50
   

What should be done about illegal immigration?

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 11:22 pm
Foxfyre wrote:

Certainly more than 20 million Americans visit Europe every year and probably at least that many visit other continents. I know more than 20 million Americans visit Mexico, Central, and South America every year. So yeah, I think the only amnesty should be to provide 30 to 90 days for folks to get their affairs in order and get themselves home for legal admission.



Data for 2004:

http://i14.tinypic.com/4v6priv.jpg
Source

You must have used a totally different source, Foxfyre, than : U.S. Dept. of Commerce, ITA, Office of Travel & Tourism Industries, "In-Flight Survey" since those don't gave so huge changes for 2005/6.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 11:38 pm
I think OBill will enjoy this article more than others. It was sent to me by a friend in Australia.


Subject: The power of fear

This is what Amnesty International says in its latest annual Report about the real threats to humanity:

In 1941, US President Franklin Roosevelt laid out his vision of a new world order founded on "four freedoms": freedom of speech and of religion; freedom from fear and from want. He provided inspirational leadership that overcame doubt and unified people. Today far too many leaders are trampling freedom and trumpeting an ever-widening range of fears: fear of being swamped by migrants; fear of "the other" and of losing one's identity; fear of being blown up by terrorists; fear of "rogue states" with weapons of mass destruction.

Fear thrives on myopic and cowardly leadership. There are indeed many real causes of fear but the approach being taken by many world leaders is short-sighted, promulgating policies and strategies that erode the rule of law and human rights, increase inequalities, feed racism and xenophobia, divide and damage communities, and sow the seeds for violence and more conflict.

The politics of fear has been made more complex by the emergence of armed groups and big business that commit or condone human rights abuses. Both - in different ways - challenge the power of governments in an increasingly borderless world. Weak governments and ineffective international institutions are unable to hold them accountable, leaving people vulnerable and afraid.

History shows that it is not through fear but through hope and optimism that progress is achieved. So, why do some leaders promote fear? Because it allows them to consolidate their own power, create false certainties and escape accountability.

The Howard government portrayed desperate asylum-seekers in leaky boats as a threat to Australia's national security and raised a false alarm of a refugee invasion. This contributed to its election victory in 2001. After the attacks of 11 September 2001, US President George W Bush invoked the fear of terrorism to enhance his executive power, without Congressional oversight or judicial scrutiny. President Omar al-Bashir of Sudan whipped up fear among his supporters and in the Arab world that the deployment of UN peacekeepers in Darfur would be a pretext for an Iraq-style, US-led invasion. Meanwhile, his armed forces and militia allies continued to kill, rape and plunder with impunity. President Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe played on racial fears to push his own political agenda of grabbing land for his supporters.

Only a common commitment based on shared values can lead to a sustainable solution. In an inter-dependent world, global challenges, whether of poverty or security, of migration or marginalization, demand responses based on global values of human rights that bring people together and promote our collective well-being. Human rights provide the basis for a sustainable future. But protecting the security of states rather than the sustainability of people's lives and livelihoods appears to be the order of the day.

http://thereport.amnesty.org/document/13
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 12:10 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
so, why do some leaders promote fear? Because it allows them to consolidate their own power, create false certainties and escape accountability.


well this certainly sounds familiar enough.

goering made similar comments to a reporter during the nuremburg trials in regards to how hitler was able to gain support among the average german population for war.

it may surprise some here, but it does seem to me that some of the far right, semantics of legal nit picking aside, are indeed scapegoating illegals in a similar way for their own agenda.

which is; be afraid. be very afraid. thank god for those nsa wiretaps, eh ?
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 12:29 am
AI is generally very harsh on our policies, and in that article I do wish they'd have played up the fact that Omar al-Bashir shouldn't have been bluffing. Evil or Very Mad I do appreciate the conclusion as the only rational way to begin the Millennium in earnest if we wish our species to see another. Fighting over lines in the sand is idiotic. The civilized majority can, perhaps for the first time in the history of our species, achieve a worldwide peace that would be based on economic viability rather than fear. Water, Food, extermination of tyranny and finally the investment into our mutual future that is sure to follow. In the meantime Europe is leading the way and we are looking like the dark age fools talking about taking giant steps in reverse. All the logic, logistics and facts don't seem to bother the bigots who view the brown man as the boogieman. It seems none of them retained enough from elementary school to understand the dynamic properties of a currency based economy. When you give opportunity; you don't have less for it. It is apparently easier to swallow bullshit, than to discard prejudice.

If I didn't know better, CI, I'd think that you've been drifting ever closer to my perspective as this thread wears on. I know Cyclops is. Could it be?
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 06:52 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
au1929 wrote:
CI wrote
Quote:
NEW LONDON, Conn. - President Bush portrayed the Iraq war as a battle between the U.S. and al-Qaida on Wednesday and shared nuggets of intelligence to contend Osama bin Laden was setting up a terrorist cell in Iraq to strike targets in America.


That is hardly necessary there are plenty of willing candidates presently residing in the US.
You're starting to repeat this now. Do you realize that the demographic who responded that they understand suicide bombing have performed not one, not ever?


