for their own agenda.

which is; be afraid. be very afraid. thank god for those nsa wiretaps, eh ?
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 12:29 am
AI is generally very harsh on our policies, and in that article I do wish they'd have played up the fact that Omar al-Bashir shouldn't have been bluffing. Evil or Very Mad I do appreciate the conclusion as the only rational way to begin the Millennium in earnest if we wish our species to see another. Fighting over lines in the sand is idiotic. The civilized majority can, perhaps for the first time in the history of our species, achieve a worldwide peace that would be based on economic viability rather than fear. Water, Food, extermination of tyranny and finally the investment into our mutual future that is sure to follow. In the meantime Europe is leading the way and we are looking like the dark age fools talking about taking giant steps in reverse. All the logic, logistics and facts don't seem to bother the bigots who view the brown man as the boogieman. It seems none of them retained enough from elementary school to understand the dynamic properties of a currency based economy. When you give opportunity; you don't have less for it. It is apparently easier to swallow bullshit, than to discard prejudice.

If I didn't know better, CI, I'd think that you've been drifting ever closer to my perspective as this thread wears on. I know Cyclops is. Could it be?
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 06:52 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
au1929 wrote:
CI wrote
Quote:
NEW LONDON, Conn. - President Bush portrayed the Iraq war as a battle between the U.S. and al-Qaida on Wednesday and shared nuggets of intelligence to contend Osama bin Laden was setting up a terrorist cell in Iraq to strike targets in America.


That is hardly necessary there are plenty of willing candidates presently residing in the US.
You're starting to repeat this now. Do you realize that the demographic who responded that they understand suicide bombing have performed not one, not ever?


You sound like Bush who claims homeland security and the war in Iraq is keeping the terroists from our shores. His rational no incidents of terror.
He and you should have added. Not Yet.
0 Replies
 
HokieBird
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 07:13 am
Mexifornia - Five Years Later

Victor Davis Hanson

The flood of illegal immigrants into California has made things worse than I foresaw.

In the Spring 2002 issue of City Journal, I wrote an essay about growing up in the central San Joaquin Valley and witnessing firsthand, especially over the last 20 years, the ill effects of illegal immigration (City Journal's editors chose the title of the piece: "Do We Want Mexifornia?"). Controversy over my blunt assessment of the disaster of illegal immigration from Mexico led to an expanded memoir, Mexifornia, published the following year by Encounter Press.

Mexifornia came out during the ultimately successful campaign to recall California governor Gray Davis in autumn 2003. A popular public gripe was that the embattled governor had appeased both employers and the more radical Hispanic politicians of the California legislature on illegal immigration. And indeed Davis had signed legislation allowing driver's licenses for illegal aliens that both houses of state government had passed. So it was no wonder that the book sometimes found its way into both the low and high forms of the political debate. On the Internet, a close facsimile of a California driver's license circulated, with a picture of a Mexican bandit (the gifted actor Alfonso Bedoya of The Treasure of the Sierra Madre), together with a demeaning height (5'4"), weight ("too much"), and sex ("mucho") given. "Mexifornia" was emblazoned across the top where "California" usually is stamped on the license.

In such a polarized climate, heated debates and several radio interviews followed, often with the query, "Why did you have to write this book?" The Left saw the book's arguments and its title?-Mexifornia was originally a term of approbation used by activists buoyed by California's changing demography?-as unduly harsh to newcomers from Mexico. The Right saw the book as long-overdue attention to a scandal ignored by the mainstream Republican Party.

Fast-forward nearly five years, and the national climate has radically changed, so much so that the arguments of Mexifornia?-close the borders, return to the melting pot, offer earned citizenship to most aliens of long residence in exchange for acceptance of English and American culture?-seem tame today, if not passé. In 2002, when I wrote the original City Journal essay, no one thought that the U.S. Congress would vote to erect a wall. Today there is rumbling that the signed legislation entails only 700 miles of fencing instead of spanning the entire 1,950-mile border.

