Life: Looking Back, Looking Forward

Whoa nelly.

The wagon-circling is excellent though and a sign that you're getting through to people, IMO.

Thanks, soz. I have a few things to work on. My mentors say I'm too motherly. I'm all with the "sweety" and stuff. I do have a hard time being mean...but I happened to hear a kid spreading a rumor about me. "Ms. ___ is an atheist." He'd asked me the day before is I was a Christian. I didn't feel like answering, so I gave some fruity, floaty answer. Now, I'm an atheist. Not a popular group in these hyar parts. I should start wearing pentagram necklaces...

...anyway, I tore the little bastard a new one... But, the next day, it was as if it never happened.

And black. Lots o black. Eyeliner too.

Yeah, that was my biggest weakness as a teacher. Got better at it but I was hopeless at the beginning. I was student teaching in a school that was very structured and regimented and kids were raring to grab whatever freedom they could -- that was really not my background and I was sucky at that whole part of it.

I'd appreciate your insights.

My fiance's only child is his daughter, who is 12. They've always had regular visitation - mostly three, sometimes four days a week since she was a baby - and more during her mother's extended vacations... When I met him, he seemed completely devoted to her - it was one of the things that attracted me to him. He spent a lot of one on one time with her, sang her lullabies every night she was with him - and was possibly overly concerned about her academics. Their homework sessions could be characterized as problematic - he was very intense and she was frequently upset about it. Over time, I heard him use profanity in her presence and directed at her. I told him about my concerns, but he seemed unable to do anything about it - though he was contrite and verbalized a desire to stop. I suggested Anger Mgmt therapy, which he has tried with a few therapists. His incredibly challenging work schedule caused him to miss therapy appts and eventually be "dismissed" by therapists - I've been living with him through the last two therapy attempts, and I can vouch that he'd lose his job if he hadn't missed some appts. He currently works 12 - 14 hours a day and some Saturdays...

(Coming to my problem) In April, he was driving her to school - he yelled at her, used profanity, yelled out of the window to an older kid taking too long in the crosswalk, and drove in a way that scared her. She complained to her school counselor - who called Child Protective Services - who said the mother should seek full custody. His daughter has refused to see her dad since then - the parents have been to court - and although they awarded him joint legal custody - she says she hates him and doesn't want to ever see him again. He's paying a great deal for her therapy - and has pressed for joint therapy to find a way to handle conflict resolution with her and help them foster a healthy relationship. They are poised for joint therapy, starting in two weeks.

My problem is she loves me and I love her and she talks to me online - but when she does - she downgrades her dad to me. While using profanity to a child is wrong and something to be stopped - it is not a reason to throw your dad out of your life. (my opinion) He has never physically abused her; yet, she talks about him with rhetoric that seems like it should be reserved for an abusive father. "He has to pay for what he's done to me." "He's scarred me for life." It sounds like something she's heard her mother say... and yes, the mother has criticised her dad to her for years.

She wants to see me, and I anticipate more downgrading of her dad. I think it sends a message of tacit approval of her opinion for me to listen passively to her criticisms of her dad. Because of her age and what I consider to be her delicate emotional state, I have held my tongue so far. She wants to have lunch - and part of me wants to see her - but another part wants to avoid seeing her and in effect, avoid being put in a position to hear, and maybe respond mildly to, criticisms of her dad. As a parent, I know what I'd do if this was MY child - but I am in a position to either maintain at least one good, healthy connection to our home with her - or I risk turning her away from me as well - and making it harder for her dad to reunite with her. I feel a lot of pressure, and I'm not sure what I should do. My instinct is to speak what I consider to be the truth to her about balance - reminding her of the good aspects of her dad - but I don't want to seem to turn a blind eye to the aspect that requires improvement.

Her dad wants me to see her if she desires.

(Note: Child Protective Services dismissed "abuse" charges, and the judge refused the mother's request for a Restraining Order.)

What would you do? Remain silent - or risk turning her away with measured redirection?

Hmmm...

That's tricky.

I think there can be a middle way, balance, that you're intuitive enough to figure out. Let her vent, let her feel that she can talk to you and that she can trust you. But also choose moments to say exactly what you say above.

I think you absolutely should not minimize what happened -- my dad's anger, when I was 12, was a genuinely scarring experience. (Just words, nothing physical.) Your fiance messed up, full stop. I think there's a way to acknowledge that while also leaving open the window that while that sucked, and he shouldn't have done that, and good thing he's apologized 'cause he shouldn't have done that (he's apologized, right?), he's also her dad and he loves her and he'd like to have the chance to make things up to her.