You sound like Bush who claims homeland security and the war in Iraq is keeping the terroists from our shores. His rational no incidents of terror.
He and you should have added. Not Yet.
0 Replies
 
HokieBird
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 07:13 am
Mexifornia - Five Years Later
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 08:21 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:

Certainly more than 20 million Americans visit Europe every year and probably at least that many visit other continents. I know more than 20 million Americans visit Mexico, Central, and South America every year. So yeah, I think the only amnesty should be to provide 30 to 90 days for folks to get their affairs in order and get themselves home for legal admission.



Data for 2004:

http://i14.tinypic.com/4v6priv.jpg
Source

You must have used a totally different source, Foxfyre, than : U.S. Dept. of Commerce, ITA, Office of Travel & Tourism Industries, "In-Flight Survey" since those don't gave so huge changes for 2005/6.


I wonder if 'travelers' is the same thing as 'trips'? No clue what they're measuring in the graph, Walter.

Here are some figures from 1999 which would no doubt be considerably higher at the present time:
http://tinet.ita.doc.gov/view/f-1999-11-001/index.html

Most tourist statistics are based on airline ticket sales and does not take into account motor, train, bus trips and/or cruise ship travel. For instance the chart shows 1499 folks visiting Jamaica. There were 2900 people on the Carnival Conquest when we cruised there last year and there were four other ships in port while we were there and we met several others headed there. And that was just one day.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 08:32 am
I am thinking that the numbers are in millions perhaps?

That would mean that 1,499,000 people visited Jamaica perhaps. I am just guessing though as the chart doesn't suggest that.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 08:33 am
Have not as yet seen the actual poll results however, his is an exerpt from an areticle relative to the proposed Amnesty bill now in congress. The public contrary to what some would like to make us believe is in favor of inforcement only.

Quote:
The divisive effect of the bill is illustrated by a Rasmussen poll released yesterday that found that 26 percent of respondents favor the Senate immigration plan. Opposing the bill were 47 percent of Republicans, 51 percent of Democrats and 46 percent who belong to neither party.
"These survey results are consistent with other recent polling data showing that most Americans favor an enforcement only bill," said Scott Rasmussen in an analysis accompanying the poll of 800 likely voters. "Support drops when a 'path to citizenship' is added to the mix," as in the current Senate measure.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 08:37 am
McGentrix wrote:
I am thinking that the numbers are in millions perhaps?

That would mean that 1,499,000 people visited Jamaica perhaps. I am just guessing though as the chart doesn't suggest that.


Heck, I don't know. But most of the same ships were also making stops at Grand Cayman and Cozumel Mexico et al while dozens of others were making various other landings all along the Mexican Atlantic and Pacific coasts--this fall we'll be going to the Mexican Rivera. The point is I'm guessing many thousand folks are visiting Mexico via cruise ships pretty much every day. So are these being measured in the statistics? It just isn't that tough (or expensive) to get there. That doesn't count those going in by plane, auto, bus, taxi, and on foot, etc. Maybe the 20 million is a bit high--I don't know--but it still isn't that tough to go.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 08:49 am
Reporting on Muslim polling
TODAY'S EDITORIAL
May 24, 2007


When polled, about a quarter of young American Muslims consider suicide bombing to be acceptable in some circumstances. This finding is contained in the Pew Research Center's wide-ranging survey of American Muslim opinion, which, with the usual polling caveats, is a mixed bag of positives and negatives overshadowed by this one hugely troubling item. 1.4 million Muslims live in America today. This means that we now count as neighbors hundreds of thousands of people who say that they sometimes approve of a means of warfare which normally involves deliberate attacks on innocent civilians, in the name of religion. That's news.
Naturally, in an act of egregious perception management, most major newspapers buried it in their coverage of the survey.
"Survey: U.S. Muslims Assimilated, Opposed to Extremism," says The Washington Post. "American Muslims reject extremes," says USA Today. The Chicago Tribune: "U.S. Muslims more content, assimilated than those abroad." (At least the Trib's subhead reads: "But 1-in-4 youths sympathize with suicide bombers.") USA Today features this summary prominently: "Muslim Americans are very much like the rest of the country." Those are the words of Luis Lugo, director of the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.
These headlines and quotes are not wrong per se, just incomplete, misleading and indicative of the "kid gloves" treatment this issue receives. Sure, the majority of American Muslims are peaceable and well-assimilated. Many are not. No newspaper should try to "manage" away these facts.
For instance, the "good news" of "U.S. Muslims more content, assimilated than those abroad" is born out by some of the data, but it is probably not the case regarding the suicide-bombing question. In a survey released last month, the University of Maryland's Program on International Policy Attitudes asked respondents in Morocco, Egypt, Pakistan and Indonesia whether terrorist attacks on civilians can be justified. The results: 27 percent of Moroccans, 21 percent of Egyptians, 13 percent of Pakistanis and 11 percent of Indonesians replied in the affirmative. If both polls are accurate, this means that American Muslims are twice as likely as Pakistanis to give the wrong answer. That's a big "if." But certainly the picture is less clear than the media portray it.
It's as if the American media expects that the 75 percent of good news can be emphasized with sufficient vigor to make it the full 100 percent. They have made a judgment that too many Americans are disposed to the negative on the subject, and so they shape the coverage accordingly. They expect to be able to downplay the finding that hundreds of thousands of adherents of Islam tell pollsters that they find suicide bombing to be acceptable in some cases. They expect, somehow, to fail to highlight a very highlightable and troubling point of data about people in the United States with ideological and religious sympathies for suicide terrorism.
This is unsustainable in the long run. That's because at minimum, terrorism's sympathizers comprise the unwitting background noise in which the real malefactors remain hidden. It is not fear-mongering, and it is not bigoted, to point this out. It is called journalism.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 08:53 am
http://tinet.ita.doc.gov/view/m-2006-O-001/index.html

