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Slobodan Milosevic found dead in his cell

 
 
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 12:13 pm
...and that's all I know as of now. Just heard it on the radio. I don't tend to be mean, in fact I believe everybody is good at his/her core, some people just get corrupted on the way... but I wish Milosevic lived long enough to see the end of his trial. He, in a sense, embodied the ICTY, the tribunal that prosecutes genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity in former Yugoslavia. Here is a link to one of the longer recent articles I just fond online from Reuters:

LINK
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talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 02:07 pm
Daq:
He was a diabetic so it probably destroyed his body. His previous privileged position prolonged his life but a prison cell denies him those little extras that mitigated the effects of diabetes. The same situation faced by Yasser Arafat.
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 04:52 pm
Shocked, I was, when I heard this on the radio. At first I thought they were talking about the guy last week.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 07:04 pm
I was completely caught off guard, too. He had something with his heart, too; he was asking to be allowed to go for treatment in moscow, but the Court denied it. Oh well. I'm not sorry he's dead, but he should have waited a few weeks.... is that an evil wish?
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 07:06 pm
They found a bloody towel in the cell....
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 07:15 pm
Really? I have just gone through a bunch of articles, but haven't seen that anywhere. They all say he died of natural causes. Can you share a link, cj?

<I also don't like the fact that he died today, as I have to finish an article I'm writing on Serbia and Kosovo. Now this mixes things up for me...grrr>
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 07:25 pm
It was a joke Dag. Sorry, it was tasteless. But that seems to be my MO.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 07:27 pm
hmmm. sorry, i didn't get it.
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 07:34 pm
You still look good in a towel.
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 08:04 pm
I wish he'd have gone throught the whole trial. I wonder how much money was spent on the trial before his death.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 08:28 pm
it was millions of dollars. or euros. now the serbs are claiming that the court secretly killed him. poisoned him or whatnot. right. after they pumped all this money into seeing the man convicted.

some are also saying that the justice has not run its course. i bet, however, than many survivors breathe a little easier when this man is no longer breathing the same air. plus there is a ton of work for the tribunal ahead. Hopefully Milosevic's death won't diminish the tribunal's standing for long. It will surely have to find balance quick.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 08:44 pm
Actually, For Daggles especially, I came across this article in Foreign Policy, and I was very inerested in your response.

This seems as good a place as any to post it, since it has become germane to this discussion:



It is now in Foreign Policy archives, so I shall do a big precis:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3372


Think Again: International Courts

By Helena Cobban Page


March/April 2006

Criminal tribunals in places such as Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia were supposed to bring justice to oppressed peoples. Instead, they have squandered billions of dollars, failed to advance human rights, and ignored the wishes of the victims they claim to represent. It’s time to abandon the false hope of international justice.



“International Courts Help Achieve Peace”

No. The 1993 and 1994 U.N. Security Council resolutions that established the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY) and its sister court for Rwanda (ICTR) both said the courts would contribute to the process of national reconciliation and to “the restoration and maintenance of peace.” Sadly, that has not happened.

In The Hague, the ICTY’s most famous indictee, Slobodan Milosevic, has successfully used drawn-out courtroom appearances to perpetuate the feelings of hatred still harbored by many Serbs. Few Serbs, Croats, or Bosnians think that the ICTY has helped achieve reconciliation. The fragile peace in that region is the product of international troops and diplomacy, not judges and lawyers. In Rwanda, fewer than 36 percent of people polled in a 2002 survey said that the ICTR has promoted reconciliation in their country. And the International Criminal Court’s (ICC) announcement that it would investigate atrocities in Sudan has not ended violence there.

What’s worse, modern tribunals have been prolonged and expensive. ...the ICTR had handed down judgments for only 25 individuals. More than $1 billion has been spent on the tribunal so far, or about $40 million per judgment. By contrast, South Africa’s truth commission processed 7,116 amnesty applications for less than $4,300 per case. In postconflict Mozambique, programs to demobilize and reintegrate thousands of former combatants cost about $1,000 per case. Rwandan community leaders aren’t shy about saying that the more than $1 billion the United Nations has so far poured into the ICTR could have been better spent.

