Can the US bring peace in the Middle East?

Suicide bomb in Jerusalem, helicopter gunship attacks in Gaza. Further proof (as if we needed it) that this administration's photo-op diplomacy does not work.

And a personal gripe here: if I hear one more 'roadmap' quip (CNN's Leon Harris said that 'the roadmap is being folded and put back in the glove compartment'), I'm gonna go Elvis on my TV.

This is no time for smartass little jokes. People are dying, and the quacking heads are trying to come up with the most insipid 'road map' comment.

I posit that is is quite simplistic. Retaliatory indicates retaliation against involved individuals. When "retaliation" hits a 50 year old housewife (not used for argumentum ad misericordiam) it's hard to see as retaliation.

Most of the time the "retaliation" is at a target Israel wants to hit and they use the Palestinian terrorism to avoid really bad PR fallout.



Daniel Seaman the director of Isreal's government press office.



Sorta. This was a special case. Seaman said that "Isreal's leaders" (on quotes because I do not know exactly who he is talking about) gave the military permission to assasinate both Rantisi and Yassin several weeks ago. But they held off because of the Aqaba summit and because Abu Mazen was trying to negotiate a ceasefire.

But their restraint ended and Seaman said:

"But we saw several things in the past week (speaking of the Hamas walkout and defiance of the ceasefire call)".

"Then they murdered 5 Israelis. We did not target anyone and they murdered 5 Israelis. So we acted".



What on eath are you talking about? I blame Israel for their poor timing in an assasination attempt. I blame them for saying that they will dismantle settlements then taking down empty towers.



Again. Huh???



Ahh now I'm starting to get you.

No I do not "blame" him for this. I think it was not a smart move.

Palestinians need the border to be open but they have no right to it. It also opens up Israel for attacks and each attack by either side severely reduces the chances for peace (at the moment I am very doubtful that peace will be acheived in this attempt).

I think it was a bad move. He should do things to rectify situations in which Isreal is in legal violation. The settlements on land that is not their own is commonly recognized as an act of war. He is making a big show about the settlements but he is razing few occupied settlements and has not indicated any intent to dismantle the settlements that had Israeli sanction (yet that are still illegal and still part of what the US demanded they dismantle).



I would demand that they use common sense. The US administration said that their attack did not help their security goals at all. The US is not inclined to be biased against Israel.

In this case I think the Isrealis helped make peace more distant.

But ok, I'll bite.

What to do:

Unilaterally withdraw from the Palestinian territories.

That includes ALL settlements on territory that is not their own (for the sake of simplicity I assume that we both agree that they have settled plenty of land that is not theirs, if you think it is theirs then we are wasting time).

Fence off the border (without trying to extend it).

Do not let ANYONE in and out until the negotiations are completed.

cicerone imposter
No doubt. It came from the Jeruselem post. However, does that make it invalid?

I don't agee with much of what you say, Steve; in fact, I disagree quite forcefully on most of it.

But you were right on the mark with these comments.

We cannot undo the past -- but we can at least try to be ethical about the future. We should disqualify ourselves from any participation in negotiations over there -- and keep our noses out of it.

Israel can take care of itself without our help -- and if it can't -- then it should be allowed to fall on its own.

I don't think that will happen -- but for us to pretend we are impartical negotiators in this issue is hypocrisy on a galactic scale.

and if they eliminated each other, think of the collective sigh of relief, although in public everyone would express their outrage and sadness..........

What ever happened to "two wrongs don't make a right?" c.i.

In the third air strike against Hamas in 24 hours, Israeli helicopters on Thursday fired missiles at a car carrying activists of the militant Islamist group, witnesses said.
Three passengers were in the targeted vehicle in the Sheik Radwan neighbourhood of Gaza City, a Hamas stronghold. The car was engulfed by flames.
The missile strike came a day after a Palestinian suicide bombing that killed 16 people on a Jerusalem bus followed by Israeli helicopter attacks that killed 11 people in the Gaza Strip.

