Democracies and Mutual Respect

<sigh> I dunno.

All nations practise national interest first. It is the diplomats who give the image of respect. Democracy is the best system for a nation to progress for it gives everyone a stake in any national undertaking and so pull together. When a select group takes over and pushes democracy aside the nation begins a slow slide downhill as it creates tension and infighting.

<hopping up and down>

I read that book! I read that book! It's a good 'un!

Anyway, in terms of your question, I think one of the main problems is the lack of respect flowing from politicians to the people who elected them (or, especially, people who DIDN'T elect them but who the politicians still represent).

Soz - it is a good'un. I realized as I read that my elem school was much like Central Park East. I talked to my mother and many of the basics are the same. And, my school was founded before the one at CPE.

Anyway, still pondering the premise of my thread, myself.

Is there anything in the book about college professors and K-12 teachers respecting the political views of their students and the parents of the students, and thus stay clear of advocating political views in the classroom? I admit I went to school a few decades ago, K-12 and college, and I do not recall any teacher imposing his or her views or even revealing them in more than an off handed comment here and there. It certainly was not part of the curriculum. Just wondering.

I think in spite of the factions and divisiveness in our current political landscape, we respect the system. In general we accept the elections without violence, allow people to express their views. At least we do all of these things without violence or the fear of civil war.

I can't say I respect the Republican core, if you mean I think they are decent human beings or that their beliefs have any moral or logical merit. I do respect their right to express their beliefs (however twisted) vocally and electorally.

Is respecting the system good enough when you have no respect for the other side?

I hope so.

Great point, ebrown.

Okie - I don't know. I don't remember anyone directly or indirectly being politically one-sided in any classroom I attended k-12. But, I also think that political current events are great things to use as subjects. Idealy, teachers are supposed to lead kids into making their own decisions, so, I guess they should refrain from bashing or even endorsing politicians......

Okie,

I think there is a big difference between K-12 and college. In K-12 education, particularly public education, teachers should be very careful dealing with political or cultural topics.

College is a completely different ball game. College students should be challenged since once you have the basic high school knowledge and incultruation, being exposed to uncomfortable ideas in crucial to being educated. I think this goes for both public and private institutions.

Ideally, I would like high school to be kind of a middle ground. High school kids need to be intellectually changed. In our current culture, agreeing on what this means is problematic.

When I was teaching in high school, the boundaries were pretty clear (and I feel were pretty appropriate).

Re: Democracies and Mutual Respect


There is, IMO, a general decline in the area of "respect" in all areas of society. The political landscape is a reflection of the overall loss methinks. The political area and the diplomatic corps (which are both deeply entwined) have always been very big on decorum and I suspect that we've yet to see anything close to rock bottom yet.

The lack of respect in politics lags the general lack of respect in society as a whole by 15 or 20 years by my guess.

Oh, I have no doubt that this isn't rock bottom!

Anyone who thinks that our colleges and Universities, especially those which are supposed to be the most desirable, have not been almost completely captured by left wing ideologies knows NOTHING about Education. We must remember that those who did the sit-ins at Harvard, Yale, U. of Chicago, Columbia, etc.form the core of the faculties in the most "desirable" schools.

Anyone who thinks that our colleges and Universities, especially those which are supposed to be the most desirable, have not been almost completely captured by left wing ideologies knows NOTHING about Education. We must remember that those who did the sit-ins at Harvard, Yale, U. of Chicago, Columbia, etc.form the core of the faculties in the most "desirable" schools.

mele, could you tie your rant to the topic a little?

I have a feeling he is the ubiquitous 'massagato', 'morkat' or whatever.

Certainly-- You began with--I'm reading about American Schools,past, present and what they should be in the future.Okie followed up with--Is there anything in the book about college kids and K-12 students and teachers respecting the views of their students?

I am curious as to why you labeled my post a "rant"? If you can tell me, I will be happy to revise it. If not, it stands!!!

My experience has been that when some encounter a post which spells difficulty for them,they label it.

I will" unrant "it.But please show why it is a rant given your opening statement followed by Okie's comment.

rant- definition- "to speak in a wild or vehement way".

