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Can the US bring peace in the Middle East?

 
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Jun, 2003 02:46 pm
All that would do is create a warzone as the A-Rabs would think it was open season on Israel. The only reason Israel exists as it does today is that the US has its back.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2003 05:50 am
steissd

Hasn't Israel already got nuclear weapons? I think it was to prevent a nuclear war that we just invaded Iraq for you.

As for the "settlers", if you guaranteed that no Arab would ever be allowed back, that would just be the incentive needed to kick those that remain out.

I am deeply pessimistic about the future for the middle east. I don't see where there is any room for compromise when both sides claim they have a God given right to the same patch of land.

The recognition by Truman of the State of Israel 15 minutes after it was declared was probably the biggest blunder the US has made since the end of WW2. He should have listened to the wiser counsels of Marshall and Forrestall.

I have come to the conclusion that Israel is a failed state, and that the land formerly called Palestine should be administered by the UN for the benefit of all those who live there and for the greater good of mankind. Of course that is just wishful thinking. Why compromise and live in peace when you could win all by continuing war?

The Zionists will continue their fight to build greater Israel. The Palestinians will continue to resist by suicide bombings. What happens when the road map fails, Arabs are driven out of the West Bank and Islamists from Pakistan start supplying nuclear weapons?
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2003 05:57 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
The recognition by Truman of the State of Israel 15 minutes after it was declared was probably the biggest blunder the US has made since the end of WW2.


You've said a mouthful there--the biggest disaster ever to have arisen from frantic electioneering . . .
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jun, 2003 05:58 am
McGentrix

If you wish to be taken seriously, I suggest you stop using pejorative terms such as A-Rab, and refer to other peoples with the same respect as you would expect them to do to you.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jun, 2003 11:06 pm
The rest of the article.

Is he wrong?
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Walter Hinteler
 
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Reply Sat 21 Jun, 2003 01:37 am
Well, although I don't think, we can really judge, who is "right" or "wrong", the US publicly condemns Hamas, but privately rails at Israel.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jun, 2003 06:59 am
It truly does not matter if we are right or wrong about Hamas. We are not neutural in our activities in the Middle East -- and we should not be holding ourselves out to be competent as negotiators for that reason.

Would any American think it proper for the chief outside peace negotiator to be France? How about Brazil or Argentina?

We should get out of there -- and let them handle this themselves.
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steissd
 
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Reply Sat 21 Jun, 2003 07:04 am
France can hardly be considered neutral. It has almost 10 percent of Muslim population, and any politician is strongly dependent on their vote (cf., Jews constitute not more than 2 percent of the U.S. citizens). Brazil and Argentina are too much loaded with their internal problems to take a burden of peace mediators (I think I need not list all the economic problems affecting the mentioned countries).
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jun, 2003 08:14 am
steissd wrote:
France can hardly be considered neutral. It has almost 10 percent of Muslim population, and any politician is strongly dependent on their vote (cf., Jews constitute not more than 2 percent of the U.S. citizens). Brazil and Argentina are too much loaded with their internal problems to take a burden of peace mediators (I think I need not list all the economic problems affecting the mentioned countries).


Exactly!

And that is why I say we should butt out.

None of those countries I mentioned would be considered neutral by any reasonable standard -- AND NEITHER ARE WE.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jun, 2003 08:31 am
I would agree wholeheartedly with Frank, if I thought a feeding frenzy on Israel wouldn't ensue, resulting in ethnic cleansing.

We've always been the six foot kid, standing behind the three foot kid, who's presence is enough to keep the pack of four foot kids from jumping the little guy. You know what happens when they catch the little guy alone...

I'm not apologizing for that analogy. It's early for me, and just started coffee.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jun, 2003 10:26 am
We are supporting the only Democracy in the middle east. I don't understand why anyone would have a problem with that.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jun, 2003 10:48 am
McGentrix wrote:
We are supporting the only Democracy in the middle east.


Could you please verify 'Middle East' and 'Democracy'?

(Middle East', from the Britannica:"the lands around the southern and eastern shores of the Mediterranean Sea, extendingfrom Morocco to the Arabian Peninsula and Iran and sometimes beyond. The central part of this general area was formerly called the Near East, a name given to it by some of the first modern Western geographers and historians, who tended to divide the Orient into three regions. Near East applied to the region nearest Europe, extending from the Mediterranean Sea to the Persian Gulf; Middle East, from the Gulf to SoutheastAsia; and Far East, those regions facing the Pacific Ocean."
same source, 'Democracy': "The term [democracy] has three basic senses in contemporary usage: (1) a form of government in which the right to make political decisions is exercised directly by the whole body of citizens, acting under procedures of majority rule, usually known as direct democracy; (2) a form of government in which the citizens exercise the same right not in person but through representatives chosen by and responsible to them, known as representative democracy; and (3) a form of government, usually a representative democracy, in which the powers of the majority are exercised within a framework of constitutional restraints designed to guarantee all citizens the enjoyment of certain individual or collective rights, such as freedom of speech and religion, known as liberal, or constitutional, democracy.")
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jun, 2003 11:13 am
Main Entry: id·i·ot
Pronunciation: 'i-dE-&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin idiota ignorant person, from Greek idiOtEs one in a private station, layman, ignorant person, from idios one's own, private; akin to Latin suus one's own -- more at SUICIDE
Date: 14th century
1 : a person affected with idiocy; especially : a feebleminded person having a mental age not exceeding three years and requiring complete custodial care
2 : a foolish or stupid person
- idiot adjective
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jun, 2003 12:22 pm
McGentrix wrote:
We are supporting the only Democracy in the middle east. I don't understand why anyone would have a problem with that.