“Today’s International Courts Are the Legacy of Nuremberg”

Not really. Supporters of today’s international criminal tribunals say that their work builds on the post-World War II tribunals in Nuremberg and, to a lesser degree, Tokyo. As a matter of legal doctrine, that is true. The category of “crimes against humanity,” for example, was developed at Nuremberg and is now a central element in many prosecutions. But there is a critical difference between now and then.

The courts in Nuremberg and Tokyo were part of a broader political project that aimed to rehabilitate the occupied countries socially and economically, not simply to try guilt or innocence or hand out harsh punishments. ......


By contrast, the international courts for the former Yugoslavia, Rwanda, and the new ICC in The Hague operate under civilian law and provide generous protections to defendants. The result is a ballooning of the courts’ timelines and costs. It took the ICTR 10 years to complete the same number of trials that Nuremberg conducted in less than a year. The trial of Slobodan Milosevic is now in its fourth year. Nor have these societies been able to make a clean break with their past. The protracted and always polarizing exercises that are today’s war crimes trials cannot serve the decisive political and social function that Nuremberg did.

“War Crimes Tribunals and Truth Commissions Advance Human Rights”

Not always. War crimes tribunals and truth commissions are well-meaning responses to ghastly atrocities. But the assumption that they advance human rights rests on a deep failure to recognize that nearly all of today’s atrocities are committed in the anarchic, violent atmosphere of war zones. Any strategy for limiting atrocities must prioritize the pursuit of providing a stable, sustainable end to armed conflicts.

In some instances, threats of prosecution can actually impede peacemaking, prolong conflict, and multiply the atrocities associated with them. Consider Uganda. In July 2004, the ICC’s chief prosecutor—responding to a request from the Ugandan government—launched a judicial investigation into the situation in the north of the country, where the Lord’s Resistance Army (LRA) has sustained a barbaric insurgency for some 18 years. In April 2005, two dozen community leaders from northern Uganda went to The Hague to urge the prosecutor to hold off. One delegation member was David Onen Acana II, the chief of the dominant tribe in the war zone. He and his colleagues argued that their communities’ traditional approaches would be far more effective than international prosecutions in ending the violence. In October, the Ugandan government, which had escalated its campaign against the LRA, announced that the ICC had issued arrest warrants against five top LRA leaders. LRA fighters responded by stepping up attacks against civilians and aid workers—just as Acana had warned.



Many successful, rights-respecting peace accords—including those in Spain and Mozambique—were built on tacit agreements not to look back. ....

“Victims of War Crimes Demand Prosecutions”

Only sometimes. When people in rich, secure countries advocate the prosecution of war criminals, they often claim to be acting in the interests of victims. But the actual preferences articulated by survivors of atrocities are varied, and often differ from what many activists suppose.

Because most atrocities these days are committed during violent intergroup conflict, most survivors seek first and foremost an end to the fighting and to regain basic economic and social stability. That is no small matter. Nations have found various ways to deal with perpetrators of violent acts, and throughout history many of these methods have given priority to the reintegration of wrongdoers into normal, nonviolent existence. In Mozambique, the 1992 peace accord that ended 15 years of civil war mandated a blanket amnesty for all those who committed war crimes. It also provided for the demobilization of fighters from both sides and their reintegration into civilian life. In 2003, I talked with a high-level perpetrator who, after the war, participated prominently in the political reintegration of his country. When I spoke with him, he was about to finish his law degree. Nearly all the Mozambicans I talked to between 2001 and 2003 expressed great satisfaction with the 1992 amnesty. Most said they could not imagine prosecuting people who had committed wartime atrocities. “If we did, the whole nation would be on trial,” one man said. Satisfaction with amnesties can be found elsewhere. In South Africa, researchers found in 2001 that more than 75 percent of black citizens were satisfied with the work of the truth commission—which offered complete amnesties to former perpetrators who met its conditions.

Is the cumbersome machinery of an expensive international court operating in The Hague what the people of war zones need most? Of course, there are some victims who demand prosecutions,....But those who want to help the survivors of atrocities should first ask broad sections of society in an open-ended way how they define their own needs and how they define justice........[and] should be guided by the answers to those questions rather than by the simple assumption that prosecutions are always helpful.