Deportation was once an unimaginable response to the problem of the 11 million here illegally. Now its practicality, rather than its morality, appears the keener point of contention. And the concerted effort by Chicano activists to drive from popular parlance the descriptive term "illegal alien" in favor of the politically correct, but imprecise and often misleading "undocumented worker" has largely failed. Similar efforts to demonize opponents of open borders as "anti-immigrant" or "nativist" have had only a marginal effect in stifling debate, as has the deliberate effort to blur illegal and legal immigration. The old utopian talk of a new borderless zone of dual cultures, spreading on both sides of a disappearing boundary, has given way to a reexamination of NAFTA and its facilitation of greater cross-border flows of goods, services?-and illegal aliens and drugs.

So why has the controversy over illegal immigration moved so markedly to the right?

We return always to the question of numbers. While it is true that no one knows exactly how many are here illegally from Mexico and Latin America, both sides in the debate often accept as reasonable estimates of 11 to 12 million illegals?-with an additional 500,000 to 1 million arriving per year. Given porous borders, such guesses about the number of illegal aliens in the United States are outdated almost as soon as they are published. It is plausible, then, that there may be an additional 3 to 4 million illegal aliens here who were not here when the City Journal "Mexifornia" piece appeared.

The result of such staggering numbers is that aliens now don't just cluster in the American Southwest but frequently appear at Home Depot parking lots in the Midwest, emergency rooms in New England, and construction sites in the Carolinas, making illegal immigration an American, rather than a mere Californian or Arizonan, concern.

Indeed, we forget how numbers are at the crux of the entire debate over illegal immigration. In the 1970s, perhaps a few million illegals resided in the United States, and their unassimilated presence went largely unnoticed. Most Americans felt that the formidable powers of integration and popular culture would continue to incorporate any distinctive ethnic enclave, as they had so successfully done with the past generations that arrived en masse from Europe, Asia, and Latin America. But when more than 10 million fled Mexico in little over a decade?-the great majority poor, without English, job skills, a high school education, and legality?-entire apartheid communities in the American Southwest began springing up.

During the heyday of multiculturalism and political correctness in the 1980s, the response of us, the hosts, to this novel challenge was not to insist upon the traditional assimilation of the newcomer but rather to accommodate the illegal alien with official Spanish-language documents, bilingual education, and ethnic boosterism in our media, politics, and education. These responses only encouraged more illegals to come, on the guarantee that their material life could be better and yet their culture unchanged in the United States. We now see the results. Los Angeles is today the second-largest Mexican city in the world; one out of every ten Mexican nationals resides in the United States, the vast majority illegally.

Since Mexifornia appeared, the debate also no longer splits along liberal/conservative, Republican/Democrat, or even white/brown fault lines. Instead, class considerations more often divide Americans on the issue. The majority of middle-class and poor whites, Asians, African-Americans, and Hispanics wish to close the borders. They see few advantages to cheap service labor, since they are not so likely to need it to mow their lawns, watch their kids, or clean their houses. Because the less well-off eat out less often, use hotels infrequently, and don't periodically remodel their homes, the advantages to the economy of inexpensive, off-the-books illegal-alien labor again are not so apparent.

But the downside surely is apparent. Truck drivers, carpenters, janitors, and gardeners?- unlike lawyers, doctors, actors, writers, and professors?-correctly feel that their jobs are threatened, or at least their wages lowered, by cheaper rival workers from Oaxaca or Jalisco. And Americans who live in communities where thousands of illegal aliens have arrived en masse more likely lack the money to move when Spanish-speaking students flood the schools and gangs proliferate. Poorer Americans of all ethnic backgrounds take for granted that poverty provides no exemption from mastering English, so they wonder why the same is not true for incoming Mexican nationals. Less than a mile from my home is a former farmhouse whose new owner moved in several stationary Winnebagos, propane tanks, and outdoor cooking facilities?-and apparently four or five entire families rent such facilities right outside his back door. Dozens live where a single family used to?-a common sight in rural California that reifies illegal immigration in a way that books and essays do not.

The problem with all this is that our now-spurned laws were originally intended to ensure an (admittedly thin) veneer of civilization over innate chaos?-roads full of drivers who have passed a minimum test to ensure that they are not a threat to others; single-family residence zoning to ensure that there are adequate sewer, garbage, and water services for all; periodic county inspections to ensure that untethered dogs are licensed and free of disease and that housing is wired and plumbed properly to prevent mayhem; and a consensus on school taxes to ensure that there are enough teachers and classrooms for such sudden spikes in student populations.

