Therapy For Relationships Is A Scam

I can only speak for myself. In 1986 I was engaged, had a big diamond and a deposit on a pouffy dress, I also had some misgivings about the whole thing. My fiancee and I decided to go to a counselor and see if he could referee a few of our problems. It took three sessions to realize I had no idea who I was marrying. The counselor asked questions of my fiancee that I could never get straight answers on, or never thought to ask, and my fiancee answered him honestly, or at least was less evasive. I clearly saw bad qualities in him that I suspected, but could not confirm previously. I did not want to spend my life with someone who had those values. Gave back the ring, cancelled the dress and lived happily ever after.

I think for the majority of couples, a counselor can be more helpful in getting them out of bad relationship than shoring it up.

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Chumly wrote:

Hi Green Witch,

With your doubts and concerns do you think you would have gone ahead with the marriage if you had not seen a counselor? Would you have perhaps found some other vehicle to bring things out in the open?

I might have gone ahead with it. Everyone in my family liked him, my girlfriends were all excited about the wedding thing, I was rather young and embarrassed to think I might have made a big mistake by accepting the proposal. I was young enough to believe we could work out the problems later. I also naive enough to think marriage made things easier, not harder (I know the truth now).The counselor got my fiancee to admit that part of the reason he wanted to marry me was because my family had money and I earned a large salary at the time. The counselor got him to admit that in a kind of sneaky way, I was never able to get him to admit that - although I suspected it. The counselor got him to admit he did not plan to stay in NY, although he always told me we would stay if I wanted to. He even admitted he applied to a law firm in MD without telling me. He appeared to be what every family wants for their daughter - a successful lawyer, polite, good looking, two bedroom co-op on the Westside of NYC etc. Only my mother expressed a doubt when he claimed he could change my mind about having children (I didn't and don't want them)

Also what about living together first before all big diamonds and pouffy dresses. That is a pretty good barometer of person's character, did you consider this?

We lived together for about 6 months and it was during that time we (I) decided a counselor might be helpful

Your point that counselors might have better efficacy in ending a relationship is interesting. I covered that a bit when I said "or even stopping the present relationship and finding a better one". However the majority of my text was focussed on a counselor's efficacy as per the couple staying together and being happy.

I think good marriages and relationships don't need counselors, so mostly only the most troubled show up on their doorstep. I think a counselor can really help a person to decide if there is hope or if it's a lost cause. By the time people get to a counselor the marriage has serious problems and the odds of the relationship ending are greater than it surviving. As I mentioned on another thread, I've been happily married 12 years and never once thought we needed to go to a counselor.

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Well I am glad you found the ******* snake in the grass before it had time to bite. Two poinst of interest.

Your points are well taken. Still, your views, of necessity, are subjective and individualistic. That's cool, but it does not go to the heart of matter as per

Chumly wrote:

Where are the scientific third party unbiased studies over 20 year periods to show that couple therapy provides a higher level of total benefits than going for a sexy holiday, or talking to friends, or getting a dog, or working it out without a professional, or going to the gym every day and improving your diet, or learning about Tantric sex, or taking up ballroom dancing, or even stopping the present relationship and finding a better one, etc. etc.?

I also wonder, even today, how much more socially acceptable it is for woman to have inclinations to marry into material stability than a man?

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It's kind of the law of the land. To this day.

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hmmm, i should inform my mother. she's a marriage and pre-marriage counsellor. and i rely on her in all of my relationships. she has not been wrong yet with any of her advise or insight.

have you ever worked with a counsellor, chumly?

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dagmaraka wrote:

hmmm, i should inform my mother. she's a marriage and pre-marriage counsellor. and i rely on her in all of my relationships. she has not been wrong yet with any of her advise or insight.

It's irrelative to my assertions how well your mother knows you, what kind of advice she gives you, or how she earns her money. I am sure there are many children who would make similar claims that their mother knows them well and has given good advice Remember your views are subjective and individualistic. Remember: that is not scientific third party unbiased studies over 20 year periods to show that couple therapy provides a higher level of total benefits than going for a sexy holiday, or talking to friends, or getting a dog, or working it out without a professional, or going to the gym every day and improving your diet, or learning about Tantric sex, or taking up ballroom dancing, or even stopping the present relationship and finding a better one, etc. etc. Of further note: professionals whether intentionally or not, directly or indirectly, impress upon their clients that they have been of consequential benefit, hence a couple's responses to a professional are unscientific and subjective.

dagmaraka wrote:

have you ever worked with a counsellor, chumly?

Yes, remember I have interviewed many so-called relationship "professionals" in person and over the phone.

