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Slobodan Milosevic found dead in his cell

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 12:56 pm
gungasnake wrote:
It seems obvious enough to me that they've killed this guy (Milosevic) for the same basic reason they killed Christ.


It's true: Stalinists like gunga forget their Christian heritage completely.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2006 12:33 am
The first results of an autopsy on Slobodan Milosevic last night showed that the former Yugoslav president died of a heart attack, though further analysis is needed to confirm that this was brought on by natural causes.


source: today's papers, various agencies
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2006 07:44 am
Milosevic was apparently pooisoned with some sort of a drug normally used to treat leprosy, which he did not have, and that is after having repeatedly asked to be allowed to have his heart condition treated in Moscow and being refused.

Denial of medical treatment was a factor in Jim McDougal's death as well.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2006 09:19 am
gungasnake wrote:
Milosevic was apparently pooisoned with some sort of a drug normally used to treat leprosy, which he did not have, and that is after having repeatedly asked to be allowed to have his heart condition treated in Moscow and being refused.


Thanks for publishing the complete results of the autopsy, the coroner's verdict and the police investigation before the press relase.

It's deeply appriciated, gunga!
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kosmos-SErbia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2006 05:28 pm
@dagmaraka-people hate him as much as west...
big percentage of people,but those radical ones write graffittis (i'm not sure it spells like that) with message like RIP SLOBO and other...
I'm only sorry for him like an torchured man who died unnaturally...they gave him wrong medicine.
He was killed by the ones who speak about Law and Order. I would prefer he died on Terazije in Central Belgrade.. He deserved that..

As far as KOsovo concern, it's lost way ago before Milosevic and '99.. Then it was obvious...But we lost it during Tito's dictature.. Radical people think different so they probabky think there is a chance.
many of them are ready to go Down there and to deffend the Holy Land..Silly people they are...
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2006 06:57 pm
glad to hear that, kosmos. i read a lot about 'thousands' who flock to pay last respects, who mourn in public places, etc. i assume media want their sensations no matter what.

there are radicals in every country. just look at this one. i hope that the talks on Kosovo will proceed smoothly even if they are not conclusive and that there won't be much of rough weather in Serbia and Kosovo due to all this.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2006 08:12 pm
We've got losers here in America too. We call them democrats...
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2006 09:07 pm
or republicans. there are losers and extremists in both camps. luckily i'm a foreigner.
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kosmos-SErbia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Mar, 2006 07:22 am
kosovo should be a part of my contry..I'm sorry about those silly Albanians who think that that's going to be their lands..Americans are already bying mines and plants...
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Mar, 2006 07:24 am
nimh wrote:
The Serbs were finally getting round to the stage in "Vergangenheitsbewaeltigung" where they faced up to what they did (though no thanks to PM Kostunica) - and they did so with quite a shock, too. The video from Srebrenica, showing how tied-up Bosnian men were unloaded from a van by paramilitaries and shot, which was released and then screened on national TV last year, was one of those jolt-moments.

There's been a number of high-profile court cases on war crimes recently even in Serbia itself, with much accompanying self-critical discussion, and even nationalist politicians like Draskovic have called in the harshest possible terms for the surrender and extradition of Mladic, putting it in terms of saving the nation by doing so.


More hopeful signs on this count in the Serbia thread:

Quote:
Serbs Divided Over Rape Film

Rave reviews for controversial movie hint at changing attitudes to war crimes in Serbia, but Bosnian Serbs refuse to show it.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Mar, 2006 07:37 am
kosmos-SErbia wrote:
I'm only sorry for him like an torchured man who died unnaturally...they gave him wrong medicine.
He was killed by the ones who speak about Law and Order.

Hi Kosmos. Is that the opinion generally expressed in the Serbian media?

The Boston Globe summarises two takes on that.

The official line is: too early to tell. Full autopsy results are not in yet, the autopsy itself was attended by Serbian pathologists and filmed, so no need to fear for a cover-up.

Quote:
A preliminary autopsy report Sunday indicated Milosevic had died of a heart attack, but toxicology tests were still underway. The tribunal said it expected results later this week.

The autopsy was conducted by Dutch scientists and attended by Serbian pathologists. Serbia said the autopsy had been professional and procedure filmed.


Quote:
A UN tribunal official said it was too early to say whether the heart attack might have been caused by poisoning or whether suicide could be ruled out.


Another take has been that Milosevic might have either tried to commit suicide, or at least tried to worsen his health so he would be allowed to go to Moscow after all.

Quote:
Saying she was furious Milosevic's victims had been denied justice, UN chief prosecutor Carla del Ponte suggested he might have killed himself to evade a verdict, noting that former Croatian Serb leader Milan Babic committed suicide at the jail last week.