Israel and the radical Palestinian group Hamas have declared an all-out war on each other, promising more bloodshed after the bus bombing and retaliatory strikes on Gaza plunged the conflict into one of its most violent phases.

The deadly exchange shattered hopes for implementing a US-sponsored peace plan that was launched last week at a summit in Aqaba, Jordan convened by US President George W. Bush.

Israeli public radio said the army had been ordered to "completely wipe out" the Hamas movement, which claimed responsibility for the suicide bombing which killed 16 other people on a crowded bus in central Jerusalem.

The order was given after Israeli Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz met with his generals, the radio said.

Craven
I can't summurize what the writer claims is history. I wouldn't know what to leave out.

Craven

That attack was planned but not carried out until the attacks on Isreali's
Do you think the bus attack was actually in response or it would have taken place regardless.

Hamas Has Long Threatened Israel - and Threatens More Attacks
Sixteen Jews were murdered on a bus in downtown Jerusalem yesterday - yet much of the American media have once again begun talking of a "cycle of violence" and mocking the mutual "finger pointing." The IDF, however, doggedly trying to get its point across, explained once again today that well before its attempted assassination of Hamas leader Rantisi on Tuesday, Hamas was trying to suicide-bomb Israelis all over the country. Twenty such would-be murderers were caught by Israeli forces in the past month - half of them since the Aqaba summit over a week ago.

In addition, the terrorist who committed yesterday's carnage departed on his mission even before the attack on Rantisi.
At a meeting held at the Defense Minister's office last night, it was decided that all Hamas leaders are potential targets for Israel, including Sheikh Ahmed Yassin.

Sherri Singer, daughter of New Jersey State Senator Robert W. Singer of Lakewood, New Jersey, was wounded in the attack as well. Out of surgery and speaking in a broken voice from her hospital bed, she said, "President Bush, who I voted for and who I respect, does not understand what goes on here. I'd like to see him come to this country, and visit and talk with Americans who moved here, and see what really it's all about, before he decides to put a peace plan into action. I just think it's sad that he doesn't have any clue about what we're going through as Americans here." Sherri came to Israel to volunteer with victims of terrorism. Her father is on her way over to Israel to visit her

C.I

When did it become wrong for a government to protect it's people.

Following a timeline of attacks may seem simplistic, but to me is the only accurate way of seeing who is offensive and who is retaliatory.

Craven-- You say Israel's response to the terrorist attacks were pre-planned.
1) Where do you get your information?
2) Do you mean pre-planned, as in the list of targets Israel keeps as proposed actions in the face of terrorist attacks?

It is hard for me to understand how you can blame Israel for taking steps toward the peace process, as if it is somehow bait for the Palestinians....? That is like blaming the attractive woman for her rape. Many Palestinians were furious that the borders kept them from being able to work and visit relatives. I cannot see how anyone, in good conscience, can blame Sharon for opening the borders, yet I remember you alluding to that position somewhere on these Israel/Pal threads.

Anyone-- What the Hell is Sharon to do after a terrorist attack? What would you, as an Israeli citizen demand of him?

Walter
The inference was that Israel struck the first blow, when in reality Hamas and the other thugs refuse to abide by a cease fire and still insist the Israel has no right to exist. I should also note that the first acts of terror after the Bush meeting were struck by the Palestinians. Everyone seems to ignore that. And the PA says they helpless or unwilling to do anything about controlling the thugs. What would one expect Israel to turn the other cheek?

I would presume that the author of that article would have some bias with a name like Katz. c.i.

Bi-Polar Bear
Think of EU's uproar if Israel eliminated the Palestinians. And think of the glee if the Palestinians obliterated Israel.

I think it was ever so kind of Menachen Begin to send a warning to the King David hotel before he blew it up. Was that so any Jews could get out?