U.S. Citizen Air Traffic to Overseas Regions, Canada & Mexico 2006

Grand Total = 39,758,010
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 08:56 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
I think OBill will enjoy this article more than others. It was sent to me by a friend in Australia.


Subject: The power of fear

This is what Amnesty International says in its latest annual Report about the real threats to humanity:

In 1941, US President Franklin Roosevelt laid out his vision of a new world order founded on "four freedoms": freedom of speech and of religion; freedom from fear and from want. He provided inspirational leadership that overcame doubt and unified people. Today far too many leaders are trampling freedom and trumpeting an ever-widening range of fears: fear of being swamped by migrants; fear of "the other" and of losing one's identity; fear of being blown up by terrorists; fear of "rogue states" with weapons of mass destruction...
....


I wonder what FDR was referring to when he said "freedom from fear," could it have been the tens of thousands of Japanese Americans that he rounded up and placed in concentration camps? Just wondering.

Or did he think fear of people like Hitler was unnecessary? I don't have a clue.

Also, just where is the "freedom from fear" and the "freedom from want" in the constitution?

P.S. Why would anyone take seriously what Amnesty International says? Besides, FDR's statement is totally ignorant. Fear and want are productive and healthy emotions when rightfully employed. It is about survival and the desire to obtain your own needs to survive.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 10:13 am
McGentrix wrote:
http://tinet.ita.doc.gov/view/m-2006-O-001/index.html

U.S. Citizen Air Traffic to Overseas Regions, Canada & Mexico 2006

Grand Total = 39,758,010


Thanks, McG.

Europe 12,995,893 (which is like in pre-2001 times now again), Mexico 5,747,999 (which is 5% down according to touristic sources).
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 11:31 am
[quote="okie

Also, just where is the "freedom from fear" and the "freedom from want" in the constitution?[/quote]

so are you saying that if something is not in the constitution, that it's no good?

careful. that's a door that swings both ways okie :wink:
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 02:53 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
http://tinet.ita.doc.gov/view/m-2006-O-001/index.html

U.S. Citizen Air Traffic to Overseas Regions, Canada & Mexico 2006

Grand Total = 39,758,010


Thanks, McG.

Europe 12,995,893 (which is like in pre-2001 times now again), Mexico 5,747,999 (which is 5% down according to touristic sources).


So if 5,747,999 US citizens are flying to Mexico, and, by the most conservative calculations, 5 to 10 million are travelling to Mexico via cruise ships, and allowing for the very busy and regular foot and vehicle traffic across the border, my 20+ million guesstimate of those traveling to Mexico every year wouldn't be that far off the mark.

Of course all illegals aren't from Mexico and only the honest folk would go back to comply with immigration requirements, so there would most likely be far fewer who would make the trip.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 03:04 pm
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
okie wrote:


Also, just where is the "freedom from fear" and the "freedom from want" in the constitution?


so are you saying that if something is not in the constitution, that it's no good?

careful. that's a door that swings both ways okie :wink:

Fine, but seriously, I hope we never think we can be free of fear or want. That would be absolutely tragic. Example, alot more people would have died in Greensburg, KS if they didn't fear for their lives when they found out the tornado was headed their way.

I continue to find it amazing libs swallow absolutely idiotic statements as if they are so profound, when they are nothing more than nonsense. Such statements are based in idealism, not reality, and we know libs are idealistic to their own failing. Another example, they still want communism to work so bad, they can taste it, and would just like to try it one more time and maybe get it right. They are waiting for the messiah, could it be Hillary, or is it Obama?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 03:07 pm
Liberals swallow Idealitstic statements?

This from the party of 'stay the course?' 'If we come home, they will follow us' and 'No end but victory!' ????

Too funny

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 03:13 pm
How about Edward's assertion the "War on Terror" is concocted just for fear. There is no threat? Is that idealistic or realistic?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 May, 2007 03:15 pm
okie wrote:
How about Edward's assertion the "War on Terror" is concocted just for fear. There is no threat? Is that idealistic or realistic?


He didn't say that there's no threat, just that the 'war on terror' is a stupid, idealistic phrase which has no relation to the actual efforts to stop terrorism around the world.

You can put that up there with the War on Drugs (failed Republican policy) and the War on Poverty (failed Dem policy). All are asinine, idealistic slogans.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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