Quote:
Groningen University toxicologist Donald Uges said he thought Milosevic had knowingly taken harmful medicines to improve his case for going for medical treatment to Russia [..]

''I don't think he took his medicines for suicide -- only for his trip to Moscow . . . that is where his friends and family are. I think that was his last possibility to escape The Hague," Uges said. ''I am so sure there is no murder."

Uges said tests he conducted two weeks ago on Milosevic's blood showed traces of rifampicin -- a drug used against leprosy and tuberculosis that would have neutralized other medicines.
0 Replies
 
kosmos-SErbia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Mar, 2006 08:37 am
@nimh No It's not the general impression. People are now talking about a place where the funeral is going to take place..the Goverment forbids using of Army for his funeral.. Socialists want him in Aley of Famous sth like that in Belgrade but people does not agree with it. Someone said that people are crying for him-that's not true..the only thing is that few of then want to take advantage of all this by getting new voters.. someone now loves him and someone hates him.. strange people we are,
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Mar, 2006 08:38 am
Well, sounds like pretty much the same thing that would happen anywhere! Alas...
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kosmos-SErbia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Mar, 2006 08:42 am
it does?
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Mar, 2006 09:53 am
Well, when Pim Fortuyn was shot in Holland, you had the politicians who suddenly claimed to have really liked/respected him all along - you had the politicians trying to capitalise on the event to score extra points with voters (it happening mere days from the election) - you had the politicians who piously declared that the event should not be used for campaigns, and you just knew that they said so because they'd stand to lose on the subject...

You had a big ol' argument about where he should be buried and commemorated and how, leading to a rather baroque solution (a commemoration march and church service in Rotterdam, followed by an actual symbolic funeral elsewhere in Holland, followed by the casket being flown to Fortuyn's Italian second home where he was really buried) -- you had arguments about who should be allowed or not allowed to attend the church ceremony - you had claims that the government had been complicit in his murder by deliberately neglecting to safeguard him - and of course you had an outpour of public grief with people leaving flowers and teddybears and letters to "Pim", even people who hadnt actually much cared yet just before ...

I dunno. Yes - Serbia is a special case of course. But opportunistic politicians, irrational arguments and hysteric partisans are of all places...
0 Replies
 
Paaskynen
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 04:53 am
kosmos-SErbia wrote:
I'm only sorry for him like an torchured man who died unnaturally...they gave him wrong medicine.
He was killed by the ones who speak about Law and Order.


I remember Milosevich as devoid of scrupules and with as only goal in life to attain and cling to power. This became blatantly obvious to me when in the second half of the 1980s he turned from a model communist into a archetypal nationalist (simply a matter of securing a power base in a changing political landscape). His actions and inactions were in the very first place responsible for the wars in Croatia and Bosnia which cost an estimated 120 000 lives and destroyed economy and infrastructure. Many negotiators from EU and UN were sent to Belgrade to talk sense into him, but all they ever got was false promises that were never kept. All these diplomats describe him as a smart and charming manipulator, who (like Hitler) would sooner see his whole country go down with him rather than let go of power.

I find it very plausible that Milosevich inadvertently killed himself in an attempt to obtain a ticket to Russia and the reasons for that assumption are:
- Milosevich insisted on going to Moscow (in a country, that does not recognise the ICC, where family members live) for treatment, whereas there are excellent medical facilities much closer by.
- Bad health was an excellent excuse to hold up and draw out the trial.
- He got himself a lawyer (while always insisting on conducting his own defence earlier). He needed a lawyer to stand in for him while he was in Moscow.
- He wrote a letter about being poisoned which his lawyer did not make public until after his death. This letter would be an excuse in case the drug he was using to induce bad health would be found in his blood.
- The drug (Rifadin®, Rifater®, or Rimactane®) that was employed (and found earlier by a Dutch toxicologist) cancels or reduces the effects of a wide range of other drugs, notably blood pressure drugs. So even if he would be subjected to forced medication (of various heart medicines) he could still counter that treatment with one drug.
- There is no motive on the side of the ICC to have Milosevich killed, quite the contrary, their interest was in seeing him alive and well, convicted for his crimes.
- If NATO, or another organisation beloved by conspiracy theorists, would have wanted Milosevich killed, they would have done it in such a way that no foul play would be discovered. There are several drugs that can induce cardiac arrest without leaving a trace, for instance.

I believe it is most likely that Milosevich wanted to manipulate everyone one more time, to escape justice and have the last laugh.

And that is my five Eurocents (the 1 and 2 cents coins were never circulated in Finland).
0 Replies
 
Paaskynen
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 04:56 am
kosmos-SErbia wrote:
I'm only sorry for him like an torchured man who died unnaturally...they gave him wrong medicine.
He was killed by the ones who speak about Law and Order.


