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Slobodan Milosevic found dead in his cell

 
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 10:49 pm
yeah, dlowan. i got it. i knew you weren't reacting to gunga, heh....
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 10:51 pm
Gunga's right.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 10:52 pm
Good riddance. In the words of my favorite genius, Forest Gump, "one less thing."
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 10:54 pm
i tend to agree, o'bill. not too many will grieve for his death.

cj, gunga's right that milosevic was a good leader fighting for his nation? is that what you believe?
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 10:57 pm
The enemy is within.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 11:01 pm
huh? within what? serbia? milosevic himself?
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 11:08 pm
All you guys really know or care about anything is what you read in the Wash Posxt or NY Times, right?

Try this on for size. This is a NY times article about Kosovo from late 87, i.e. before Milosevic rescinded the autonomy of the province to protect the other ethnic groups living there from the Albanian Kosovars:

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/ddj/Kosovo/articles/Binder87NYT.htm


The New York Times
November 1, 1987,
Sunday, Late City Final Edition
Section 1; Part 1, Page 14, Column 1;

"In Yugoslavia, Rising Ethnic Strife Brings Fears of Worse Civil Conflict"

By DAVID BINDER, Special to the New York Times

BELGRADE, Yugoslavia

Portions of southern Yugoslavia have reached such a state of ethnic friction that Yugoslavs have begun to talk of the horrifying possibility of ''civil war'' in a land that lost one-tenth of its population, or 1.7 million people, in World War II.

The current hostilities pit separatist-minded ethnic Albanians against the various Slavic populations of Yugoslavia and occur at all levels of society, from the highest officials to the humblest peasants.

A young Army conscript of ethnic Albanian origin shot up his barracks, killing four sleeping Slavic bunkmates and wounding six others.

The army says it has uncovered hundreds of subversive ethnic Albanian cells in its ranks. Some arsenals have been raided.

Vicious Insults

Ethnic Albanians in the Government have manipulated public funds and regulations to take over land belonging to Serbs. And politicians have exchanged vicious insults.

Slavic Orthodox churches have been attacked, and flags have been torn down. Wells have been poisoned and crops burned. Slavic boys have been knifed, and some young ethnic Albanians have been told by their elders to rape Serbian girls.

Ethnic Albanians comprise the fastest growing nationality in Yugoslavia and are expected soon to become its third largest, after the Serbs and Croats.

Radicals' Goals

The goal of the radical nationalists among them, one said in an interview, is an ''ethnic Albania that includes western Macedonia, southern Montenegro, part of southern Serbia, Kosovo and Albania itself.'' That includes large chunks of the republics that make up the southern half of Yugoslavia.

Other ethnic Albanian separatists admit to a vision of a greater Albania governed from Pristina in southern Yugoslavia rather than Tirana, the capital of neighboring Albania.

There is no evidence that the hard-line Communist Government in Tirana is giving them material assistance.

The principal battleground is the region called Kosovo, a high plateau ringed by mountains that is somewhat smaller than New Jersey. Ethnic Albanians there make up 85 percent of the population of 1.7 million. The rest are Serbians and Montenegrins.

Worst Strife in Years

As Slavs flee the protracted violence, Kosovo is becoming what ethnic Albanian nationalists have been demanding for years, and especially strongly since the bloody rioting by ethnic Albanians in Pristina in 1981 - an ''ethnically pure'' Albanian region, a ''Republic of Kosovo'' in all but name.

The violence, a journalist in Kosovo said, is escalating to ''the worst in the last seven years.'' ...

Were the ethnic tensions restricted to Kosovo, Yugoslavia's problems with its Albanian nationals might be more manageable. But some Yugoslavs and some ethnic Albanians believe the struggle has spread far beyond Kosovo. Macedonia, a republic to the south with a population of 1.8 million, has a restive ethnic Albanian minority of 350,000.

''We've already lost western Macedonia to the Albanians,'' said a member of the Yugoslav party presidium, explaining that the ethnic minority had driven the Slavic Macedonians out of the region.

Attacks on Slavs

Last summer, the authorities in Kosovo said they documented 40 ethnic Albanian attacks on Slavs in two months. In the last two years, 320 ethnic Albanians have been sentenced for political crimes, nearly half of them characterized as severe.

In one incident, Fadil Hoxha, once the leading politician of ethnic Albanian origin in Yugoslavia, joked at an official dinner in Prizren last year that Serbian women should be used to satisfy potential ethnic Albanian rapists. After his quip was reported this October, Serbian women in Kosovo protested, and Mr. Hoxha was dismissed from the Communist Party.

As a precaution, the central authorities dispatched 380 riot police officers to the Kosovo region for the first time in four years.