All these now-neglected or forgotten rules proved costly to the taxpayer. In my own experience, the slow progress made in rural California since the 1950s of my youth?-in which the county inspected our farm's rural dwellings, eliminated the once-ubiquitous rural outhouse, shut down substandard housing, and fined violators in hopes of providing a uniform humane standard of residence for all rural residents?-has been abandoned in just a few years of laissez-faire policy toward illegal aliens. My own neighborhood is reverting to conditions common about 1950, but with the insult of far higher tax rates added to the injury of nonexistent enforcement of once-comprehensive statutes. The government's attitude at all levels is to punish the dutiful citizen's misdemeanors while ignoring the alien's felony, on the logic that the former will at least comply while the latter either cannot or will not.

Fairness about who is allowed into the United States is another issue that reflects class divides?-especially when almost 70 percent of all immigrants, legal and illegal, arrive from Mexico alone. Asians, for example, are puzzled as to why their relatives wait years for official approval to enter the United States, while Mexican nationals come across the border illegally, counting on serial amnesties to obtain citizenship.

These class divisions cut both ways, and they help explain the anomaly of the Wall Street Journal op-ed page mandarins echoing the arguments of the elite Chicano studies professors. Both tend to ridicule the far less affluent Minutemen and English-only activists, in part because they do not experience firsthand the problems associated with illegal immigration but instead find millions of aliens grist for their own contrasting agendas. Indeed, every time an alien crosses the border legally, fluent in English and with a high school diploma, the La Raza industry and the corporate farm or construction company alike most likely lose a constituent.

The ripples of September 11?-whether seen in the arrests of dozens of potential saboteurs here in America or the terrorist bombings abroad in Madrid and London?-remind Americans that their present enemies can do us harm only if they can first somehow enter the United States. Again, it makes little sense to screen tourists, inspect cargo containers, and check the passenger lists of incoming flights, when our border with an untrustworthy Mexico remains porous. While it may be true that the opponents of illegal immigration have used the post-September 11 fear of terrorism to further their own agenda of closing the border with Mexico, they are absolutely correct that presently the best way for jihadist cells to cross into the United States is overland from the south.

Other foreign developments have also steered the debate ever more rightward. In the last decade, the United States has clearly seen the wages of sectarianism and ethnic chauvinism abroad. The unraveling of Yugoslavia into Croatian, Serbian, and Albanian sects followed the Hutu-Tutsi bloodbath in Rwanda. And now almost daily we hear of Pashtun-Tajik-Uzbek hatred among the multiplicity of warring clans in Afghanistan and the daily mayhem among Kurds, Shiites, and Sunnis in Iraq. Why?-when we are spending blood and treasure abroad to encourage the melting pot and national unity?-would anyone wish to contribute to tribalism or foster the roots of such ethnic separatism here in the United States?

Moreover, all during the 1990s, blue-state America offered up the European Union as the proper postmodern antidote to the United States. But just as we have recoiled from the EU's statist and undemocratic tendencies?-which have resulted in popular dissatisfaction, sluggish economic growth, high unemployment, falling demography, and unsustainable entitlement commitments?-so, too, have its unassimilated Muslim minorities served as another canary in the mine. The riots in France, the support for jihadism among Pakistanis in London, and the demands of Islamists in Scandinavia, Germany, and the Netherlands do not encourage Americans to let in more poor Mexican illegal immigrants with loud agendas, or to embrace the multicultural salad bowl over their own distinctive melting pot.

Then there were the April-May 2006 demonstrations here in the United States, when nearly half a million protesters took to the streets of our largest cities, from Chicago to Los Angeles. Previously, naive Americans had considered that their own discussions over border security and immigration were in their own hands. And while Chicano-rights organizations and employer lobbyists were often vehement in their efforts to keep the border open, illegal aliens themselves used to be mostly quiet about our internal legal debates.

In contrast, this spring Americans witnessed millions of illegal aliens who not only were unapologetic about their illegal status but were demanding that their hosts accommodate their own political grievances, from providing driver's licenses to full amnesty. The largest demonstrations?-held on May Day, with thousands of protesters waving Mexican flags and bearing placards depicting the communist insurrectionist Che Guevara?-only confirmed to most Americans that illegal immigration was out of control and beginning to become politicized along the lines of Latin American radicalism. I chronicled in Mexifornia the anomaly of angry protesters waving the flag of the country they vehemently did not wish to return to, but now the evening news beamed these images to millions. In short, the radical socialism of Latin America, seething in the angry millions who flocked to support Venezuela's Hugo Chávez, Bolivia's Evo Morales, and Mexico's Andrés López Obrador, had now seemingly been imported into our own largest cities.

