What should be done about illegal immigration?

xingu wrote:

It seems Americans have more compassion for the downtrodden than our A2K conservatives who want to ship them out.

Wonder who's out of touch here?

You... obviously... if you think this is an "A2K conservatives" issue.

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...didn't say it was an "A2K conservatives issue"...said they want to ship 'em out. Pay attention.

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snood wrote:

...didn't say it was an "A2K conservatives issue"...said they want to ship 'em out. Pay attention.

That issue isn't split on conservative/liberal lines. Hence; A2K conservatives was a foolish entry on it. Why are you getting snippy? (Do you miss Lash? Razz

)

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God forbid! LOL

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I do see this as largely a liberal/conservative issue. There is a bit of cross-over that is easily explained by two important sub-groups.

1. The main theme; compassion versus law-enforcement, is one of the oldest and most prominant themes in the US liberal vs. conservative struggle.

The anti-war movement pitted people who were sympathetic to kids who didn't want to fight and die against law and order conservatives.

The people opposed to Martin Luther King's movement used argument that his movement would lead to lawlessness, and pointed out that the Montgomery bus boycott (and other similar actions ) were illegal.

The Roe versus Wade case that legalized abortion was based on "privacy". The Courts never found that abortion was a right. The argument that made abortion legal was that enforcing the laws against it is unconstitutional.

I would include the war on drugs (where liberals urge compassion and conservative strict law enforcement) and the right to die movement in this list.

2. The attack on multiculturalism is also a consistant conservative theme. The idea that differences within American society will damage the society is conservatives where liberals have traditionally celebrated and defended different groups.

Issues of this include separation of church and state battles, and the struggle over gay marriage. In both cases the conservatives are trying to put the rights of the majority (who are considered "good Americans") from minorities who are considered threats to some part of society.

There is a little crossover on this issue than normal because to two sub-groups to the traditional liberal/conservative divide.

The people we now call "Lou Dobbs democrats" are terrified of the possibility that the world we live on might be a globe. This is a very interesting (and in my opinion disturbing) ideology that forces people who might normally identify as "liberal" to reject anything that brings in more foreigners.

Then there are people on the right that belive that anything good for business is good for America. The business community, when it looks objectively without other intervening bias, has always realized that immigrant labor (whether legal or not) is very good for the American economy.

At the core of the immigration issue is the a basic struggle:

....Compassion for fellow human beings versus law enforcement and cutural homogeneity.

Take a way the needs of a couple of side groups... this is a basic example of the normal struggle between right and left in the United States.

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Foxfyre wrote:

[...]
As nearly as I can tell, I think if the questions are phrased to allow the people to fully express their opinions, the majority consensus at this time is:
[...]
6) Those immigrating on a temporary basis should undergo thorough background checks and if they have a criminal record in their home country or in the USA, they should not be admitted.
7) Ditto for those immigrating with the intention of becoming U.S. citizens, and those seeking citizenship should want to be Americans and rooted here.
[...]

That is done already, even for those who enter the USA only as holiday visitors (they know my religion, my home address, my email address, my credit card numbers, have my checked my criminal background ...).
Altogether 34 different personal datas which - by cross check - sum up to some dozens more.

Michael Chertoff now wants even more data.

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Lawyer Lied to Government to Help Hundreds of Illegal Aliens

NEWARK, N.J. (AP) -- A lawyer has pleaded guilty to helping hundreds of illegal aliens remain in the United States by falsifying information given to the government.

During a hearing Thursday night, Jonathan Saint Preux admitted that the scheme brought his Irvington law office hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Saint Preux, 44, of South Orange, is the third person to plead guilty in the case. His wife, Michele Saint Preux, 40, who was his office manager; and Bharat Kotak, 56, of Iselin, who referred illegal immigrants to the firm, have also pleaded guilty.

They remain free pending sentencing. Immigration fraud carries up to 10 years in prison and a $250,000 fine.

A fourth defendant, Naranjan Patel, 47, of South Plainfield, pleaded not guilty and is scheduled for trial in June.

Federal prosecutors charged that the lawyer, aided by the others, told authorities that the immigrants were unlawfully in the country before 1982, which allowed them to be considered for legal residency under an amnesty program. The scheme ran from September 2004 to February 2006, authorities said.

Hang them high Evil or Very Mad

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au1929 wrote:

Hang them high

You still get credit for not attempting to hide your bigotry...