Officials in Belgrade view the ethnic Albanian challenge as imperiling the foundations of the multinational experiment called federal Yugoslavia, which consists of six republics and two provinces.

'Lebanonizing' of Yugoslavia

High-ranking officials have spoken of the ''Lebanonizing'' of their country and have compared its troubles to the strife in Northern Ireland.

Borislav Jovic, a member of the Serbian party's presidency, spoke in an interview of the prospect of ''two Albanias, one north and one south, like divided Germany or Korea,'' and of ''practically the breakup of Yugoslavia.'' He added: ''Time is working against us.''

The federal Secretary for National Defense, Fleet Adm. Branko Mamula, told the army's party organization in September of efforts by ethnic Albanians to subvert the armed forces. ''Between 1981 and 1987 a total of 216 illegal organizations with 1,435 members of Albanian nationality were discovered in the Yugoslav People's Army,'' he said. Admiral Mamula said ethnic Albanian subversives had been preparing for ''killing officers and soldiers, poisoning food and water, sabotage, breaking into weapons arsenals and stealing arms and ammunition, desertion and causing flagrant nationalist incidents in army units.''

Concerns Over Military

Coming three weeks after the ethnic Albanian draftee, Aziz Kelmendi, had slaughtered his Slavic comrades in the barracks at Paracin, the speech struck fear in thousands of families whose sons were about to start their mandatory year of military service.

Because the Albanians have had a relatively high birth rate, one-quarter of the army's 200,000 conscripts this year are ethnic Albanians. Admiral Mamula suggested that 3,792 were potential human timebombs.

He said the army had ''not been provided with details relevant for assessing their behavior.'' But a number of Belgrade politicians said they doubted the Yugoslav armed forces would be used to intervene in Kosovo as they were to quell violent rioting in 1981 in Pristina. They reason that the army leadership is extremely reluctant to become involved in what is, in the first place, a political issue.

Ethnic Albanians already control almost every phase of life in the autonomous province of Kosovo, including the police, judiciary, civil service, schools and factories.

Non-Albanian visitors almost immediately feel the independence - and suspicion - of the ethnic Albanian authorities.

Region's Slavs Lack Strength

While 200,000 Serbs and Montenegrins still live in the province, they are scattered and lack cohesion. In the last seven years, 20,000 of them have fled the province, often leaving behind farmsteads and houses, for the safety of the Slavic north.

Until September, the majority of the Serbian Communist Party leadership pursued a policy of seeking compromise with the Kosovo party hierarchy under its ethnic Albanian leader, Azem Vlasi.

But during a 30-hour session of the Serbian central committee in late September, the Serbian party secretary, Slobodan Milosevic, deposed Dragisa Pavlovic, as head of Belgrade's party organization, the country's largest. Mr. Milosevic accused Mr. Pavlovic of being an appeaser who was soft on Albanian radicals. Mr. Milosevic had courted the Serbian backlash vote with speeches in Kosovo itself calling for ''the policy of the hard hand.''...

Remzi Koljgeci, of the Kosovo party leadership, said in an interview in Pristina that ''relations are cold'' between the ethnic Albanians and Serbs of the province, that there were too many ''people without hope.''...

Efforts are under way to strengthen central authority through amendments to the constitution. ...The hope is that something will be done then to exert the rule of law in Kosovo while drawing ethnic Albanians back into Yugoslavia's mainstream.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 11:11 pm
So?

Anyone here saying Albanians are angels? What is your point?
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 11:13 pm
Here's another really good resource for anybody interested in actually comprehending the Balkans (as opposed to parroting NATO and Klintlerista propaganda):

http://tenc.net/
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 11:14 pm
I'm worried about this.

The Serbs were finally getting round to the stage in "Vergangenheitsbewaeltigung" where they faced up to what they did (though no thanks to PM Kostunica) - and they did so with quite a shock, too. The video from Srebrenica, showing how tied-up Bosnian men were unloaded from a van by paramilitaries and shot, which was released and then screened on national TV last year, was one of those jolt-moments.

There's been a number of high-profile court cases on war crimes recently even in Serbia itself, with much accompanying self-critical discussion, and even nationalist politicians like Draskovic have called in the harshest possible terms for the surrender and extradition of Mladic, putting it in terms of saving the nation by doing so.

And now this. This will be "corn on the mill" (as we say in Dutch) for the conspiracy theorists - and theres traditionally lots of those in the Balkans, more even than elsewhere. (Grist - grist on the mill). The nationalists and Milosevic's socialists will do anything they can to encourage the rumors. They might try to make Milosevic a martyr of sorts.