I think if she's generally being unfairly mean to him while talking to you about other things, you can do some challenging/balancing, while definitely treading carefully and making sure she feels safe and respected.

Bless you, Soz. Taking your words to heart. Validating feelings is important...and finding a careful way to remind her of her dad in totality is also. "Choose moments...."

I'm sorta familiar with this, re my, er, family member, who had serious gripes, legitimate ones, re both mom and dad, but way more re mom. I listened to her and gave my opinions but in dad's case, also went on that he loved her and was trying his best to have her grow up with good judgement, as he saw it. I agreed about his rigidity (I'd have to kill him) but that he meant/means well. Mom was more problematic to talk about, but there was love and hurt there from child to parent and harder to see love from the mother (who would call me when completely blotto on something or other) to child... and while I agreed re the problems, I wanted to have her understand human weakness doesn't always mean someone doesn't love you.

I think I was the last person to talk with her mother alive, she called me from the ER.

Family member is quite grown up now. Rolls her eyes at her father, but loves him still.

So, I think talk would be a good thing, or at least it would be over time. F'm and I talked over years.

1. honesty is the best policy.
2. honesty requires rationality
3. 12 year olds aren't rational.

Thank you, osso. I'm seeing that my bent toward avoidance is self-indulgent. I have to work on putting myself in the child's shoes....and also trying to think of the Big Picture for her. I can't opt out. I owe her a mom's care. I appreciate your help.

ha! I'm with you up to #2.... #3 is my hell.

Oy, that sure is a difficult situation you're in, Lash. As you know from your
own daughter, 12 is a difficult age for girls - hormones kick in, peer pressure
starts and if there isn't a strong family to tackle these issues, it can be detrimental to any girl.

You have observed and tried to stop your fiance when he got angry with his
daughter and used profanities towards her. He obviously has been listening
to you, however, my question would be: for how long has this been going on
before you came into his life and tried to stop his behavior? These
sort of abusive behavior doesn't come overnight an it won't subside overnight.
Could it be that his daughter has suffered from his emotional outbreaks for a lot longer than you think and know?

She trusts you and thinks you're on her side, which gave her enough confidence to stand up to her Dad. You should meet her and just spend
time with her without trying to convince her that she should see her Dad.
She will come around on her own time and her own terms, but in the
meantime, your fiance should start therapy again and work on himself
so he can show her that he's doing everything in his power to change his behavior pattern. She loves her Dad, she just needs time to regain her
trust in him.

On the other hand, you should let her know that you love her Dad and
that it hurts you when you hear her talk about her Dad in the manner she
does. You even can elaborate why you love him and the good traits he
has that made you fall in love with him. Perhaps this would counter act
the stories she's been hearing from her mother.

True, my f'm saw things from a four year old, seven year old, nine year old, eleven year old, fourteen year old, seventeen year old pov. She was pretty sharp, but still, a child wailing from her own place (in the theater of life). At this point, she has a range of perspective.

Thing is, I wasn't a parent. And you really aren't either, or maybe there will be a change there.. I was just me talking with her.

Oh, yea, CJ. (I'm trying to remember, where did that well spoken Oh, yea, come from in the first place. Probably music..)

Anyway, good post.

She has a mother.
She has a father.

Right now, she perceives her father as being a problem in her life. She doesn't need anyone else interested in the mother's spot in her life.

What she could probably use is an adult friend who is not trying to take on a parenting role (and I think it would be inappropriate to make any move in that sort of direction - could really muck up your fiance's shared custody situation if the young woman's mother gets any hint of you thinking this way).

I think CJ's really covered off the kind of role you could hope to have in her life.

Twelve is a tricky time - at the best of times.

Kids can always use more people in their lives who love them and listen to them. Love her, listen to her, maybe you can play a role in her learning to trust her father. He's got the big job to do there.

Perhaps at some time mom, dad, daughter and you will attend counselling together. Lots of tricky dynamics there.

As you could assume from my previous post, I agree.

Thanks so much, Beth and CJ. I guess when I say I owe her a "mom's care" - I mean being a responsible adult female with her interests above mine - and shepherding her in a healthy direction... I don't want to be her mother - but I want to be responsible to her as a young woman finding her way - above everything. I guess I used antiquated terms. But, the two of you have helped me to step back and consider why I put it as I did - and helped me relax about MY role a bit more. I don't need to "shepherd" so much.

CJ, your last paragraph made a world of difference for me. I'm grateful to you. And Beth.

When you're emotionally vested, you sometimes can't think of a simple solution. You're a good person, Lash and you'll succeed with both - your fiance and his daughter :-))

beth and cj. great advice

Don't over-intellectualize the whole thing, just provide the best environment you can (within reason).