Turmoil in areas of Mexico that send many illegal aliens to the United States is especially worrisome. Recently, for example, almost the entire state of Oaxaca was in near-open revolt over efforts to force the resignation of provincial governor Ulises Ruiz. There was widespread lawlessness, vigilantism, and at times the complete breakdown of order. All this feeds the growing perception that illegal aliens increasingly are arriving not merely as economic refugees but as political dissidents who don't hesitate to take to the streets here to demand social justice, as they did back home.

More important still, Oaxaca's troubles cast doubt on the conventional wisdom that illegal immigration is a safety valve that allows Mexico critical time to get its house in order. Perhaps the opposite is true: some of the areas, like Oaxaca, that send the most illegal aliens to the United States, still experience the greatest social tensions?-in part because of the familial disruption and social chaos that results when adult males flee and depopulated communities consequently become captive to foreign remittances.

Two further issues have persuaded Americans to close the borders: the attitude of the Mexican government and the problems with first-generation native-born children of illegal aliens.

Worker remittances sent back to Mexico now earn it precious American dollars equal to the revenue from 500,000 barrels of daily exported oil. In short, Mexico cannot afford to lose its second-largest source of hard currency and will do almost anything to ensure its continuance. When Mexico City publishes comic books advising its own citizens how best to cross the Rio Grande, Americans take offense. Not only does Mexico brazenly wish to undermine American law to subsidize its own failures, but it also assumes that those who flee northward are among its least educated, departing without much ability to read beyond the comic-book level.

We are also learning not only that Mexico wants its expatriates' cash?-and its nationals lobbying for Mexican interests?-once they are safely away from their motherland; we are also discovering that Mexico doesn't have much concern about the welfare of its citizens abroad in America. The conservative estimate of $15 billion sent home comes always at the expense of low-paid Mexicans toiling here, who must live in impoverished circumstances if they are to send substantial portions of their wages home to Mexico. (And it comes as well at the expense of American taxpayers, providing health-care and food subsidies in efforts to offer a safety net to cash-strapped illegal aliens.) So it is not just that Mexico exports its own citizens, but it does so on the expectation that they are serfs of a sort, who, like the helots of old, surrender much of the earnings of their toil to their distant masters.

But even more grotesquely, in the last five years, the Mexican real-estate market has boomed on the Baja California peninsula. Once Mexico grasped that its own unspoiled coast was highly desirable for wealthy expatriate Americans as a continuation of the prized but crowded Santa Barbara-San Diego seaside corridor, it began to reform its real-estate market, making the necessary changes in property and title law, and it welcomed with open arms cash-laden subdividers looking to come south. This is sound economics, but examine the ethical message: Mexico City will send the United States millions of its own illiterate and poor whom it will neither feed nor provide with even modest housing, but at the same time it welcomes thousands of Americans with cash to build expensive seaside second homes.

Of course, the ultimate solution to the illegal immigration debacle is for Mexican society to bring itself up to the levels of affluence found in the United States by embracing market reforms of the sort we have seen in South Korea, Taiwan, and China. But rarely do Mexican supporters of such globalization, or their sympathetic counterparts in the United States, see the proliferation of a Wal-Mart or Starbucks down south in such terms. Rather, to them American consumerism and investment in Mexico suggest only an owed reciprocity of sentiment: Why should Americans get mad about Mexican illegals coming north when our own crass culture, with its blaring neon signs in English, spreads southward? In such morally equivalent arguments, it is never mentioned that Americanization occurs legally and brings capital, while Mexicanization comes about by illegal means and is driven by poverty.

