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Some Common, Bad Arguments for the Recent U.S. Policy Towar

 
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 03:03 pm
McGentrix wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
But what of all the chemical and biological weapons?

Rolling Eyes


Why the eye roll Joe? He had a pretty nice collection... It included, at least, up to 360 tonnes of bulk chemical weapons agent, 1.5 tonnes of VX nerve agent; up to 3,000 tonnes of precursor chemicals; growth media for biological agent production; 30,000 special munitions; 550 shells filled with mustard gas, 500 R-400 aerial bombs possibly filled with chemical or biological weapons, 15 biological weapons warheads, and 50 Al-Hussein warheads.


Why do you write things like that without citing a source? Or are we just supposed to assume you know what the hell you're talking about?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 03:07 pm
McGentrix wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
But what of all the chemical and biological weapons?

Rolling Eyes


Why the eye roll Joe? He had a pretty nice collection... It included, at least, up to 360 tonnes of bulk chemical weapons agent, 1.5 tonnes of VX nerve agent; up to 3,000 tonnes of precursor chemicals; growth media for biological agent production; 30,000 special munitions; 550 shells filled with mustard gas, 500 R-400 aerial bombs possibly filled with chemical or biological weapons, 15 biological weapons warheads, and 50 Al-Hussein warheads.


link for the google impaired.
0 Replies
 
blacksmithn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 03:08 pm
Is that the arsenal that disappeared into Cloud-Cuckoo Land or is that just the made-up one?

Or the mythical one that the Russian spetsnaz supposedly smuggled into Syria?

Never mind, they're all equally nonexistent...
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 03:14 pm
McGentrix wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
But what of all the chemical and biological weapons?

Rolling Eyes


Why the eye roll Joe? He had a pretty nice collection... It included, at least, up to 360 tonnes of bulk chemical weapons agent, 1.5 tonnes of VX nerve agent; up to 3,000 tonnes of precursor chemicals; growth media for biological agent production; 30,000 special munitions; 550 shells filled with mustard gas, 500 R-400 aerial bombs possibly filled with chemical or biological weapons, 15 biological weapons warheads, and 50 Al-Hussein warheads.

I'll ask you the same question I asked Brandon: where was the threat to the US?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 03:25 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
But what of all the chemical and biological weapons?

Rolling Eyes


Why the eye roll Joe? He had a pretty nice collection... It included, at least, up to 360 tonnes of bulk chemical weapons agent, 1.5 tonnes of VX nerve agent; up to 3,000 tonnes of precursor chemicals; growth media for biological agent production; 30,000 special munitions; 550 shells filled with mustard gas, 500 R-400 aerial bombs possibly filled with chemical or biological weapons, 15 biological weapons warheads, and 50 Al-Hussein warheads.

I'll ask you the same question I asked Brandon: where was the threat to the US?


There are plenty.

Iraq starts a war with a neighbor country turning the oil market on it's head badly damaging the US economy.

Saddam sells WMD's to terrorist organization to raise much needed funds to remain in power, those terrorists use WMD's against America to further their islamo-facist war.

Iraq starts a war with Israel which immediately draws American defense.
0 Replies
 
blacksmithn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 03:52 pm
This is the same Iraq whose army melted away in about 25 seconds, right?
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 04:31 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Iraq starts a war with a neighbor country turning the oil market on it's head badly damaging the US economy.

Was there any evidence that Iraq was planning on doing this in March 2003?

McGentrix wrote:
Saddam sells WMD's to terrorist organization to raise much needed funds to remain in power, those terrorists use WMD's against America to further their islamo-facist war.

Was there any evidence that Iraq was planning on doing this in March 2003?

McGentrix wrote:
Iraq starts a war with Israel which immediately draws American defense.

Was there any evidence that Iraq was planning on doing this in March 2003?

Remember, Bush told the American people in March 2003 that we had to invade now, and it wasn't because Iraq might invade a neighboring country or attack Israel at some hypothetical point in the future. Certainly we can both imagine increasingly fantastic scenarios which could justify an invasion, but we didn't invade because of any of the "what if" scenarios that you set out. Your grounds for invasion, then, are just so many unconvincing post hoc rationalizations.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 05:50 pm
I have my own theories on why we had to invade when we did. Bush had his own reasons he invaded Iraq. He presented them to congress and they agreed. The past is past.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 07:14 pm
McGentrix wrote:
I have my own theories on why we had to invade when we did. Bush had his own reasons he invaded Iraq. He presented them to congress and they agreed. The past is past.

When exactly did you invade Iraq?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 08:18 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
I have my own theories on why we had to invade when we did. Bush had his own reasons he invaded Iraq. He presented them to congress and they agreed. The past is past.

When exactly did you invade Iraq?


Give it a rest.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 08:29 pm
From your link McG


Quote:
But last year, after 12 years, Iraq had still not accounted fully for its WMD programs.




They hadn't accounted for their programs? Where were the WMD you keep claiming?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 08:33 pm
Quote: How, then would you assess Saddam Hussein's personality and goals?

He played a dangerous game and lost. That doesn't give the US any right to preemptively attack his country without 100 percent evidence he was a threat to America or Americans.

Now that Bush went into Iraq to "shock and awe" the Irqqis, we are now after three years suffering the consequeces of a misguided war.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 08:35 pm
parados wrote:
From your link McG


Quote:
But last year, after 12 years, Iraq had still not accounted fully for its WMD programs.




They hadn't accounted for their programs? Where were the WMD you keep claiming?


Why do you bother to post this drivel?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 08:40 pm
McGentrix wrote:
parados wrote:
From your link McG


Quote:
But last year, after 12 years, Iraq had still not accounted fully for its WMD programs.




They hadn't accounted for their programs? Where were the WMD you keep claiming?