Dagmaraka: where is your scientific third party unbiased studies over 20 year periods to show that couple therapy provides a higher level of total benefits than going for a sexy holiday, or talking to friends, or getting a dog, or working it out without a professional, or going to the gym every day and improving your diet, or learning about Tantric sex, or taking up ballroom dancing, or even stopping the present relationship and finding a better one, etc. etc.?

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Therapy is more for a neutral third party than anything else IMO. An outside source, someone not directly emotionally involved, can always solve relationship problems more easily than someone in the relationship.

Think about it. You can give endless information out to others but if the exact same thing happens to you, it's hard to follow your own advice.

And that, my friend, is far more than 20 years of "research". Ask almost anyone you know and they will tell you the same thing.

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Hi Bella Dea,

Nice to hear from you. If I remember right you like my humor but said we don't share common viewpoints very often. Well we see if anything has changed. Either way it's always fun to exchange views. Else what would be the point?

Bella Dea wrote:

Therapy is more for a neutral third party than anything else IMO. An outside source, someone not directly emotionally involved, can always solve relationship problems more easily than someone in the relationship.

That may well be true at times and I made reference to outside factors such as friends, dogs, etc. But that misses the main point of my assertions, also I certainly contest your claim of "always solve".

Bella Dea wrote:

Think about it. You can give endless information out to others but if the exact same thing happens to you, it's hard to follow your own advice.

Again I made no such claims to deny this specific view (outside of the "always solve" claim) and nor does it go to the main point of my assertions.

Bella Dea wrote:

And that, my friend, is far more than 20 years of "research".

Your views, of necessity, are subjective and individualistic. Also consider: professionals whether intentionally or not, directly or indirectly, impress upon their clients that they have been of consequential benefit, hence a couple's responses to a professional unscientific and subjective.

Bella Dea wrote:

Ask almost anyone you know and they will tell you the same thing.

Whelp if I was to ask "almost anyone" I know if god exists they would quite likely say they believe it to be the case, but that in no way means that it is true. Popularly held beliefs, or belief by consensus are simply that and nothing more, unless or until proven otherwise. Other common examples: it was widely believed the earth was flat, the sun revolved around the earth and witches were real. More examples: Sigmoid (sic) Freud's bizarre theories on woman, and his wacko theories on anal retentive versus and anal expulsion, I could fill pages (oh that's' bad.)/quote]

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Hi Bella Dea,

Nice to hear from you. If I remember right you like my humor but said we don't share common viewpoints very often. We'll we see if anything has changed. Either way it's always fun to exchange views. Else what would be the point?

Bella Dea wrote:

Therapy is more for a neutral third party than anything else IMO. An outside source, someone not directly emotionally involved, can always solve relationship problems more easily than someone in the relationship.

That may well be true at times and I made reference to outside factors such as friends, dogs, etc. But that misses the main point of my assertions, also I certainly contest your claim of "always solve".

Bella Dea wrote:

Think about it. You can give endless information out to others but if the exact same thing happens to you, it's hard to follow your own advice.

Again I made no such claims to deny this specific view (outside of your "always solve" claim) and nor does it go to the main point of my assertions.

Bella Dea wrote:

And that, my friend, is far more than 20 years of "research".

Your views, of necessity, are subjective and individualistic. Also consider: professionals whether intentionally or not, directly or indirectly, impress upon their clients that they have been of consequential benefit, hence a couple's responses to a professional are unscientific and subjective.

Bella Dea wrote:

Ask almost anyone you know and they will tell you the same thing.

Whelp if I was to ask "almost anyone" I know if god exists they would quite likely say they believe it to be the case, but that in no way means that it is true. Popularly held beliefs, or belief by consensus are simply that and nothing more, unless or until reasonably proven otherwise. Other common examples: it was widely believed the earth was flat, the sun revolved around the earth and witches were real. More examples: Sigmoid (sic) Freud's bizarre theories on woman, and his wacko theories on anal retentive versus and anal expulsive, I could fill pages.....oh that's' bad

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You may very well be right, Chumley, when you say counselors may be more effective in helping someone get out of a relationship, rather than stay in one.

If that makes the situation better on the whole for both parties, than the counselors done enormous good. I wouldn't call it a scam, I'd call it helping people see reality.

I knew I was making a mistake even before I married my first husband, and I sure proved myself right. The whole mess lasted less than 2 years.

At one point, I suggested we do counseling, and he said "no, if the problem's big enough for us to see a counselor, it's not worth saving this marriage." He wasn't saying that to be deep or anything...he knew in his heart that if he said in a therapist chair, he'd have to admit what a phycopath he was (is).
The problem was I believed a marriage should be until death do you part, and he didn't mind living with someone who was miserable, since he didn't really believe anything in the world was real expect him anyway.