At the same time, focus has turned more to the U.S.-born children of Mexican illegal immigrants, in whom illegitimacy, school dropout rates, and criminal activity have risen to such levels that no longer can we simply dismiss Mexican immigration as resembling the more problematic but eventually successful Italian model of a century ago. Then, large numbers of southern European Catholics, most without capital and education, arrived en masse from Italy and Sicily, lived in ethnic enclaves, and for decades lagged behind the majority population in educational achievement, income, and avoidance of crime?-before achieving financial parity as well as full assimilation and intermarriage. Since 1990, the number of poor Mexican-Americans has climbed 52 percent, a figure that skewed U.S. poverty rates. Billions of dollars spent on our own poor will not improve our poverty statistics when 1 million of the world's poorest cross our border each year. The number of impoverished black children has dropped 17 percent in the last 16 years, but the number of Hispanic poor has gone up 43 percent. We don't like to talk of illegitimacy, but here again the ripples of illegal immigration reach the U.S.-born generation. Half of births to Hispanic-Americans were illegitimate, 42 percent higher than the general rate of the American population. Illegitimacy is higher in general in Mexico than in the United States, but the force multiplier of illegal status, lack of English, and an absence of higher education means that the children of Mexican immigrants have illegitimacy rates even higher than those found in either Mexico or the United States.

Education levels reveal the same dismal pattern?-nearly half of all Hispanics are not graduating from high school in four years. And the more Hispanic a school district becomes, the greater level of failure for Hispanic students. In the Los Angeles district, 73 percent Hispanic, 60 percent of the students are not graduating. But the real tragedy is that, of those Hispanics who do graduate, only about one in five will have completed a high school curriculum that qualifies for college enrollment. That partly helps to explain why at many campuses of the California State University system, almost half of the incoming class must first take remedial education. Less than 10 percent of those who identify themselves as Hispanic have graduated from college with a bachelor's degree. I found that teaching Latin to first-generation Mexican-Americans and illegal aliens was valuable not so much as an introduction to the ancient world but as their first experience with remedial English grammar.

Meanwhile, almost one in three Mexican-American males between the ages of 18 and 24 recently reported being arrested, one in five has been jailed, and 15,000 illegal aliens are currently in the California penal system.

Statistics like these have changed the debate radically. While politicians and academics assured the public that illegal aliens came here only to work and would quickly assume an American identity, the public's own ad hoc and empirical observations of vast problems with crime, illiteracy, and illegitimacy have now been confirmed by hard data. Ever since the influx of illegals into our quiet valley became a flood, I have had five drivers leave the road, plow into my vineyard, and abandon their cars, without evidence of either registration or insurance. On each occasion, I have seen them simply walk or run away from the scene of thousands of dollars in damage. Similarly, an intoxicated driver who ran a stop sign hit my car broadside and then fled the scene. Our farmhouse in the Central Valley has been broken into three times. We used to have an open yard; now it is walled, with steel gates on the driveway. Such anecdotes have become common currency in the American Southwest. Ridiculed by elites as evidence of prejudice, these stories, statistical studies now show, reflect hard fact.

The growing national discomfort over illegal immigration more than four years after "Mexifornia" first appeared in City Journal is not only apparent in the rightward shift of the debate but also in the absence of any new arguments for open borders?-while the old arguments, Americans are finally concluding, really do erode the law, reward the cynical here and abroad, and needlessly divide Americans along class, political, and ethnic lines.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 08:21 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:

Certainly more than 20 million Americans visit Europe every year and probably at least that many visit other continents. I know more than 20 million Americans visit Mexico, Central, and South America every year. So yeah, I think the only amnesty should be to provide 30 to 90 days for folks to get their affairs in order and get themselves home for legal admission.



Data for 2004:

http://i14.tinypic.com/4v6priv.jpg
Source

You must have used a totally different source, Foxfyre, than : U.S. Dept. of Commerce, ITA, Office of Travel & Tourism Industries, "In-Flight Survey" since those don't gave so huge changes for 2005/6.


I wonder if 'travelers' is the same thing as 'trips'? No clue what they're measuring in the graph, Walter.

Here are some figures from 1999 which would no doubt be considerably higher at the present time:
http://tinet.ita.doc.gov/view/f-1999-11-001/index.html

Most tourist statistics are based on airline ticket sales and does not take into account motor, train, bus trips and/or cruise ship travel. For instance the chart shows 1499 folks visiting Jamaica. There were 2900 people on the Carnival Conquest when we cruised there last year and there were four other ships in port while we were there and we met several others headed there. And that was just one day.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 08:32 am
I am thinking that the numbers are in millions perhaps?