Sophia, your simplistic naivety is touching but throws no light. You forget that Britain was acting on a League of Nations/UN MANDATE for Palestine. Look up the history of the Irgun and Stern gangs. Find out about Jewish zionists and their links with the nazis. Do a little research on war criminal Sharon and his friendly dealings with Hamas (as a political enemies of Arafat).

To infer as you did that Jews arrested in Palestine by the British authorities were fearful of extermination is grossly insulting. Britain had just fought a debilitating war AGAINST nazism.

Israel has no future while men like Sharon are in control except with further bloodshed and violence.

The words of George C Marshall must come back to haunt American administrations. He warned Truman about the consequences of allowing a specifically Jewish state in the middle east.

But Truman went ahead anyway and made the catastrophic mistake of recognising Israel. The world would be a better place for Arab and Jew alike had he not done so.

has anyone considered that if we were to lay back and let these two terrorist states have at each other with no interference that peace bewtween them would be achieved? :wink: No one left to fight.

Hamas opted out of the Road Map, because they claimed Abbas gave up too much. I think they need to include the Hamas in any negotiation, or all will be for naught. This back and forth killing will accomplish more killings and nothing else. Gotta start someplace, and that's square one. c.i.

And, if the Pals would call ahead and warn the Jews, I would feel better about the comparison.

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The Bombing of the King David Hotel

The King David Hotel was the site of the British military command and the British Criminal Investigation Division. The Irgun chose it as a target after British troops invaded the Jewish Agency June 29, 1946, and confiscated large quantities of documents. At about the same time, more than 2,500 Jews from all over Palestine were placed under arrest*. The information about Jewish Agency operations, including intelligence activities in Arab countries, was taken to the King David Hotel.

A week later, news of a massacre of 40 Jews in a pogrom in Poland reminded the Jews of Palestine how Britain's restrictive immigration policy had condemned thousands to death.

Irgun leader Menachem Begin stressed his desire to avoid civilian casualties and said three telephone calls were placed, one to the hotel, another to the French Consulate, and a third to the Palestine Post, warning that explosives in the King David Hotel would soon be detonated.

On July 22, 1946, the calls were made. The call into the hotel was apparently received and ignored. Begin quotes one British official who supposedly refused to evacuate the building, saying: "We don't take orders from the Jews."1 As a result, when the bombs exploded, the casualty toll was high: a total of 91 killed and 45 injured. Among the casualties were 15 Jews. Few people in the hotel proper were injured by the blast.2

In contrast to Arab attacks against Jews, which were widely hailed as heroic actions, the Jewish National Council denounced the bombing of the King David.3

For decades the British denied they had been warned. In 1979, however, a member of the British Parliament introduced evidence that the Irgun had indeed issued the warning. He offered the testimony of a British officer who heard other officers in the King David Hotel bar joking about a Zionist threat to the headquarters. The officer who overheard the conversation immediately left the hotel and survived.4
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*Wonder if they saw shades of Hitler in this action? When they start rounding up Jews, who knows what they must think?

I think both attacks were conducted by people who simply needed an excuse to try to "moralize" and justify their attacks.

Nither attack was truely retaliatory as neither attack struck the people responsible for the killings.

In both cases innocent people died and in both cases there were people who were salivating at the idea of attacking and waiting for an excuse.

You spend a long post on trying to mock those who mock the mutual finger pointing yet you seem to make no attempt to illustrate how either the finger pointing or Isreal's attacks can forward the peace process.

You are doing your damndest to prove that Isreal's attack did not provoke the subsequent attacks under the premise that the subsequent attack would have come anyway.

Though all of that you make no attempt whatsoever to evaluate the methods used.

Au, do retaliatory Israeli attack that are poorly timed (right when Isreal faces the most pressure to negotiate with Palestinians) and poorly executed (using inordinate force) forward the peace process?

Au, that is complete bull. I suspect you know that (though you'd probably term it an "exaggeration").