Why do you bother to post this drivel?


Because it gives you the opportunity to prove you can't provide any evidence. Always good for a chuckle.

Your article McG.. It states only WMD programs were unnaccounted for. Maybe you really don't know the difference between an actual WMD and a program. That's good for a chuckle too. :wink:
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 08:45 pm
parados wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
parados wrote:
From your link McG


Quote:
But last year, after 12 years, Iraq had still not accounted fully for its WMD programs.




They hadn't accounted for their programs? Where were the WMD you keep claiming?


Why do you bother to post this drivel?


Because it gives you the opportunity to prove you can't provide any evidence. Always good for a chuckle.

Your article McG.. It states only WMD programs were unnaccounted for. Maybe you really don't know the difference between an actual WMD and a program. That's good for a chuckle too. :wink:


No, what you are doing is proving to me that you either have difficulty grasping the written word, or you let your need to pick a fight over-ride your inability to discuss the article and the WMD's discussed therein.

Perhaps, if you review the article again, you will note the paragraph immediately after the single line you picked out. Go ahead and re-read it, I'll wait.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 09:59 pm
McG, If you have better information than Colin Powell about Iraq's WMDs, please provide "your" evidence.


Powell casts doubt on Iraq WMDs

US Secretary of State Colin Powell has conceded that Iraq may not have possessed any stocks of weapons of mass destruction before the war last year.

His comments came after the former head of the US weapons inspection team, David Kay, said he did not believe there were any weapons stockpiles.

Mr Powell was speaking on his way to the former Soviet republic of Georgia.

Less than a year ago, Mr Powell warned the United Nations Security Council about the danger from Iraq's weapons.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 10:09 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Iraq starts a war with a neighbor country turning the oil market on it's head badly damaging the US economy.

So it's a war on poverty?!?!?

Good God. We went to war for our standard of living.

Every time I think you've reached your moral nadir, McG, you prove me wrong.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 10:23 pm
From McG's article (you just have to love the whiny tone):

Quote:
Much has been made of the fact that an intelligence claim about Iraq's effort to acquire uranium from Africa proved to be erroneous. But few people seem to have noticed when the intelligence was correct.

Last September the British WMD dossier pointed to the fact that Iraq was producing missiles beyond range limits imposed by the UN.

That was validated in March by UNMOVIC, the UN's monitoring, verification and inspection commission when it declared that Iraq's Al-Samoud missiles to be proscribed.

A trailer found since the conflict has been assessed by US and British specialists to be a mobile biological weapons laboratory. This matches intelligence provided by the US Secretary of State, Colin Powell, to the UN in December.


Now, this sounds like a serious accusation, when in fact it isn't. The article's talking about the Al-Samoud missile. Iraq was allowed to own missiles with a range up to 150km (or 93 miles). However, UNMOVIC experts said that these missiles had a range of up to 180km (111 miles). Without a payload. There was discussion over whether the missiles including payloads would fall within the allowed range, but in the end Iraq agreed on their destruction.

10 missiles were destroyed under UNMOVIC supervision, but the invasion of Iraq interrupted Iraq's destruction of the remainder.

The trailer the article talks about was hailed as proof that Iraq had indeed been using mobile biological weapons laboratories. That's obviously what people wanted to believe, and it prompted President Bush to claim:

Quote:
We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories. You remember when Colin Powell stood up in front of the world, and he said, Iraq has got laboratories, mobile labs to build biological weapons. They're illegal. They're against the United Nations resolutions, and we've so far discovered two. And we'll find more weapons as time goes on. But for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them.


That sounded nice, but was wrong. Scott Ritter admitted that, when he later said:

Quote:
The discovery by U.S. forces in Iraq of two mobile 'biological weapons laboratories' was touted by President Bush as clear evidence that Iraq possessed illegal weapons capabilities. However, it now is clear that these so-called labs were nothing more than hydrogen generation units based upon British technology acquired by Iraq in the 1980s, used to fill weather balloons in support of conventional artillery operations, and have absolutely no application for the production of biological agents.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 11:31 pm
snood wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
snood wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
snood wrote:
Unless of course all that talk about "danger to our nation" was ginned-up propaganda to sell a war Bush had already decided to fight. But we'd need a Downing Street Memo or something concrete to indicate that was the case. Ah, well...

I'll make this simple: WMD are very dangerous, and we were in a state of uncertainty as to whether Iraq had or had not destroyed those weapons and development programs. That's the danger. See?


I'll make this simple - Bush had decided to go to war before he even tried to make the case to get anyone's approval, so all his blather about "last resort" was a lie - get it?

Even if what you say were true, it would at most mean that Bush did the right thing for the wrong reason or in the wrong way. It was still the right thing, because it was necessary to stop a real danger, based on the reason I give in my post to you above, which you apparently decline to address.



Have I missed the ceremony? Did anyone perform last rites on your objectivity? I want to attend - I had such high hopes... Sad

Comments on the poster, unaccompanied by any on-topic argument, are always without merit. Unless you address my arguments, you lose, and it must be, at least formally, assumed that you cannot. That is the universal rule of all debate.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 11:34 pm
DrewDad wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Even if what you say were true, it would at most mean that Bush did the right thing for the wrong reason or in the wrong way. It was still the right thing, because it was necessary to stop a real danger, based on the reason I give in my post to you above, which you apparently decline to address.

So Bush invaded Iraq with the best of intentions? The road to hell just got some new pavement!

It was his intention to make sure that the world would never have to pay the awful price of stopping a Saddam Hussein armed with doomsday weapons. Invasion was correct, since even a moderate probability of an unimaginably awful outcome is very serious. We will be in similar situations in the future, and if diplomacy fails, we will have to invade again. If we do not, then we run the risk of facing an evil dictator armed with WMD.
0 Replies
 
 

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