Even if this is correct, McG, it would still mean we are supporting Israel.

How can we be honest brokers of peace between the two parties if we are on the side of one of them?

Best we get out of there as brokers.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jun, 2003 01:00 pm
Well, McGentrix, since you certainly didn't want to insult me or someone else, but posed a reply in a wrong thread ...

The USA (and others) are e.g. supporting Turkey, (the USA are even more sure about the democracy there than some EU-states).
Most people worldwide believe Turkey
a) to be a democratic state,
b) to be situated in the Middle East.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jun, 2003 04:38 pm
Huh! I stand corrected! I never realized Turkey was a Democracy. Well, I guess it is a good thing we back them too!

Thanks Walt.

I think it is very important that the US continues backing democracies all around the world.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jun, 2003 05:05 pm
I posted this on another forum, but felt it appropriate here. I received it from a friend in Australia. On the subject of our consistency in being inconsistent. c.i.
***************************

re:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/sectionindex2/0,5746,ausletters1^^TEXT,00.html

Max Henreich's bald assertions on the question of WMDs (Letters, 20/6) got me thinking. If, instead, the United States had invaded Iraq on the pretext of "liberating the Iraqi people", would the world have been more accepting of pre-emption? Let's look at the implications.

Suppose that there had been an overwhelming groundswell of world public opinion in support of liberation, brought about by an equally concerted (yet sound) campaign by the "coalition of the willing". Despite massive popular support, however, international diplomacy would certainly have opposed any intervention, simply because many governments would see it as potentially signing their own death warrants.

But, even if the cause proved universally popular, most people would have still remained deeply sceptical of American motives. Afterall, the United States is hardly known for sticking its neck out in the name of human rights. Indeed, its history of intervention in other nations' affairs proves quite the opposite: civil liberties are completely dispensible whenever American interests are threatened. Therefore, the age-old question would ring louder than ever: "What is the REAL reason?"

Further, as a rule the people of United States do not support risky foreign adventurism for "no good cause", that is, that which has no benefit to the U.S. itself. And without a cause, the lives of a thousand Iraqis would never have been worth one American life. Bush would never have even tried.

Finally, without the pretext of "self-defence", the United States could never have received United Nations endorsement to threaten another country, leave alone to invade it. National sovereignty has been a tenet of international law since the formation of nations.

To argue, therefore, that the outcome ("liberation") justifies the means (lying and deceit) is to totally ignore the reality of international politics. More seriously, it is an abuse of world public opinion and international law, and it has destroyed any lingering credibility the United States government may have had.

In short, what was done in Iraq can -- and will -- only be done this once. Now, given the Americans' proven record of lying to achieve their doubtful ends, the world cannot be expected to believe any claim the superpower might make in the future -- no matter the veracity of the claims or the level of threat. What then?
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jun, 2003 05:23 pm
The standard explanation given for every execution carried out by Israel against Palestine is "a most wanted leader", based on the rate of these exectuions carried out, they must recruit 3 more for every one killed:

HEBRON (Reuters) -
Quote:
Israeli troops shot dead a top Hamas official in the West Bank city of Hebron Saturday, striking another blow to peace initiatives battered by two weeks of spiraling violence.

Witnesses said they saw soldiers shoot at a car, killing Hamas leader Abdullah Kawasme in what Palestinians described as an "assassination." Security sources said troops attempted to arrest Kawasme.

A political source said Kawasme was one of Israel's most wanted militants responsible for a series of attacks on Israelis, including last week's bus bombing in Jerusalem that killed 17 people.
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jun, 2003 09:51 am
OK, Dyslexia, it is a war, and Kawasme is an enemy that has not surrendered (hence, he is not a POW). Hamas may stop killing of its leaders by declaring ceasefire (Israel agrees in advance to make a reciprocal decision), it does not, therefore its leaders are legitimate target.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jun, 2003 02:00 pm
steissd

What you call "legitimate" is labelled by others "extrajudicial killing" (Kofi Annan) or "matter of concern" and "an an incident that could be an impediment to progress" (Colin Powell), just to quote some
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