Quote:That is probably correct judging from what you see. But those men who don't compete aren't seen so much. There's still a majority of those that do. And then it's a question of who they are competing with and what at.
Is it men or women? There's a question. Is it for money or pride?
That's a good point. Because sometimes what looks like a competitive spirit or act isn't related to competition at all. It's just a person expressing his or her natural gifts or talents, not in search of any recognition, but because it is something they were born to do. So it may not be for money
or for pride - it may just be for personal fulfillment.
I really think someone like Lance Armstrong is compelled to do what he does. I think he'd be riding his bike as fast and hard as he could whether there were people watching and a prize at the end or not. It just so happens he's really good at doing something people like to watch.
Quote:It suffuses our way of life in the media picture. Media itself is competitive and is staffed by competitive people. They did a programme recently about a bunch of allotment folks and it was nice and calming and old fashioned but they had a competition at the end. Who had the best onions.
They didn't fry them mind you to decide. They just looked at them. There was a prize for every veggie. But you can bet that somewhere on the allotment there were other types who only grew to eat or to get away from the wife who would be sat in a deck chair while all the prize giving fuss was going off.
I totally agree. I picture a guy like Thoreau sitting in that deck chair (and as a matter of fact, working an allotment to get time alone). Reminds one that those people who like to stay in the background should, in fact, never be underestimated. They may be much more interesting and confident than those in the spotlight. Maybe they just don't need all the hoopla. That's attractive in itself.
Quote:I would say it is a natural urge. Probably associated with sexual selection and then diverted into pride. Maybe it can be overcome like other natural urges can be. There's a natural urge to lie in bed,especially in winter, and yet some of them jump out at 6 am,take a cold shower and run 10 miles with a haversack full of bricks on their backs. What do you make of that for asceticism. It's a lot easier conquering the competitive urge than it is to conquer the snoozesnuggle urge.
I don't trust anyone who can overcome that snoozesnuggle urge too easily. And who'd like to mate with someone who makes them feel like a slug for lying in bed and staying warm in the winter? Those totally driven types scare the hell out of me- what are they running to or from? Lance Armstrong, though he's doing what he was apparently born to do, and he's very good at it, would not be my choice of mate. Compulsion is somewhat scary to me. Think Tom Cruise - yuck. When I read about his wife and child, I just think, "What has she gotten herself and that poor child into?"
Quote:Women are competitive too but some are not and these get subjected to pressure to conform. They lower the tone is the feeling. Women just compete in different areas and they are more and more competing with men as well as amongst themselves.
True. And women tend to compete in less obvious and more surreptitious ways (except for sportswomen - then it's pretty straight forward).
How do people lower the tone by not competing though? I think, if anything, they
raise the bar by pointing out that whatever is being competed for might not even be worthy criteria for a competition, and so is not worthy of that particular person's participation. I definitely don't think competition should be compulsory, or that people who refuse to compete are lacking in any way. Maybe they just don't have anything to prove.
Quote:And generally people compete in those things they are good at. If you're no good at anything you can always compete at gardening because all you need is application. Endless, mind-numbing, back-breaking application following the seasonal treadmill.
Well, yes. If you're going to compete- chances are you hope to win- so you choose an activity you're good at. Unless you're trying to test yourself and gain skills in some new arena, and you don't mind others watching as you learn.
Sorry though, you're just wrong about gardeners. Many are artists. And most are wonderfully serene and settled people. There's a lot of peace to be found in working the earth and producing something vital to your family and other people (food- and healthy food at that).
In fact, did you know that there's a movement among gardeners and horticulturalists to plant all bare earth with something green to help reduce CO2 emissions in this country? Some people are even advocating planting on the roofs of houses and buildings. I think that would be lovely. Gardening well and correctly takes a myriad of admirable traits and skills - patience most of all. And that is something we need more of in our society. Never underestimate a gardener.
Quote:But the real irony,which you fail to address, is that it is women who make men compete by bestowing their sexual favours on those who meet with their approval. Whenever you have said,or thought, "I fancy him" or "I don't fancy him" you have accepted such a principle. In fact you have felt it viscerally. One might say that the Islamic approach to women is tailored specifically to inhibit that feminine urge in order to avoid certain manifestations of it which can be seen in societies which encourage it. And you ladies try to look attractive in order to have the widest choice. And you encourage your children to compete.
I can't speak for any other woman but myself, but I truly am more attracted to men who refuse to compete to gain a woman's favors. I trust the men most who are just who they are, doing what they want to do with their lives. And then, yes, I watch and I react viscerally and say "I fancy
him." But it's not about how he stacks up with other men. It's about how or who or what he is within
himself, and whether or not that will fit with how or who or what I am within myself.
If a woman marries someone who is most interested in how she looks, she's let herself in for a long, hard road of frustration, because as the years goes by, it's just gonna take more and more work to achieve the same effect. And who wants a guy who cares more about how you look than who you are?
I read once about a woman who got up everyday an hour before her husband to appply her make-up and fix her hair so he never had to see her as she really was. That's just sad. I refuse to compete on that level. I groom myself to my own satisfaction. And it appeals to some males, and not to others. I'm not interested in those who would have me be something other than what I am- and I never have been.
I think every couple should go camping together before they get married. So they can see each other as they really are - and then make the decision- based on reality- not some fantasy.
Yes, some women live through the accomplishments of their children. I try not to, because I think it's sad and manipulative, and doesn't allow the children to express their true selves or interests - they're too busy being made to fulfill the dreams of their mother- making
her look good- something she should have enough pride and energy to do for herself. It is sad the way some adults use children, isn't it?
Quote:So it's a bit self-indulgent for ladies to claim the moral high ground and castigate men for being competitive don't you think. It relies for its effect on an audience that walks around in a daze.
Who me? Was I castigating? I was just talking about what worries me about this war. I, in general, fully accept that men are different than woman and appreciate it. I find their openness about the need to compete and their sporting spirit refreshing, especially compared to the different types of underhanded competitions a lot of women engage in. At least you guys follow rules that make some sort of sense.
Quote:When Bob Hope introduced Ms Monroe to the troops in Korea it was with the immortal words- "Here ya are boys-what you're fighting for". I might not have the exacts words though. There's a fabulous scene in Apocalypse Now with the same import but it's a bit cruder.
And finally, this just underscores why women feel they need to compete on the fronts that they do. If they believe (as the media would have us believe) that a man is only interested in someone who looks like Marilyn Monroe- what's a normal, average girl gonna do?
I think having realistic expectations, for ourselves and others of the opposite sex would make everyone so much happier in the long run, don't you?
This was interesting to think about. Can you believe I got another sunny day? Maybe I'll do some gardening. Have you ever considered getting an allotment?