Mele Let me give you a clue.

1. One-sided ideasYou are presenting a political view that is far out of the mainstream. (and I have no problem with that-- I do the same at times).

2. Blind attacksYou accuse anyone who disagrees with your view of knowing "nothing about Education". This is ironic since you are addressing someone studying to be an educator and several people who have careers in education.

3.Illogical connections You list three of the most prestigious educational institutions examples of bad education.

4.Off topic You are way off topic -- you have not related your points have nothing to do with Mutual Respect or Democracy.

These, my friend, are the hallmarks of a good rant (not that there is anything wrong with that).

But you make my point about Democracies and Mutual Respect (which is the topic at hand).

The political views you and okie express are very different than mine. In fact, I don't respect your views at all-- I find them extreme and devoid of logic and it is hard for me to understand why an intelligent human being would hold them.

You may very well feel the same about my point of view.

The fact is that you and I can exist in the same Democracy. We both accept the system enough to make it work.

This does mean that your kids probably won't be joining mine at Harvard or Yale. But they will have to live together in the same Democracy... same as we do now.

I think Ranting is a part of this- so I won't hold it against you.

The concept has very much the character of a good idea which does not exist in the real world. People have often claimed that the United States is headed into decline because of moral terpitude, just as was the case with the Roman Empire. Leaving aside the numerous idiocies implicit in any direct comparison of the United States to the Roman Empire, the concept rests upon a bedrock assumption of republican virtue in both entities at the outset, from which both subsequently deteriorated.

However, there is no evidence in the historical record of such virtue. The class of Plebs twice abaondoned the city altogether in the first century of the Roman repubblic because of the outrageous impositions of the Patres, the latter of whom, panicked, made whatever promises were necessary to get the common people--without whom their city could not survive--back on more or less good terms. They consistently broke those promises, and the history of Rome, as written by Roman scholars, is one of constant strife between the classes, and the clans within the classes.

The early history of the United States differs not one whit. In the first cabinet of the first President (Washington, for those reading here who are not Americans or who are a little slow), the Secretary of State (Jefferson) worked live a very beaver to undermine the programs and the personal reputation of the Treasurer (Hamilton). Hamilton was subsequently killed in a duel by Burr, the casus belli of which arose from political bickering in the state of New York. One of the crucial factors in impelling the states to a constitutional convention in the first place had been events such as Shays' Rebellion, when returning veterans of the Revolution found their property had been seized for arrears of taxes, thus not only impoverishing them, but effectively disfranchising them in systems which required property-ownership to secure the vote.

The notion that mutual respect has ever formed the basis of this, or of any other republic, democratic or otherwise, is more than a little naive.

This is not a rant. I regard it as a factual observation.

The reason I asked the question earlier in this thread in regard to the subject was simply out of curiosity. I wanted to know the answer to the question, as I thought it pertinent in light of the recent case of the teacher at Overland High School in Aurora, Colorado. I don't even know anything about the school or the book, but I thought the mention of decency and courtesy was a pertinent subject.

As a citizen that attended high school in the 50's and 60's, I do not recall any teacher discussing current politics and expressing any controversial opinion in regard to the current politics, and seeking to teach it as a fact to us. So I would contend that there was most definitely a mutual respect and courtesy between people of that generation, at least in the schools in regard to politics. I saw it and I experienced it. It seems that today, courtesy and respect for each other does not exist as it should in the public schools. I can almost excuse some political discussion in colleges and universities, although I think that is also completely out of control, but I feel that teaching ones political views in high school is totally inappropriate, indecent, and lacking of proper respect, both for the students and the parents and citizens that support the schools. The schools belong to the citizens, not the teachers.

Unfortunately, the teachers unions and the bureaucracy in place is not going to change easily. Any effort to correct the situation will be met with cries of being unfair and dictatorial, and with accusations of censorship, etc. We already see that with the Colorado situation, with the teacher preparing to fight any possibility of being terminated with an attorney to sue the school if necessary. And apparently, he is back at the job with a virtual pat on the back from the school.

How do you come by your knowledge? A friend just told me she is leaving her post at Harvard soon in part because the students are too right wing.