Its especially unfortunate so short after the death of Bobic, the former Serb Krajina leader, also in The Hague. Grist for the mill, thats what Im afraid of. Its not like South-East Europe hasnt got enough martyrs to carry around (and provoke new conflicts from their grave) already.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 11:17 pm
Yes, nimh. I am worried about that, too. Especially with the Kosovo talks under hand, this is bad timing. And that right after Rugova died.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 11:18 pm
Albanians and the "Power of the Penis"
Europeans in countries close to Albania call it "rabbit breeding their way to power". Basically, it means ensconsing themselves in little corners of the other guy's country, doing their breeding thing for the next 25 years, and then trying to use demographics as a rationale for breaking the little corner off into their "Greater Albania", which they came close to realizing with their alliance with the axis powers in WW-II and feel the world still basically owes them.

Here is one English Diplomat's impression of it:

http://www.balkanpeace.org/hed/archive/apr04/hed6362.shtml

British MP's criticize Western policy in Kosovo

The following text is an excerpt from a speech made by Tam Dalyell British MP and long-term opponent of war-policy of PM Blair (though he is in the same party) and following that is an excerpt of the speech from Mrs. Alice Mahon British MP who has devoted huge energy to publicising the plight of Serbs:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200304/cmhansrd/cm040325/debtext/40325-25.htm

Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow) (Lab)

I shall simply relate a personal experience, and I hope to be forgiven for crudity. I went to stay for four days in Kosovo with my national service regiment, the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards, which was on duty there. In the presence of the then colonel, David Allfrey, and the then second in command, now colonel of the regiment, Ben Edwards, I was able to talk at length with some of the local Albanian leaders. I would not have had that conversation had not the guns of the British Army been behind me, because they were pretty rough customers. They were truculent, saying, to put it crudely, "
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 11:18 pm
nimh wrote:
There's been a number of high-profile court cases on war crimes recently even in Serbia itself, with much accompanying self-critical discussion

I posted a bunch of news summaries from November/December about those HERE
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 11:20 pm
<nimh, you have GOT TO change your sig. every time i see it, i can't get that bloody song out of my head for hours!!!>
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 11:21 pm
Gunga, if you're going to post endless copy/pastes, could you at least keep 'em reasonably on-topic?

This is hardly the thread to regurgitate the entire history of the Yugoslav wars, or even just the Kosovo one ...

Even better would be to just post the link, if you've got one anyway, or the first two or three paragraphs or something..
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 11:22 pm
nimh wrote:
I'm worried about this.

The Serbs were finally getting round to the stage in "Vergangenheitsbewaeltigung" where they faced up to what they did (though no thanks to PM Kostunica) - and they did so with quite a shock, too. The video from Srebrenica, showing how tied-up Bosnian men were unloaded from a van by paramilitaries and shot, which was released and then screened on national TV last year, was one of those jolt-moments.
.


The really big question regarding that sort of thing is this:

After Trnopolja, what part of that kind of bullshit are we supposed to go on believing??

http://www.emperors-clothes.com/film/judgment.htm
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 11:23 pm
Hee Dag! <sings> Dont cha wish your girlfriend was RAW like me, now dontcha...
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 11:23 pm
nimh wrote:
Gunga, if you're going to post endless copy/pastes, could you at least keep 'em reasonably on-topic?

This is hardly the thread to regurgitate the entire history of the Yugoslav wars, or even just the Kosovo one ...

Even better would be to just post the link, if you've got one anyway, or the first two or three paragraphs or something..


I know, I know, (re)educating your ilk is a dirty job, but somebody's gotta do it.....
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 11:23 pm
Re: Slobodan Milosevic found dead in his cell
gungasnake wrote:
dagmaraka wrote:
...and that's all I know as of now. Just heard it on the radio. I don't tend to be mean, in fact I believe everybody is good at his/her core, some people just get corrupted on the way... but I wish Milosevic lived long enough to see the end of his trial. He, in a sense, embodied the ICTY, the tribunal that prosecutes genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity in former Yugoslavia. Here is a link to one of the longer recent articles I just fond online from Reuters:

LINK


So now we have a case of Arkancide at the Hague...

I'd have paid a hundred dollars to watch the spetznaz rescue Milosevic. Two hundred if they could have shot the Hague to pieces in the process...

The only thing in the world this guy was ever guilty of was trying to protect his country from the same kinds of people who other Europeans are just now finding out they're going to ultimately have to heave out of Europe.


Ah, first brayings of the psychopathic genocide supporting extreme right, as they labour in their foul charnel house to cobble together a martyr from illmatching bodyparts.


A worthy successor to the stab in the back, and the protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Now...which Reichstag shall they try to burn first?
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 11:25 pm
Then again, there are always the truly ineducable.....
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