Why does God permit suffering?

that is one person's opinion

~~~~~~~~

Merriam Webster has a few more suggestions



link


Death, pain, distress, disability, handicap ... these are rarely caused by discontent.

Exactly. It's mine. That's why I said it.

I've come to those thoughts through experience, though--not speculation. I'm speaking of both mine and those that I shared with other people during hard and painful times.




Trust me, I'm no shunner of dictionaries. In fact, I have true devotion for them.



No doubt. That's not what I said, anyway. I said 'suffering,' not pain, grief, or distress. Not all who bear pain consider it suffering. We all have grief visit all too often. Not everyone considers it suffering in the sense that God or something/someone else must be blamed or questioned as far as motive:

Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, ambition inspired, and success achieved.
- Helen Keller

We shall draw from the heart of suffering itself the means of inspiration and survival.
- Winston Churchill

The salvation of the world is in man's suffering.
- Wlliam Faulkner

Deep unspeakable suffering may well be called a baptism, a regeneration, the initiation into a new state.
- George Eliot

If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment.
- Marcus Aurelius

Go without a coat when it's cold; find out what cold is. Go hungry; keep your existence lean. Wear away the fat, get down to the lean tissue and see what it's all about. The only time you define your character is when you go without. In times of hardship, you find out what you're made of and what you're capable of. If you're never tested, you'll never define your character.
- Henry Rollins

We would never learn to be brave and patient if there were only joy in the world.
- Hellen Keller

One shall have to undergo suffering to reach truth. That is why it is said that truth is eternally victorious.
- Rig Veda

What makes one heroic? -- Going out to meet at the same time one's highest suffering and one's highest hope.
- Friedrich Nietzsche

I'll be out of action for a day or two.

Behave yourselves!

I read this passages near to that you say...

I f y o u s a y : "You proved that everything about Divine Determining is good and beautiful. Even the evil that comes from it is good, and the ugliness, beautiful. But the disasters and tribulations in this world refute that statement."

T h e A n s w e r : O my soul and my friend who feel severe pain out of intense compassion! The facts that all virtues and perfections return to existence and that the basis of all rebellion, calamities, and defects is non-existence are a proof that existence is pure good and non-existence, pure evil. Since non-existence is pure evil, circumstances that either result in non-existence or give an inkling of it, also comprise evil. Therefore, life, the most brilliant light of existence, proceeding through different circumstances, finds strength; it encounters varying situations and is purified; it takes on numerous qualities and produces the desired results, and enters many stages and displays comprehensively the impresses of the Bestower of Life's Names. It is due to this fact that certain things happen to living creatures in the form of griefs, calamities, difficulties, and tribulations whereby the lights of existence are renewed in their lives, and the darkness of non-existence draws distant and their lives are purified. For arrest, repose, silence, idleness, rest, and monotony are all, both in quality and as conditions, non-existence. Even the greatest pleasure is reduced to nothing by monotony.

I n S h o r t : Since life displays the impresses of the Most Beautiful Names, everything that happens to it is good. For example, an extremely rich and infinitely skilful person who is proficient in many crafts, for an hour and in return for a wage, clothes a miserable wretch in a bejewelled, artistically fashioned garment. This garment he made in order to make the miserable man act as a model and to display the works of his art and his extensive wealth. He works the garment on the man, gives it various forms, and alters it. In order to display every variety of his art, he cuts it, changes it, and lengthens and shortens it. Can the poor man receiving the wage be justified if he says to the person: "You are giving me trouble. You are making me bow down and stand up. By cutting and shortening this garment which makes me more beautiful, you are spoiling my beauty"? Does he have the right to tell him: "You are acting unkindly and unfairly"? Thus, like him, in order to display the impresses of His Most Beautiful Names, the All-Glorious Maker, the Peerless Creator, alters within numerous circumstances the garment of existence He clothes on living creatures, bejewelled with senses and subtle faculties like eyes, ears, the reason, and the heart. He changes it within very many situations. Among these are circumstances in the form of suffering and calamity which show the meanings of some of His Names, and the rays of mercy within flashes of wisdom, and the subtle instances of beauty within those rays of mercy.

Welcome to the forum, kev. I'm sure you will have fun here.