I remember Milosevich as devoid of scrupules and with as only goal in life to attain and cling to power. This became blatantly obvious to me when in the second half of the 1980s he turned from a model communist into a archetypal nationalist (simply a matter of securing a power base in a changing political landscape). His actions and inactions were in the very first place responsible for the wars in Croatia and Bosnia which cost an estimated 120 000 lives and destroyed economy and infrastructure. Many negotiators from EU and UN were sent to Belgrade to talk sense into him, but all they ever got was false promises that were never kept. All these diplomats describe him as a smart and charming manipulator, who (like Hitler) would sooner see his whole country go down with him rather than let go of power.

I find it very plausible that Milosevich inadvertently killed himself in an attempt to obtain a ticket to Russia and the reasons for that assumption are:
- Milosevich insisted on going to Moscow (in a country, that does not recognise the ICC, where family members live) for treatment, whereas there are excellent medical facilities much closer by.
- Bad health was an excellent excuse to hold up and draw out the trial.
- He got himself a lawyer (while always insisting on conducting his own defence earlier). He needed a lawyer to stand in for him while he was in Moscow.
- He wrote a letter about being poisoned which his lawyer did not make public until after his death. This letter would be an excuse in case the drug he was using to induce bad health would be found in his blood.
- The drug (Rifadin®, Rifater®, or Rimactane®) that was employed (and found earlier by a Dutch toxicologist) cancels or reduces the effects of a wide range of other drugs, notably blood pressure drugs. So even if he would be subjected to forced medication (of various heart medicines) he could still counter that treatment with one drug.
- It was been easier for Milosevich than for normal prosoners to obtain banned substances, since the ICC was so respectful of his rights (innocent until proven guilty) that he was largely unsupervised in his comfortable centre of detention.
- There is no motive on the side of the ICC to have Milosevich killed, quite the contrary, their interest was in seeing him alive and well, convicted for his crimes.
- If NATO, or another organisation beloved by conspiracy theorists, would have wanted Milosevich killed, they would not have done it which such an easily detectable compound; they would have done it in such a way that no foul play would be discovered. There are, for instance, drugs that can induce cardiac arrest (certainly in someone who already suffers from heart problems) almost without leaving a trace.

I believe it is most likely that Milosevich wanted to manipulate everyone one more time, to escape justice and have the last laugh.

And that is my five Eurocents (the 1 and 2 cents coins were never circulated in Finland).
0 Replies
 
kosmos-SErbia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 09:08 am
I agree with you but you have to look clearly on things.. No man,especially not Milosevic wouldn't take drugs and suffer so slowly...
Last laugh?

It's obvious that ur from European union....

think again...
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 12:30 pm
Judges at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia today that confidential materials in the Slobodan Milosevic case be made available to an ICTY inquiry team and Dutch authorities investigating the circumstances of the former Yugoslav president's death last weekend.

Under the order, case materials that had been kept confidential because of personal information about Milosevic will be provided to aid the investigators but the information will remain otherwise confidential.

The decision comes after ICTY President Judge Fausto Pocar directed [order, PDF] the court's Trial Chamber to consider varying or lifting protective measures applied to certain materials in the Milosevic case.

ICTY press release
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 08:10 am
Judge Fausto Pocar, president of the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, released updated results Friday from the autopsy on Slobodan Milosevic indicating that toxicological tests undertaken by Dutch investigators showed "no indications" of poisoning, contrary to a claim allegedly made by the indicted ex-Yugoslav president before his sudden death Saturday.
While stressing that the results were still provisional and that the examination would continue next week, the Hague District Public Prosecutor's Office said [letter] that in particular it had found no traces of rifampicine, a drug used to treat TB that could have counteracted Milosevic's heart medications. The office noted, however, that the drug does not persist long in the body; earlier this week a Dutch toxicologist said that blood tests he performed on Milosevic several weeks ago while he was still alive showed the presence of the drug.

Pocar also announced Friday that in the face of what he called "media speculation with regard to the running of the UN Detention Unit" where Milosevic was housed, he was ordering another audit of the facility, although he expressed "full confidence" in its staff, noting that previous independent inspections had shown that "conditions in the Detention Unit are of the very highest standard."

Reiterating the Tribinal's regret that Milosevic could not be brought to judgment, Pocar insisted that the Tribunal still had significant work to do:
Quote:
We recognize that this case was an important one. However, it is not the only important case that the Tribunal's judges have before them. We continue to try the highest-level persons accused of perpetrating the most serious crimes against Serb, Croat, Bosnian Muslim, Albanian and other victims in the former Yugoslavia. In closing, I would like to emphasize that the Tribunal remains absolutely committed to fulfilling its critical mandate to render justice in these cases as fairly and expeditiously as possible.


Full text of Pocar's statement
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