“Giving Amnesty to War Criminals Encourages Impunity”

Where’s the proof? Post-genocide Rwanda has been dedicated in its pursuit of war crimes prosecutions. But it has borne that country little fruit. At one point when Rwanda was still trying to prosecute all those accused of participating in the 1994 genocide, more than 130,000 of its 8 million citizens were detained. Yet President Paul Kagame has also kept all major elements of society, including the judiciary, the government, and the media, completely under his thumb. .....

By contrast, when Mozambique and South Africa ended their internal conflicts in the early 1990s, they enacted widescale amnesties—and in both countries, the rule of law quickly improved. In each of them, political leaders opted to move past the violence and injustices of the past and to focus on the tasks of social and political reconstruction. ......


“War Crimes Prosecutions Deter Future Atrocities”

The evidence is weak. Proving deterrence is, admittedly, a tough task. Not many leaders document their intent to commit atrocities, let alone the fact that they decided against them for fear of prosecution. But there is important evidence against the proposition that war crimes prosecutions deter atrocities. Consider Milosevic. He was warned explicitly on several occasions about the threat of prosecution. He had witnessed the ICTY indict the leader and top general of the Bosnian Serbs, and he’d seen NATO troops arrest war criminals in Bosnia. Still, he decided to proceed with abuses in the restive province of Kosovo and, ultimately, the ethnic cleansing of most of its Kosovar Albanian inhabitants in 1998.......


“The World Needs the International Criminal Court”

No. We can predict that the ICC will be no more effective than the international courts for the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda in improving the lives of war-zone residents who are its primary stakeholders. That is, not very effective at all.

In a criminal trial, two sets of facts—those of the prosecution and those of the defense—do public battle with each other. Those competing facts are probed and examined in detail and a winner and loser are ultimately decided. When such a trial concerns events that took place in recent memory, in a society that’s still highly divided and deeply traumatized, the trial itself too often exacerbates existing political rifts.

That was the case with the ICTY and ICTR, and it risks being true of the ICC, too. The ICC shares with the two ad hoc courts the attribute that—unlike the Nuremberg and Tokyo tribunals—it exercises jurisdiction without being part of any broader administrative body that is responsible under international law for the welfare of the people within its domain. The prosecutor and judges of the ICTY and ICTR answer to the U.N. Security Council, and their counterparts at the ICC answer to the assembly of states that ratified the 1998 Rome Statute. That gives these courts an indirect line of accountability, if any, to the communities they aim to serve.

Meanwhile, these war-shattered communities continue to live under the day-to-day control of their national governments. In the case of the former Yugoslavia, this fact has made it hard (and, in the case of wanted war criminals Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic, impossible) for the ICTY to arrest some of its highest-ranking indictees. In the case of the ICTR, the Rwandan government’s control over most of the witnesses and physical evidence involved in the court’s cases has given the government a huge bargaining chip. It has used this power to force the ICTR to halt its investigations into well-founded accusations that Kagame’s supporters also committed atrocities. In the ICC’s work thus far on Uganda, the Ugandan government has similarly been able to deter the prosecutor from pursuing cases against pro-government forces.

The idealists who supported the ICC’s creation hoped that it would help check the power of governments and improve the well-being of much-abused people. There is little to suggest it will do either.




Helena Cobban is a columnist for the Christian Science Monitor and an author of the Transitional Justice Forum blog. Her book on justice in Rwanda, Mozambique, and South Africa will be published by Paradigm Publishers in 2006.





As I said, I found this fascinating, and would be interested in your thoughts, Dagmaraka, and of course those of others.


Meanwhile, of course, he could hardly have been left uncharged, one would have thought!



And, I note, Russia appears to have been supportive of him? Why?


And exactly what treatment could he have received in Russia that he could not have in Holland?

Except being released, one assumes.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 08:59 pm
Well, I couldn't possibly disagree more with her.
These are arbitration tribunals, and to compare them in efficiency with domestic courts is, to put it diplomatically, foolish.

Where she sucked those slogans out of, I don't know...but forget that. I'm not even going to go into how badly it is written.

But for some of the arguments... to claim that tribunals brought nothing for the transition of rwandan society or those of former yugoslavia is not true. When I did interviews with people from Sierra Leone, Rwanda, and Bosnia and Herzegovina, they all, without an exception, shared a primal need for some sense of justice. These tribunals are mostly symbolic, but that symbol is powerful and important for a wounded community.