Your post is quite esoteric and may take many moons to fully comprehend.

But first may I ask:

Why is 'In Short' longer than 'The Answer'?

Thank you. I ve fun here .. Because I think there are real religious or unreligious people in this forum who looks for reailities..

My post is esoteric. These lines r not mine but think they r mine bcs of I read them so carefully and want to live.. These r from my masters book and selected for your post.

''in short'' is longer than answer bcs of it is aid to whole chapter also related with answer. Sorry, English is not my native language. I only intended to share lines with who gives worth them.

To answer the question directly

a. Lets assume that suffering does indeed exist, often of innocent people, and lets assume we ALL wish it did not.

b. Lets further make the assumption for the sake of argument that God exists and that he is knowing of the suffering that takes place.

fair enough?

Then my answer is as follows

I personnally dont have a problem with the word God. However because I cannot define God adequately, not even to myself, I dont tell other people about God, what he likes or dislikes, where he spends his holidays or what food is good or bad. But other people most certainly do. They ascribe a whole load of characteristics to God, about what they think he is like

All Powerful
All Merciful
Omnipotent
Omniscient
Ever Present
Creative
Preservative
Annihilative

etc.


So again for the sake of argument, lets assume all those adjectives apply to God.

Muslims on this board have told me many times that NOTHING happens without the will of Allah. So let us think about suffering.

Through sheer joy and delight a little girl is running headlong down a corridor straight towards a plate glass door that she has not seen. She hits it, is blinded and disfigured for life. Suffering right?

Now God KNEW what was happening, but let it happen. Or perhaps he did not know. So God perhaps is not omniscient. But if that were true he would not be God, or at the very best would only be an under-god, not knowing absolutely everything that went on.

All merciful? All of us would beg for mercy for the little girl. Surely if he is all merciful...just a little bit...but no. It happened. And something similar will happen again. Tomorrow the next day, all the time. ALL Merciful? That cannot be true.

Of course god could have seen what was happening, and in an instant made the plate glass like rubber. But he didnt do it. Perhaps he couldnt do it...omnipotent? I dont think so. How many times have you seen a little girl smash into a plate glass door and the glass suddenly behaves like rubber? Let me guess....never. correct, it never happens like that, sadly.

If we assume that god saw what was going on, and in his infinite mercy decided to stop it by eliminating the impact, he couldnt do it.

Ok perhaps God didnt have enough warning on this one. He was kind of taken off guard, unusual for one so omniscient, but we all have our moments..

So we all pray to God to save the girl. Not this girl of course, she's already in intensive care having had the glass removed from her eyes, but the next little girl. Tomorrow's victim.

Not only do we pray, but we regulate. We insist on removing or making safe all plate glass doors. We tell children not to run. We do everything we humanly can to ensure nothing like this ever happens again. YET IT DOES.

There is only one conclusion. The words and adjectives above do not apply to God. God as described by those words does not exist.

I am so sad for this little baby .... We care about her .. I understand what you want to tell me.. But God gives these words and adjectives to himself as in Gospel Books.. Also every creation shows us He is like that... Thanks for your interest.. I am happy to hear thoughts also opposite to my believing. Concious was given to us to think and accept..Otherwise there r many angels who accept Divine Unity directly , but human must think on everything and than believe...Perhaps these lines may be usefull for us..


When making a precious bejewelled and embroidered garment, a skilful craftsman employs a poor man in return for a commensurate wage. In order to display his skill and art, he dresses the poor man in the garment, then measures it and cuts it, and lengthens and shortens it, and making the man sit down and stand up, he gives it various forms. So does the wretched man have the right to say to the craftsman: "Why are you interfering with this garment which makes me beautiful, and altering and changing it? Why are you making me stand up and sit down, disturbing me and causing me trouble?"
In exactly the same way, in order to display the perfections of His art through the embroideries of His Names, the All-Glorious Maker takes the essential nature of every sort of being as a model, then He clothes them all and especially living creatures in the garment of a body be-jewelled with senses, and inscribes it with the pen of Divine Decree and Determining; thus demonstrating the manifestation of His Names. In addition, He gives to every being a perfection, a pleasure, an effulgence, in a way suitable to it and as a wage.