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ebrown_p wrote:

The people we now call "Lou Dobbs democrats" are terrified of the possibility that the world we live on might be a globe. This is a very interesting (and in my opinion disturbing) ideology that forces people who might normally identify as "liberal" to reject anything that brings in more foreigners.

You are contradicting yourself. Why bother?

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France was very liberal in allowing in immigrants, and they showed their appreciation with vicious riots. I wager the French would not have let in the immigrants if they had a chance to repeat history.

If we don't shut the door soon, we should expect similar discord.

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Advocate wrote:

France was very liberal in allowing in immigrants, and they showed their appreciation with vicious riots. I wager the French would not have let in the immigrants if they had a chance to repeat history.

If we don't shut the door soon, we should expect similar discord.

This isn't France. Immigrants here find work readily. Your comparison is completely invalid.

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Advocate wrote:

France was very liberal in allowing in immigrants, and they showed their appreciation with vicious riots. I wager the French would not have let in the immigrants if they had a chance to repeat history.

If we don't shut the door soon, we should expect similar discord.

You don't understand history. France was no more liberal with immigration that the US was.

There is ONE big difference between French immigration policy and ours. In America we have the fourteenth amendment... meaning that after the 2nd generation, any immigrant families are full American citizens.

The Irish, Italians, Greeks, Jews, Germans... all immigrated. And each of these groups had both legal immigrants and illegal ones.

However there are no significant numbers of any of these groups that aren't fully invested as full American citizens.

In France, there are people who were born and raised in France who don't have the full rights of French citizenship. There are even people whose parents were born and raised in France who aren't allowed to be fully French.

If France had the 14th amendment that we have... under which anyone who was born in raised in France had equal rights, then they would not have entire communities of disenfranchized minorities who are both products of French culture, but unable to fully participate.

It is YOU who want America to be more like France. I want us to stay American.

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OCCOM BILL wrote:

ebrown_p wrote:
The people we now call "Lou Dobbs democrats" are terrified of the possibility that the world we live on might be a globe. This is a very interesting (and in my opinion disturbing) ideology that forces people who might normally identify as "liberal" to reject anything that brings in more foreigners.
You are contradicting yourself. Why bother?

Please do bother. I don't need to fight about this... but I am curious about what you think was a contradiction. (BTW this comment was not at all aimed at you.)

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OCCOM BILL wrote:

au1929 wrote:
Hang them high
You still get credit for not attempting to hide your bigotry...

When in Your most distorted view did punishment for lawbreakers become bigotry. Hell I keep forgetting you believe your view of the world is the only valid one. I have a few words for you and they are not happy birthday.

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au1929 wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:
au1929 wrote:
Hang them high
You still get credit for not attempting to hide your bigotry...

When in Your most distorted view did punishment for lawbreakers become bigotry. Hell I keep forgetting you believe your view of the world is the only valid one. I have a few words for you and they are not happy birthday.

That's easy Au.

Punishment for lawbreakers was bigotry...

- When run-away slaves were flogged, or killed.
- When homosexuals were jailed (or killed).
- When people were lynched after being accused of crimes.
- When Martin Luther King was jailed.
- When women died of abortions provided by uncertified providers.
- When kids are left without their parents because of immigration raids.

Need I go on?

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Brown
You forgot to include the enforcement of our immigration laws and the punishment of rapists and muggers. You would say anything and break any law to justify keeping your friends and relatives in the US. What a crock.

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Quote:

Those who aid and abet illegal immigration should be subject to prosecution

How can we deny people resources that we are lucky to have? If we were born in their situation, we would have done the same. On the other, hand they're using up taw-payers money. So make it harder for them to get in.

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ebrown_p wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
The people we now call "Lou Dobbs democrats" are terrified of the possibility that the world we live on might be a globe. This is a very interesting (and in my opinion disturbing) ideology that forces people who might normally identify as "liberal" to reject anything that brings in more foreigners.
You are contradicting yourself. Why bother?

Please do bother. I don't need to fight about this... but I am curious about what you think was a contradiction. (BTW this comment was not at all aimed at you.)

Not Conservative Vs. Liberal.
Neither Cyclops nor AU have any conservative credentials, just for instance.

AU, desiring to hang a man for helping his fellowman of another nationality, with his nationality, is about as bald as one can be.

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eBrown:

I am sure the French said that "it can't happen here." We don't have the room that we used to have. If we are flooded with immigrants, increasingly large numbers of them will have a difficult time to integrate fully, and this causes discord.

I am not against immigration, but it should be under control and very limited.

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What should be done about illegal immigration?

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