ICC is also not the same as ICTY and ICTR. It is a permanent court, structured differently, selects cases differently... Not saying that either one of the three is terribly fast or gets the job done right, but hey. I want to see a plausible alternative. If Mrs. Cobban shows me one, she can be dismissive all she wants. Isn't it easy to just criticise.

There's a lot more that i found outrageous, but I actually have to finish my own article on Serbia and Kosovo tonight...

nimh?
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 09:03 pm
Oh, to your questions: Russia has always been supportive of Serbia. Before communism, even during the wars of 1990s. Plus Russia does not like the idea of tribunals... with their own history of blood on their leaders hands it gets intimidating. Like the U.S., I think it's a matter of machoism - nobody is going to put US on trial outside of our sovereign borders... Hence the covert comradery with Milosevic. Plus they like to stick it to the West as well. Just for the heck of it.
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talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 10:15 pm
I was indirectly involved with Kosovo. I even emailed Clinton on strategy. He is a dumb ass regarding military matters. He dodged the draft and though he is smart on many matters he's clueless on the military.

Milosevic when he gained control of Yugoslavia he resurrected the ethnic enmity that that was suppressed by Tito. Yugoslavia being composed of Bosnians, Serbs, Croatians, Albanians, Slovenians. The Serbs are Greek Orthodox while the Croatians are Catholic, Albanians Muslims. Slovenians are probably Protestants. Not sure what the Bosnians were probably Catholic. The animosity developed during previous conquests by Turks, Austro-Hungarians and Russians. The Serbs are allied with the Russians while the Bosnians and Croatians with the Austro-Hungarian faction while the Albanians are holdovers from the Turks. I think they are all Slavs. Additionally the Turks recruited the Yugoslavians into their army ranks known as Janisaries thus the 'traitor' tag adds to the mix.

The conflicts started with Bosnia and Croatia then there was a peace settlement. Then Milosevic started another with the Albanians.

That's my rough and ready take on Yugoslavia.

Link:Yugoslavia

Wikipedia on Yugoslavia
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 10:22 pm
It's a time of turmoil for Serbia and Kosovo - with both Milosevic and Rugova suddenly dead. Time for a new generation of leaders, though that may not necessarily mean better times, either.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 10:28 pm
" When I did interviews with people from Sierra Leone, Rwanda, and Bosnia and Herzegovina, they all, without an exception, shared a primal need for some sense of justice. These tribunals are mostly symbolic, but that symbol is powerful and important for a wounded community."

I hope you can expand more on this, and other stuff, later, Dagmaraka.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 10:35 pm
I worked at UNHCR - UN High Commissioner for Refugees in Bratislava in 1996 - during the height of exodus of Bosnian refugees. Part of my job was to receive them at the office, do the initial interview, write their stories down...
Years later, a year and something ago actually, I was writing a big article on 'failed states, - for which I interviewed a few people from Rwanda and Sierra Leone, including a human rights lawyer. We had a three hours long conversation about justice after genocide. In fact that particular interview was so good that I should just post the whole thing. I don't think I can though, without his permission, but maybe I'll just quote a few of his thoughts later. Tiawan Gongloe was his name.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 10:42 pm
Re: Slobodan Milosevic found dead in his cell
dagmaraka wrote:
...and that's all I know as of now. Just heard it on the radio. I don't tend to be mean, in fact I believe everybody is good at his/her core, some people just get corrupted on the way... but I wish Milosevic lived long enough to see the end of his trial. He, in a sense, embodied the ICTY, the tribunal that prosecutes genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity in former Yugoslavia. Here is a link to one of the longer recent articles I just fond online from Reuters:

LINK


So now we have a case of Arkancide at the Hague...

I'd have paid a hundred dollars to watch the spetznaz rescue Milosevic. Two hundred if they could have shot the Hague to pieces in the process...

The only thing in the world this guy was ever guilty of was trying to protect his country from the same kinds of people who other Europeans are just now finding out they're going to ultimately have to heave out of Europe.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 10:45 pm
" I should just post the whole thing. I don't think I can though, without his permission, but maybe I'll just quote a few of his thoughts later."


That would be great.
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