Has then anything the right to say to the All-Glorious Maker, Who manifests the meaning of, the Lord of All Dominion has free disposal over His realms as He wishes: "You are giving me trouble and disturbing me."? God forbid! In no way do beings have any rights before the Necessarily Existent One, nor can they claim them; their right is to carry out through offering thanks and praise, what is required by the degree of existence He has given them. For all the degrees of existence that are given are occurrences, and each requires a cause. Degrees which are not given are possibilities, and possibilities are non-existent as well as being infinite. As for instances of non-existence, they do not require a cause. For example, minerals cannot say: "Why weren't we plants?"; they cannot complain. Their right, since they have received mineral existence, is to offer thanks to their Creator. And plants may not complain asking why they were not animals; their right is to offer thanks, since they have received life as well as existence. As for animals, they may not complain that they are not humans; the right over them rather, since they have been given the precious substance of spirit in addition to life and existence, is to offer thanks. And so on.

I dont think so. Jesus Mohammed and many other MEN have used those words to describe God. My point was not to avow my disbelief, but to illustrate the absurdity of trying to characterise the ineffable.

One kind of reality about HIS adjectives and names...

We see that things and particularly living beings come into existence of a sudden, instantaneously. But, while things which appear suddenly out of a simple substance should be simple, formless, and without art, they are created with an art and beauty requiring much skill, they are decorated with painstaking embroideries requiring much time, and adorned with wonderful arts requiring many tools. Thus, just as each of these instantaneous, wondrous arts and beautiful combinations indicates the necessary existence of an All-Wise Creator and the unity of His dominicality, so in their totality do they show in most brilliant fashion an infinitely Powerful, infinitely Wise Necessarily Existent One.

I share your awe at the majesty and beauty of the Universe. Thats what touches on the divine for me. But saying it was just created by God in a week or so actually diminishes that awe inspiring majesty.

What you creationists fail to grasp is that if you look at the escarpment face of a mountain you say Hey thats absoultey incredible, how could that be by random chance? It mus tbe by design. Then you go round the back and find a long slope which you can walk up quite easily, but takes you a couple of billion years.

Btw Kev I think you ought to meet up with Spendius, you will get on well.

The World's day and galaxy's days are different..
So all universe life is 6 or 7 days.. but according to one galaxy .. If I know which galaxy I would know last day.....

If you were to truly know the mind of god I would argue you would be the equivalent of a god. Which is why I find the verbiage some spout about god to be the height of anthropomorphic hubris.

Verbiage:
An excess of words for the purpose; wordiness.

Anthropomorphic:
Attribution of human motivation, characteristics, or behavior

Hubris
Overbearing pride or presumption; arrogance

Sun and mirror are different things..

If the mirror is good enough you will have infinite knowledge so you could build your own sun.

Problem is no one even knows what a mirror is, they just claim they do.

WE DON'T STOP IN UNİVERSE AND CAN'T BE SUN....

You see that just as mirrors, shining objects, fragments of glass, and even bubbles, reveal the various sorts of concealed beauty in the sunlight; and with their different capacities and their change and renewal, renew its beauties; and by reflecting and refracting the light, make known the hidden beauties of the sun and the seven colours in its light; so, without cease, in order to act as mirrors to the sacred beauty of the All-Beauteous One of Glory, the Sun of Pre-Eternity and Post-Eternity, and to the everlasting beauties of His infinitely lovely Most Beautiful Names, and to renew their manifestation, these fine creatures, these lovely beings, these exquisite artefacts, come, then depart.

Sorry kevnmoon, your mirror allegory was barely able to sustain itself prior, now that you have started in with your preachy self-serving overtly religious cliches, any semblance of congruency totally evaporated.

Any excuse to pound the pulpit.

Mr Chumly..
English is not my native language, these lines r from book.. I tried to write some passages only for to express God.

OK have fun!

Kev, I've found the most effective posts are ones in which everything is kept as short as possible.

Short words.

Short sentences.

Short paragraphs.

Posts no longer than those which fit on a computer screen, if at all possible.

Doesn't always turn out that way.

Some posts are riddled with recondite rationalizations and erudite to the point of obfuscation