Democracies and Mutual Respect

By the way, some schools are working to institute a program called, "The Community of Caring," which I think addresses LittleK's concerns.

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I have thought long and hard about this idea of mutual respect. I can honestly say that I had not a clue about the political leanings of any of my K through 12 teachers nor any idea about who they voted for or what they thought about whatever administration was in power during all that time. The same was true of the college experience through at least some of the 1980's. And yet we received a solid grounding in geography, history, government, practical law, literature, math, science, and the arts.

In other words educators of those days respected their responsibility to teach all aspects of their subjects and respected their students sufficiently to trust them to separate the wheat from the chaff without need or compulsion to indoctrinate them in sociopolitical ideology. Politicians of those days were politicians as much as they are now, but whether Democrat or Republican, they worked harder to represent all the people rather than just those they depended on to re-elect them.

Even with the cultural revolution of the 1960's and 70's, respect included tolerance for differences of opinion so long as people didn't make a big deal of their opinions. A forum dedicated to the fine art of insult would have been unthinkable for most.

Somewhere in the late 1980's that began to change and the disrespect eventually steamrollered over all society and to relationships between nations. We are the poorer for it I think.

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Breathtaking. Fox alleges that she has thought (it is always so hard to read that word in anything she writes) about the concept of mutual respect in deomcracy--and leaps on the Ital-massa-mort-gato band wagon, discussing what teachers may or may not do with regard to their political vierws and airing it with their students.

Do you have any remarks which are germane to the topic as it was introduced at the start of the thread, Fox? Or perhaps you just came here to ride one of your favorite hobby horses.

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plainoldme wrote:

mele42846 wrote:
Anyone who thinks that our colleges and Universities, especially those which are supposed to be the most desirable, have not been almost completely captured by left wing ideologies knows NOTHING about Education. We must remember that those who did the sit-ins at Harvard, Yale, U. of Chicago, Columbia, etc.form the core of the faculties in the most "desirable" schools.

How do you come by your knowledge? A friend just told me she is leaving her post at Harvard soon in part because the students are too right wing.

I am curious as to why it should matter what the politics are of the students, unless they are trying to indoctrinate other students in the classroom, but given the fact that they are not the teacher, I do not see how they could be doing that? If all students are given the opportunity to express their opinion, if the class is appropriately designed for that, let us assume it is a political science class of some kind, then I think it is appropriate for students to express their views whether they are left or right, actually probably more appropriate than having the professor teach her own views as a fact to be graded on. If the classes are not even related to politics, then the professor need not hold a political forum anyway.

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Re: Democracies and Mutual Respect

littlek wrote:

I'm reading about American schools: past, present and what they should be in the future.

In Deborah Meier's "The Power of Their Ideas: Lessons For America From a Small School in Harlem", the author basis an ideology on the idea that ".... mutual respect is the bedrock condition of a healthy democracy...." What do you think? Is it?

It was an interesting and new (to me) way of seeing something that seems so obvious. What, then, can be said about our current political life here in the US, where there doesn't seem to be much respect among factions on either side of the political spectrum? Or among ordinary citizens.....? (emphasis added, to point out what the topic of the thread is.)

PLEASE EXCUSE ME WHILE I SHOUT. I JUST THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA TO BRING THE THREAD AUTHOR'S QUESTION BACK INTO VIEW IN ORDER TO FACILITATE A DISCUSSION OF THE TOPIC OF THE THREAD.

As opposed to the attempt to turn the thread in to a discussion of the cnoservative paranoia about education intstitutions.

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Mele - my question is really about the concept that mutual respect is a foundation of a healthy democracy. My discussion of schools and teachers was a way of introducing the topic. Sorry to have not been more obvious.

And, I'll let ebrown's post serve as my explanation as to why I said your post was a rant. He always seems to state well what I can't state well. I also don't mind rants, but it would be nice, for me, to discuss the more-focused topic.

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Thanks setanta....

I should start analyzing everyone's educational philosophies as an excersize for myself.

So.... the question remains.

Is mutual respect a major foundation of a healthy democracy? What does that mean, exactly? A respect for the administration? The process? The constitution? For each other, as citizens?