It wasn't until I met up with an old flame and ran off with same did the light come on that "hey, I don't have to keep beating this dead horse, I can marry and be with this person who is right for me."

That would have happened a lot sooner with a therapist guiding the process, but then, my now husband would not have been there waiting.

You can talk to you mother, friends, people here on A2K...but they are more likely to pull their punches. Your sister knows the marriage isn't worth it, and may say so, but she's not going to sit there, asking you the right questions, then not saying anything until you do think about it and answer truthfully. She and your friends and family love you, and don't want to "see you hurt"

I'm sure most people go to see a marriage counselor with the hope of working things out...but, if through their exploration they come to understand the marriage must end, I'd say the therapist keeping them on track is a big part, and the breakup allows 2 people to get on with their lives, at least understanding why it happened.

I never saw a marriage counselor, but did see a therapist for a while..I know there was something wrong with me, but would never have been able to figure it out without someone asking me and making me ask myself the right questions.

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Chai Tea wrote:

You may very well be right, Chumley, when you say counselors may be more effective in helping someone get out of a relationship, rather than stay in one.

The credit should in part go to Green Witch who with actually illuminated it, I only alluded to it.

All your points are good, but again admittedly subjective and/or anecdotal. That is not to say they are not without merit for you and/or your arguments do not have substance. An interesting aside to all this is that these types of threads draw the attention of woman far more than men (at least here on able2know.com) and suggest a fairly strong sexual bias for better or worse. I asked Doktor S to chime in and we'll see if the sexual dynamics change.

Chai Tea wrote:

You can talk to you mother, friends, people here on A2K...but they are more likely to pull their punches. Your sister knows the marriage isn't worth it, and may say so, but she's not going to sit there, asking you the right questions, then not saying anything until you do think about it and answer truthfully. She and your friends and family love you, and don't want to "see you hurt"

You may be right. OTOH I have some friends that do not pull punches and are not softies. Again it could be a sexual thing as I am guy and you are a girl.

BTW I made the tittle of the thread intentionally inflammatory because it gets more attention and it's fun. However I did right away go into my evidence argument. The thing is, if had titled it something like "Scientific Third Party Unbiased Studies Over 20 Year Periods Are Needed To Prove Couple Therapy Provides A Higher Level Of Total Benefits Than......"

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Oh sure, you could talk to people you know personally, the ones you know what pull any punches, but they would still be talking from a personal perspective.

A professional won't let his/her personal stuff enter the discussion (hopefully) and also, I think a lot of it come back down to leading the discussion in the proper direction.

When people start having to talk about uncomfortable things, they may try to lead the discussion away from that stuff....a therapist, who's not listening for his/her entertainment or fondness for the person, will bring it back on track.

For me, I wasn't afraid to talk about uncomfortable things, I knew things had to come out....but if I were talking to a friend, they might just let me keep talking, not working through anything.

The counselor stops you and asks why did you, why do you think they....etc.

I used to come home, especially at first, with so many clues and ideas. I actually had something to work on during the week, trying to understand my reactions, where they came from. I could see it forcing me to look deeper.

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A bit of interesting stuff that may lend credence to the topic:

Quote:

April 27, 2005
New Study Shows Marriage Counseling Doesn't Work Well

I already knew that marriage counseling has a poor track record. A 1997 paper by Sullivan and Bradbury entitled "Are premarital prevention programs reaching couples at risk for marital dysfunction?" in the Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology had shown that "[w]hile couples who experienced premarital counseling claim to be more satisfied in their marriages than couples who did not, in the end there is no difference in marital outcomes between those couples who have had extensive premarital counseling and those who have not."

A new study has shown that marriage counseling doesn't work. It found that "[t]wo years after ending counseling, studies find, 25 percent of couples are worse off than they were when they started, and after four years, up to 38 percent are divorced."

Many of the counseling strategies used today, like teaching people to listen and communicate better and to behave in more positive ways, can help couples for up to a year, say social scientists who have analyzed the effectiveness of different treatments. But they are insufficient to get couples through the squalls of conflict that inevitably recur in the long term.

At the same time, experts say, many therapists lack the skills to work with couples who are in serious trouble. Unable to help angry couples get to the root of their conflict and forge a resolution, these therapists do one of two things: They either let the partners take turns talking week after week, with no end to the therapy in sight, or they give up on the couple and, in effect, steer them to divorce.

"Couples therapy can do more harm than good when the therapist doesn't know how to help a couple," said Dr. Susan M. Johnson, professor of psychology at the University of Ottawa and director of the Ottawa Couple and Family Institute.