That would mean that 1,499,000 people visited Jamaica perhaps. I am just guessing though as the chart doesn't suggest that.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 08:33 am
Have not as yet seen the actual poll results however, his is an exerpt from an areticle relative to the proposed Amnesty bill now in congress. The public contrary to what some would like to make us believe is in favor of inforcement only.

Quote:
The divisive effect of the bill is illustrated by a Rasmussen poll released yesterday that found that 26 percent of respondents favor the Senate immigration plan. Opposing the bill were 47 percent of Republicans, 51 percent of Democrats and 46 percent who belong to neither party.
"These survey results are consistent with other recent polling data showing that most Americans favor an enforcement only bill," said Scott Rasmussen in an analysis accompanying the poll of 800 likely voters. "Support drops when a 'path to citizenship' is added to the mix," as in the current Senate measure.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 08:37 am
McGentrix wrote:
I am thinking that the numbers are in millions perhaps?

That would mean that 1,499,000 people visited Jamaica perhaps. I am just guessing though as the chart doesn't suggest that.


Heck, I don't know. But most of the same ships were also making stops at Grand Cayman and Cozumel Mexico et al while dozens of others were making various other landings all along the Mexican Atlantic and Pacific coasts--this fall we'll be going to the Mexican Rivera. The point is I'm guessing many thousand folks are visiting Mexico via cruise ships pretty much every day. So are these being measured in the statistics? It just isn't that tough (or expensive) to get there. That doesn't count those going in by plane, auto, bus, taxi, and on foot, etc. Maybe the 20 million is a bit high--I don't know--but it still isn't that tough to go.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 08:49 am
Reporting on Muslim polling
TODAY'S EDITORIAL
May 24, 2007


When polled, about a quarter of young American Muslims consider suicide bombing to be acceptable in some circumstances. This finding is contained in the Pew Research Center's wide-ranging survey of American Muslim opinion, which, with the usual polling caveats, is a mixed bag of positives and negatives overshadowed by this one hugely troubling item. 1.4 million Muslims live in America today. This means that we now count as neighbors hundreds of thousands of people who say that they sometimes approve of a means of warfare which normally involves deliberate attacks on innocent civilians, in the name of religion. That's news.
Naturally, in an act of egregious perception management, most major newspapers buried it in their coverage of the survey.
"Survey: U.S. Muslims Assimilated, Opposed to Extremism," says The Washington Post. "American Muslims reject extremes," says USA Today. The Chicago Tribune: "U.S. Muslims more content, assimilated than those abroad." (At least the Trib's subhead reads: "But 1-in-4 youths sympathize with suicide bombers.") USA Today features this summary prominently: "Muslim Americans are very much like the rest of the country." Those are the words of Luis Lugo, director of the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.
These headlines and quotes are not wrong per se, just incomplete, misleading and indicative of the "kid gloves" treatment this issue receives. Sure, the majority of American Muslims are peaceable and well-assimilated. Many are not. No newspaper should try to "manage" away these facts.
For instance, the "good news" of "U.S. Muslims more content, assimilated than those abroad" is born out by some of the data, but it is probably not the case regarding the suicide-bombing question. In a survey released last month, the University of Maryland's Program on International Policy Attitudes asked respondents in Morocco, Egypt, Pakistan and Indonesia whether terrorist attacks on civilians can be justified. The results: 27 percent of Moroccans, 21 percent of Egyptians, 13 percent of Pakistanis and 11 percent of Indonesians replied in the affirmative. If both polls are accurate, this means that American Muslims are twice as likely as Pakistanis to give the wrong answer. That's a big "if." But certainly the picture is less clear than the media portray it.
It's as if the American media expects that the 75 percent of good news can be emphasized with sufficient vigor to make it the full 100 percent. They have made a judgment that too many Americans are disposed to the negative on the subject, and so they shape the coverage accordingly. They expect to be able to downplay the finding that hundreds of thousands of adherents of Islam tell pollsters that they find suicide bombing to be acceptable in some cases. They expect, somehow, to fail to highlight a very highlightable and troubling point of data about people in the United States with ideological and religious sympathies for suicide terrorism.
This is unsustainable in the long run. That's because at minimum, terrorism's sympathizers comprise the unwitting background noise in which the real malefactors remain hidden. It is not fear-mongering, and it is not bigoted, to point this out. It is called journalism.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 08:53 am
http://tinet.ita.doc.gov/view/m-2006-O-001/index.html

U.S. Citizen Air Traffic to Overseas Regions, Canada & Mexico 2006

Grand Total = 39,758,010
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 08:56 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
I think OBill will enjoy this article more than others. It was sent to me by a friend in Australia.