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I thought that is precisely what I addressed LittleK but some apparently disagree. I indeed believe respect at all levels is a major foundation of a healthy democracy and I mean here that it must be a respect for differences of point of view between those of good intentions.

I do believe there is something pervasively insidious and destrutive when people think that insults and contempt for others is the only way to get one's point across. It wounds the spirit and erodes our confidence and inspires militancy. In time it divides society into "us against them" and makes constructive problem solving difficult if not impossible.

It perhaps starts when children are indoctrinated with concepts of contempt instead of thoughtfulness and oozes into the media and public forums everywhere.. When there is no respect for authority, a principle, an office, a symbol, etc. I think a kind of ugly anarchy sets in.

And when we feel sufficiently threatened by perceived intentions of other citizens, we are ripe to follow a leader with presumed answers but who intends us no good whatsoever.

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plainoldme wrote:

By the way, some schools are working to institute a program called, "The Community of Caring," which I think addresses LittleK's concerns.

Hmmmm.... Sounds warm and fuzzy. However, a few red flags come to mind, and perhaps here is another example of why not simply teach the subject matter, such as the 3 R's, instead of having the schools thrust themselves into the role of judge and jury for every aspect of a little kid's life? Where is the respect for the private lives of the children and their parents?

Just my opinion, but as the family breaks down, the schools are attempting to fill the void. Is that possible? Is it proper?

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I never accept that "moral decay" horsie poop. If people are less civil and considerate (and i have no reason to believe as much), it is certainly not a product of the decay of institutions. Children learn courtesy and consideration in the home--if they are not taught it there, no school will be able to inculcate it years after that aspect of education ought to have begun.

Pundits have complained, literally for thousands of years, about moral decay and the death of civility in society. That this is so is evidence to me that blue-noses are always with us, and when society does not appear to them to meet their personal and arbitrary moral standards, they complain of a decline in morals without providing the evidence that any moral "good ol' days" ever existed. Two thousand years ago, Cicero complained O tempora, o mores (Oh, the times, the morals!), and i see no reason to think that Rome's society had decayed since days of republican virtue for which there is actually no evidence. Thucydides makes the same sorts of observations in his History of the Peloponnesian War, nearly 2500 years ago.

People have gullibly followed scurrilous politicians who ranted about the times and morals for millenia. People have claimed there was a decline in public civility since some chimerical "good ol' days" for millenia. That suggests to me that such civility has never really existed, and that people are prone to make false claims of a deteriorated virtue when their own moral sensibilities are offended.

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Foxfyre,

This is not the first time our nation has been deeply divided politically.

Had you been alive in the time of slavery, would you have had the same opinion. Would you have been angry at the slaveholders (or the abolitionists)? Would you have participated in illegally helping the slaves. Would you have agitated for their freedom?

If you were a teacher in the time of slavery would you have challenged the common beliefs of the day which included white superiority (as a necessary justification for a society which accepted slavery)?

You seem to be against standing up for what you believe.

I like to think that in the time of slavery, I would have done everything in my power to stop it. This includes challenging the social beliefs. If I were a teacher, I would certainly use facts to raise doubts in my students.

Currently there are several things I feel very similarly about. The ability to ruin lives by disappearing fathers and sons without trial is one of the worst.

I think it would be irresponsible for any human being to accept slavery, or anything that she finds morally inacceptable. An education system that supports the prevailing social views without encouraging questioning is not good for Democracy.

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ebrown_p wrote:

Foxfyre,

This is not the first time our nation has been deeply divided politically.

Didn't say it was, nor was I even concerned with political divisions.

Had you been alive in the time of slavery, would you have had the same opinion. Would you have been angry at the slaveholders (or the abolitionists)? Would you have participated in illegally helping the slaves. Would you have agitated for their freedom?

No idea since I have no idea who I might have been all that time ago, nor do I see what relevance it might have to this topic.

If you were a teacher in the time of slavery would you have challenged the common beliefs of the day which included white superiority (as a necessary justification for a society which accepted slavery)?

I think teachers in the time of slavery were teaching reading, writing, and arithmetic and would have considered it inappropriate to deal in controversial issues in the classroom.