The article quote Dr. John Gottman, whom I'm already familiar with. He's a relationship expert who I feel is better at his job than that shyster John "Mars/Venus" Gray. The article also cited an unnamed recent study that had shown "that it is not whether a couple fights but how they fight that can destroy a relationship."

Posted on April 27, 2005 at 12:42 PM | Permalink

Comments
Trish,

As a Child and Family Therapist, I can attest to three things regarding marital counseling: 1. If one spouse wants to be there and the other one doesn't - forget about it.
2. If one spouse makes changes and the other one doesn't - forget about it.
3. If both want to be there and both make changes, the chance of success skyrockets.

I didn't see these variables addressed in the report.

Posted by: Screwy Hoolie at Apr 28, 2005 4:46:40 PM

I have some friends whose marriage counseling made them realize that they HAD to get divorced. The question was, should we do it now when we can still be friendly and civil, or do we wait until later (i.e. when the kids are grown) and we all suffer terribly?

They chose the former. The aftermath has not been smooth for reasons I won't go into here, but the split was the fault of both parties equally and I heard the same story from both of them.

Posted by: kohoutekdriver8 at Apr 28, 2005 10:39:07 PM

Hoolie is wise in ways like this. Oy. From one who knows.

Posted by: The Heretik at Apr 28, 2005 11:46:28 PM

I don't doubt that more marital therapy attempts fail than succeed, but there are factors to consider. First, what is failure? As a psychotherapist who does quite a bit of marital work, I find that the goal is not always for the couple to remain a marital unit.

Also, of the instances of marital therapy recorded in the study, how many were actual therapeutic experiences, and how many involved the couple showing up a few times and then dropping out?

I have had some good experiences helping couples stay together by showing them new ways to deal with each other. I have also turned many couples away and told each party to enter individual therapy instead. Is that a statistical failure?

Relatively healthy people do well in couple therapy. Relatively unhealthy people do not.

Posted by: Diane at Apr 29, 2005 1:16:28 PM

I wasted time for 2 years in marital therapy. All it did was give the ex more time to find ways to run up debt in my name or dump on me after the divorce. The therapist never called him on his efforts to control the therapy process, or his refusal to do one damn thing or make even one small symbolic concession or compromise. I think she was basically intimidated by him, as much as any of his former wives or girlfriends. You'd think a therapist would see the abuse dynamic and how it was being reenacted with her, but she was apparently oblivious.

Interesting it that the one time we saw a man, a minister as it was, he called the ex on his order issuing right away. Ex didn't like it. Women therapists cannot let themselves be bullied by these types.

Posted by: silverside at Apr 29, 2005 3:13:46 PM

One intervention that I know has helped a lot of marriages is attending a Retrouvaille weekend along with the follow-up gatherings. This is a peer ministry of people who themselves have managed to create positive marriages after significant problems--affairs, alcoholism, sex addictions, etc.

Posted by: Emily at May 10, 2005 2:05:42 PM

Unfortunately, most marriage counseling are not
interested in marriage counseling. They attempt
to provide treatmeant which is outside of their
scope of practice.
Few marriage counselors conduct research or write
articles on marriage counselors. Even the study
being referenced here was conducted by psychologist.
Professional Jounals rearly contain articles by
marriage counselors. Most marriage counseling is
provided by clinical social workers or psychologists.

Posted by: George Anderson at Jul 11, 2005 11:30:13 PM

"I wasted time for 2 years in marital therapy. All it did was give the ex more time to find ways to run up debt in my name...

Interesting it that the one time we saw a man, a minister as it was, he called the ex on his order issuing right away. Ex didn't like it. Women therapists cannot let themselves be bullied by these types."

This is interesting Silverside. As your ex appeared to combined the worse traits of both men and women in one uber personality package. The natural aggression displayed by most males by ordering you around and the female passive/aggressive behavior in spending down someone else's resources; while contributing NOTHING significant of their own...as I find the WORSE offenders in this area are frequently women who neither work OR add children to the family...

I mean the bottom line is that people have to understand if you are not contributing anything of significance to the relationship (either money or children) you'd got to accept the lesser role in the family...and I find men are never willing to do that...

Thus these househusband/stay-at-home dad situations rarely succeed for any length of time...as men fail to accept the lesser role. They want to STILL be the 'head of household' and telling everyone else what to do, giving orders, etc., even though they are contribiting significantly less to the household...

