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What should be done about illegal immigration?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 04:28 pm
au, Excellent find. Thanks for sharing it.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 04:38 pm
Cicerone,

I am surprised you didn't see that article before Au pointed it out do you.

Don't you regularly read WorldNetDaily?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 05:05 pm
Chumly wrote:
blatham,
given you're a former Canuck, it might be interesting to compare Canada's massive open arms immigration policy to the US's illegal immigration concerns. Given their proximity one might argue their polices are at odds.


hi chumly

As you know, the two countries adopted somewhat different models for immigration policy, in Canada it is commonly referred to as "mosaic" whereas the US term is "melting pot". Canadian policy allowed/encouraged ethnic groups to retain their identities and to settle together in enclaves. The US sought assimilation. Some of what we are witnessing here on this thread and in the US generally can be attributed to that assimilation idea or goal. It's really a sort of oil and water problem as people do not easily give up their cultural heritage (see the Brits in India or the Americans in the Green Zone and elsewhere).

Further, the unique history of the US worked to foster a notion of "exceptionalism" and of a quite evangelical sense of mission to rehabilitate the rest of the world such that it might strive to become what it clearly ought to become - that is, American (because of its exceptionalism and closer proximity to the proper or perfectness. Inherent in all of that is the corollary that that which is non-american is not really up to snuff. The further step taken (by many) is that outsiders will pollute or move america back away from the perfect or the good.

That said, the US surely has a greater 'problem' simply as a consequence of its location and climate-range. Though we get a considerable amount of immigration up from Mexico and South/Central America, its nothing compared to the US. That immigration has proved a boon to many business enterprises but it has also caused a lot of turmoil (due mainly to the above).
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 05:26 pm
Given the two countries physical/economic/social proximity, I'm not sure their perceived differing ideologies/backgrounds makes a whole lot of sense, does it?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 05:56 pm
Chumly wrote:
Given the two countries physical/economic/social proximity, I'm not sure their perceived differing ideologies/backgrounds makes a whole lot of sense, does it?


Well, I guess two cultures or two nations or two people etc can believe that they are different when the differences aren't really very significant. Imagine two narcicists.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 05:57 pm
ebrown, My regular paper is the San Jose Mercury News. Otherwise, I get some reports through the net from NY Times, Reuters and BBC.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 06:04 pm
CI
What! You don't read El Diario ?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 06:10 pm
Or Salon.com?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 06:14 pm
I like my vacations. Wink
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 06:16 pm
Browne
Suppose you were a border patrol agent, rediculous I know. And a car loaded with what you suspect to be illegal aliens. When ordered to stop, by you, went barreling past. What action would you take.
> Invite them to your house for dinner?
> Throw them a few bucks for gas?
> Wave goodby and wish them a safe trip?
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 06:30 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
A jury found OJ Simpson innocent of all charges too, remember?
This is simply not true. A jury found that the State failed to prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. If anything; this exemplifies how difficult that burden is to meet. The jury in question had no such trouble.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 06:37 pm
Hmmm, maybe where you live "not guilty" means something different than "not guilty" here? I heard what the jury foreman said. It wasn't "We failed to find the defendent guilty beyond a reasonable doubt".
The foreman said, "Not guilty."
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 06:48 pm
Shocked ... Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 06:49 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
A jury found OJ Simpson innocent of all charges too, remember?
This is simply not true. A jury found that the State failed to prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. If anything; this exemplifies how difficult that burden is to meet. The jury in question had no such trouble.


Additionally, a civil court jury found him liable for those two deaths, which is why he stays out of California . . .
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 07:32 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Hmmm, maybe where you live "not guilty" means something different than "not guilty" here? I heard what the jury foreman said. It wasn't "We failed to find the defendent guilty beyond a reasonable doubt".
The foreman said, "Not guilty."
This is the type of foolishness that makes debate with you unappealing. Do you really have no clue how our justice system works?

[url=http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cas62.htm]Judge Ito[/url] wrote:
A defendant in a criminal action is presumed to be innocent until the contrary is proved, and in case of a reasonable doubt whether his guilt is satisfactorily shown, he is entitled to a verdict of not guilty. This presumption places upon the prosecution the burden of proving him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 07:39 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Hmmm, maybe where you live "not guilty" means something different than "not guilty" here? I heard what the jury foreman said. It wasn't "We failed to find the defendent guilty beyond a reasonable doubt".
The foreman said, "Not guilty."
This is the type of foolishness that makes debate with you unappealing. Do you really have no clue how our justice system works?

[url=http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cas62.htm]Judge Ito[/url] wrote:
A defendant in a criminal action is presumed to be innocent until the contrary is proved, and in case of a reasonable doubt whether his guilt is satisfactorily shown, he is entitled to a verdict of not guilty. This presumption places upon the prosecution the burden of proving him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.


I wasn't quoting Judge Ito. I was quoting the jury foreman. Try to keep up here.

In either case, the verdict is "not guilty" and the defendant is free to go.

I presume you think the jury made the right call in that case and in all cases which would explain you assuming that there could not be any room for any questions re the border guard case.

If you don't think the jury made the right call in the O.J. case, then you might consider that it is not unreasonable for some of us to question that the jury didn't make the right call in the case of the border guards either.

At any rate, I don't intend to debate the point on this thread. It might make an interesting separate thread.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 07:56 pm
"Not guilty" does not mean "innocent"; it means the state has not found him guilty (and therefore cannot treat him as if he were guilty). But it seems that a vigilante attitude prevails such that most people feel he IS guilty and would like him to suffer for it. Frankly, I don't know if he is or isn't guilty. Then again I do not know if you or anyone else here has raped or killed anyone either.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 08:02 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
I wasn't quoting Judge Ito. I was quoting the jury foreman. Try to keep up here.
Laughing That excerpt was taken from Ito's legally required instructions to the Jury. A finding of "not guilty" means "not proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" and nothing more. It does not mean "innocent."

I do think he was guilty but it is a simple matter of FACT that he wasn't proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, according to a jury of his peers. That isn't the case here. Why is that too hard for you to process?
This statement is laughably false:
Foxfyre wrote:
A jury found OJ Simpson innocent of all charges too, remember?
No one remembers this, because it never happened.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 08:04 pm
That would mean that these border guards were found guilty of their crimes beyond a reasonable doubt by a jury of their peers, wouldn't it Bill?
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2007 08:09 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
That would mean that these border guards were found guilty of their crimes beyond a reasonable doubt by a jury of their peers, wouldn't it Bill?
That's the only way a finding of guilty can be entered, without a plea of "guilty" or "no contest". It is a tremendous burden of proof and the O.J. case is a terrific example of this.
0 Replies
 
 

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