You seem to be against standing up for what you believe.

What would possibly cause you to to think that from anything I have said?

I like to think that in the time of slavery, I would have done everything in my power to stop it. This includes challenging the social beliefs. If I were a teacher, I would certainly use facts to raise doubts in my students.

Currently there are several things I feel very similarly about. The ability to ruin lives by disappearing fathers and sons without trial is one of the worst.

I think it would be irresponsible for any human being to accept slavery, or anything that she finds morally inacceptable. An education system that supports the prevailing social views without encouraging questioning is not good for Democracy.

Again, what relevance do you see in the issue of slavery and disappearing fathers and sons and a discussion on modern day respect and/or civility?

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Setanta wrote:

I never accept that "moral decay" .....

True, moral standards have always been a problem, but to deny that there are trends from time to time is to ignore the evidence. Where I grew up, there was less crime, less broken marriages, less child abuse, and less dishonesty than there is now in the very same community. Cars and houses used to be left unlocked. Meth labs usually were not located down the street or up the road. Business deals were closed on a handshake. Not now. No marriage contracts then. No drug tests were required for selected jobs. Businesses generally did not require bars over the windows and security alarms. No security guards were required in the shopping malls or in the schools. And politics was less poisonous and bitter. I could cite more evidence if you need it.

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Foxy,

My point is that there are ideas in our current political landscape that I despise-- and yes, there are people in our political community that I despise.

For example, I have no reason to show respect for Tom Tancredo. Not only is he an opportunistic demagogue, his ideas are racist and, if they are implemented, will cause harm to people I care about. To me, he is a dispicable person.

If I met him in a social setting, I would probably tell him this to his face in no uncertain terms, unless I was restrained for the sake of people I care about.

There are plenty of Americans that, based on what they believe and stand for, I would not allow in my house. I have no interest in talking to them. I certainly have nothing nice to say to them.

I was using slavery because it is a "settled" issue and I was hoping to get my point across without getting into an argument about specific issues.

Based on my current politics, I probably would have been a strong abolitionist. I would have felt about people who supported slavery the same way that I feel about nativists, or people who support the use of torture now.

I "respect" the fact that I need to share a country with these people. But I have no interest in being respectful. I may show a cold civility if a social situation requires it, but no more.

I don't think this prevents us from being in a Democracy. But I care about the justice of the system... not about the people.

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Okie, you could do research on your premise that things were better back in the day. I agree that some would have been better when you were young, but somethings are better now. If only we could have all things be better.

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Mutual respect is in direct conflict with social dawinism. I think that is at the root of of the war against ourselves. If the idea of mutual respect (which I believe to be the same as unalienable rights) can be discredited as utopian dreaming we can digress to "might makes right" opening the door for the strong to unjustly subjugate the weak.

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Amigo,

I question your assertion that giving respect is the same as giving "inalienable rights". I think that they are quite different.

I believe that everyone deserves basic rights, including free speech, due process, etc. etc.

I don't believe everyone deserves respect.

Do you respect KKK members? I don't. I still think they are entitled to basic rights.

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Yes, I respect the KKK even though their ideals claim that I do not warrant the same respect.

That I would not respect the KKK would discredit my own ideology.

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hnh... 'social darwinism'. Would that be the drive that makes people back stab their fellows for a better position in life?

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Amigo wrote:

Mutual respect is in direct conflict with social dawinism. I think that is at the root of of the war against ourselves. If the idea of mutual respect (which I believe to be the same as unalienable rights) can be discredited as utopian dreaming we can digress to "might makes right" opening the door for the strong to unjustly subjugate the weak.

I think you are using the term, "respect" in a couple of different contexts here. Respect, or admiration, needs to be earned, so that I would not respect the KKK, because they don't deserve respect for their views on race. Now, if someone is prejudiced in thought, but does not break the law, their privacy still needs to be respected, but that does not mean we respect their views in that regard. If they are honest in their business dealings, we can respect that aspect of their character.

I am not sure about how you refer to "unalienable rights," but I think of such rights as those that are endowed to us by the creator, and hopefully affirmed by our laws and constitution.

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Democracies and Mutual Respect

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