Subject: The power of fear

This is what Amnesty International says in its latest annual Report about the real threats to humanity:

In 1941, US President Franklin Roosevelt laid out his vision of a new world order founded on "four freedoms": freedom of speech and of religion; freedom from fear and from want. He provided inspirational leadership that overcame doubt and unified people. Today far too many leaders are trampling freedom and trumpeting an ever-widening range of fears: fear of being swamped by migrants; fear of "the other" and of losing one's identity; fear of being blown up by terrorists; fear of "rogue states" with weapons of mass destruction...
....


I wonder what FDR was referring to when he said "freedom from fear," could it have been the tens of thousands of Japanese Americans that he rounded up and placed in concentration camps? Just wondering.

Or did he think fear of people like Hitler was unnecessary? I don't have a clue.

Also, just where is the "freedom from fear" and the "freedom from want" in the constitution?

P.S. Why would anyone take seriously what Amnesty International says? Besides, FDR's statement is totally ignorant. Fear and want are productive and healthy emotions when rightfully employed. It is about survival and the desire to obtain your own needs to survive.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 10:13 am
McGentrix wrote:
http://tinet.ita.doc.gov/view/m-2006-O-001/index.html

U.S. Citizen Air Traffic to Overseas Regions, Canada & Mexico 2006

Grand Total = 39,758,010


Thanks, McG.

Europe 12,995,893 (which is like in pre-2001 times now again), Mexico 5,747,999 (which is 5% down according to touristic sources).
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 11:31 am
[quote="okie

Also, just where is the "freedom from fear" and the "freedom from want" in the constitution?[/quote]

so are you saying that if something is not in the constitution, that it's no good?

careful. that's a door that swings both ways okie :wink:
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 02:53 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
http://tinet.ita.doc.gov/view/m-2006-O-001/index.html

U.S. Citizen Air Traffic to Overseas Regions, Canada & Mexico 2006

Grand Total = 39,758,010


Thanks, McG.

Europe 12,995,893 (which is like in pre-2001 times now again), Mexico 5,747,999 (which is 5% down according to touristic sources).


So if 5,747,999 US citizens are flying to Mexico, and, by the most conservative calculations, 5 to 10 million are travelling to Mexico via cruise ships, and allowing for the very busy and regular foot and vehicle traffic across the border, my 20+ million guesstimate of those traveling to Mexico every year wouldn't be that far off the mark.

Of course all illegals aren't from Mexico and only the honest folk would go back to comply with immigration requirements, so there would most likely be far fewer who would make the trip.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 03:04 pm
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
okie wrote:


Also, just where is the "freedom from fear" and the "freedom from want" in the constitution?


so are you saying that if something is not in the constitution, that it's no good?

careful. that's a door that swings both ways okie :wink:

Fine, but seriously, I hope we never think we can be free of fear or want. That would be absolutely tragic. Example, alot more people would have died in Greensburg, KS if they didn't fear for their lives when they found out the tornado was headed their way.

I continue to find it amazing libs swallow absolutely idiotic statements as if they are so profound, when they are nothing more than nonsense. Such statements are based in idealism, not reality, and we know libs are idealistic to their own failing. Another example, they still want communism to work so bad, they can taste it, and would just like to try it one more time and maybe get it right. They are waiting for the messiah, could it be Hillary, or is it Obama?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 03:07 pm
Liberals swallow Idealitstic statements?

This from the party of 'stay the course?' 'If we come home, they will follow us' and 'No end but victory!' ????

Too funny

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 03:13 pm
How about Edward's assertion the "War on Terror" is concocted just for fear. There is no threat? Is that idealistic or realistic?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 03:15 pm
okie wrote:
How about Edward's assertion the "War on Terror" is concocted just for fear. There is no threat? Is that idealistic or realistic?


He didn't say that there's no threat, just that the 'war on terror' is a stupid, idealistic phrase which has no relation to the actual efforts to stop terrorism around the world.

You can put that up there with the War on Drugs (failed Republican policy) and the War on Poverty (failed Dem policy). All are asinine, idealistic slogans.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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