Posted by: NYMOM at Sep 24, 2005 5:52:37 AM

Retrouvaille is just another sham of the Christian right! I was drug to a retreat which would "save my marriage" told that God hated divorce and was badgered for the last months of my marriage and even our separation by people who knew what was best for me. I talked to two other men at the retreat who felt the way I felt. Just ending the thing made ending the marriage and going through the divorce a hell of a lot more difficult. But then, that is their agenda.

Posted by: tw05439 at Feb 6, 2006 10:15:41 AM

Worked for me and Becky. But perhaps we would have worked things out without it.

Posted by: Chris Clarke at Feb 6, 2006 10:33:17 PM

http://trishwilson.typepad.com/blog/2005/04/new_study_shows.html

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You asked:

"Where are the scientific third party unbiased studies over 20 year periods to show that couple therapy provides a higher level of total benefits than . . . ."

Who says that therapy promises a higher level of "total benefits" (whatever that means) ?

It's just a third party looking at at a troubling situation - remember, the healthy don't go to a Doctor, so the idea that healthy people would go to a marriage counselor is not a good argument.

After all, there's his side, her side, and then there's the truth.

A good counselor simply adjusts the mirror so the truth can be seen by whomever wants to really see.

(Now would you like to discuss the quality of MOST pychologists and psychiatirsts? I find most of them either sheltered, uptight people with very limited life experiences OR just outright nuts)

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Re: Therapy For Relationships Is A Scam

Chumly wrote:

Where are the scientific third party unbiased studies over 20 year periods to show that couple therapy provides a higher level of total benefits than going for a sexy holiday, or talking to friends, or getting a dog, or working it out without a professional, or going to the gym every day and improving your diet, or learning about Tantric sex, or taking up ballroom dancing, or even stopping the present relationship and finding a better one, etc. etc.?

Wouldn't that depend on the reason for the counselling/therapy? Maybe you want to know if the chasms in your relationship can be crossed, in which case, you could have your answer in 3 short visits, resulting in a high level of benefit, costing you less time, trouble and money than "going for a sexy holiday, or talking to friends, or getting a dog, or working it out without a professional, or going to the gym every day and improving your diet, or learning about Tantric sex, or taking up ballroom dancing, etc"

Chumly wrote:

Professionals whether intentionally or not, directly or indirectly, impress upon their clients that they have been of consequential benefit, hence a couple's responses to a professional unscientific and subjective.

Don't agree with that AT ALL. Where's your evidence?

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SULLYFISH66 wrote:

Who says that therapy promises a higher level of "total benefits" (whatever that means) ?

Straw Man Logical Fallacy; I did not use the word "promise" and as such you misrepresent my position.[

Given your rhetorical argument that the presumption of therapy being of benefit in this context is in question, I challenge you to show that there is no presumption for therapy to be of benefit in this context.

Given you seem unsure what the words "total" and "benefits" mean:

to·tal (ttl)
n.
1. An amount obtained by addition; a sum.
2. A whole quantity; an entirety.
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or constituting the whole; entire. See Synonyms at whole.
2. Complete; utter; absolute: total concentration; a total effort; a total fool.
v. to·taled or to·talled, to·tal·ing or to·tal·ling, to·tals
v.tr.
1. To determine the total of; add up.
2. To equal a total of; amount to.
3. To wreck completely; demolish: survived the crash but totaled the car.
v.intr.
To add up; amount: It totals to three dollars

ben·e·fit (bn-ft)
n.
1.
a. Something that promotes or enhances well-being; an advantage: The field trip was of great benefit to the students.
b. Help; aid.
2. A payment made or an entitlement available in accordance with a wage agreement, an insurance policy, or a public assistance program.
3. A public entertainment, performance, or social event held to raise funds for a person or cause.
4. Archaic A kindly deed.
v. ben·e·fit·ed also ben·e·fit·ted, ben·e·fit·ing also ben·e·fit·ting, ben·e·fits also ben·e·fits
v.tr.
To be helpful or useful to.
v.intr.
To derive benefit: You will benefit from her good example.

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Re: Therapy For Relationships Is A Scam

Mame wrote:

Wouldn't that depend on the reason for the counselling/therapy?

Wouldn't what depend? Also what makes you presume the "reason" is known, beforehand or otherwise?

Mame wrote:

Don't agree with that AT ALL. Where's your evidence?

Have look here as per the phrase "the medium is the message" and how it would apply in this case. "it is only too typical that the "content" of any medium blinds us to the character of the medium." http://individual.utoronto.ca/markfederman/article_mediumisthemessage.htm

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I don't see anything in that article that has anything to do with your claim, Chumly. Would you mind pointing it out for me - I'm either dense or blind if it's there.

Thanks.

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Therapy For Relationships Is A Scam

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